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Post by mao on Aug 29, 2018 6:15:36 GMT -5
I agree that the cleric was Christian, I however have never used them this way, The idea of praying to God in game to act in the game is not a good thing. YMMV Where does he even imply such a thing? Why would anyone do that? The implication is: If you are RPing a cleric you pray to your god. |
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Aug 29, 2018 7:45:51 GMT -5
The blogger is correct, the religion of the Cleric is clear, if not explicitly named. I have seen people try to de-Christianize the Cleric and remove the religious symbols from the game and say they don't affect vampires because the vampires were of different religions(which is mythologically ridiculous). All this does is eliminate any reason to have a cleric. The game (OD&D) by design has Clerics (Law)(implied Christianity) and anti-Clerics (Chaos) (all other religions). A lot of people have a problem with that because they don't believe in good and evil (in the real world). That is why virtually all rpg forums are anti-Christian and this forum is not which is one of many things that make us unique. One thing that is an interesting side note is that as TSR removed all the devils & demons from AD&D to appease the fanatical fake Christians of the Satanic Panic Cult they also undercut the whole moral foundation of the Cleric Class. The original Cleric is NOT a heal bot and playing them that way misses the whole point of having the class in the first place. As a side note, while I love Paladins as I have said before I base them off of Solomon Kane from REH. Cleric IMC heal by laying on hands and it is not a spell that can be cast into melee which is what I have heard some people allow. I agree that the cleric was Christian, I however have never used them this way, The idea of praying to god in game to act in the game is not a good thing. YMMV I never heard of anyone praying in game until just a few years ago, that is not something we ever did, or heard of anyone else doing until pretty recently, it is not an old school thing. When I say Christian, that is the basis of the character, I didn't mean that we played them as straight up Christian, but we followed the trope that Christian symbols reign supreme against undead, not the anti-trope where they don't. As for the devils or demons, even when we played AD&D we never used them, that is IMO optional and it did not interest us, we just saw no reason to tell people that they weren't allowed storm the gates of hell (small h not cap H) if they wanted to. |
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Aug 29, 2018 7:51:38 GMT -5
The blogger is correct, the religion of the Cleric is clear, if not explicitly named. I have seen people try to de-Christianize the Cleric and remove the religious symbols from the game and say they don't affect vampires because the vampires were of different religions(which is mythologically ridiculous). All this does is eliminate any reason to have a cleric. The game (OD&D) by design has Clerics (Law)(implied Christianity) and anti-Clerics (Chaos) (all other religions). A lot of people have a problem with that because they don't believe in good and evil (in the real world). That is why virtually all rpg forums are anti-Christian and this forum is not which is one of many things that make us unique. One thing that is an interesting side note is that as TSR removed all the devils & demons from AD&D to appease the fanatical fake Christians of the Satanic Panic Cult they also undercut the whole moral foundation of the Cleric Class. The original Cleric is NOT a heal bot and playing them that way misses the whole point of having the class in the first place. As a side note, while I love Paladins as I have said before I base them off of Solomon Kane from REH. Cleric IMC heal by laying on hands and it is not a spell that can be cast into melee which is what I have heard some people allow. I don't think that I have ever played that way for any fantasy setting. Paganism is kind of the point of world-building isn't it? I mean there is a difference between historical gaming and fantasy. Exploring and creating plausable but fantastic religions is fun! Perhaps this is why I don't get along with the cleric class as written, I hate any implied setting forceing the game to act a way that it doesn't have to. There does need to be a class between Fighting man and Magic user, a defensive magic empowered warrior of the faith is perfect. I have seen very few people actually PLAY a cleric which has always kind of bummed me out. I always liked the trope of converting the pagans to the faith, and yeah creating fantastic religions is fun, they have shamans and witch doctors and spirit chiefs and ... I have never seen player reluctant to play a cleric, that always surprises me. The implied setting doesn't force me to do anything or the game to act in a certain way, I get to choose if I follow that or not. |
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Aug 29, 2018 7:53:56 GMT -5
I was glad to be rid of the whole named devils and demons thing; I'm too superstitious for that! I have no beef with creating a fictitious plane of hell perpetually at war. I can work with that! I never used that I find it silly, but I don't mind if other use it. |
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Aug 29, 2018 7:56:49 GMT -5
I was glad to be rid of the whole named devils and demons thing; I'm too superstitious for that! I have no beef with creating a fictitious plane of hell perpetually at war. I can work with that! I never cared for the using Goetia "demons" in fantasy RPGs, I don't care about Succubi or incubi but not the Goetia ones in my mind it ties D&D the Occult. Much like how I don't like using real world pantheons, create your own. I hate the fact that Paizo & WotC brought back Goetia "demons" and raised Asmodious to god status. The whole "conjuration of demons" we would never play out at all and raising any of them to god status goes against trope. Yeah, later stuff did put the Occult into the game, but that was not their originally. |
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Aug 29, 2018 7:59:00 GMT -5
Where does he even imply such a thing? Why would anyone do that? The implication is: If you are RPing a cleric you pray to your god. That is a new school invention of recent years, that was never done by anyone bitd AFAIK. There is not in game reason to go there and that implication does not exist in OD&D, that would fall under a house rule for specific referee. Calling them prayer books instead of spell books is a recent thing. |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Aug 29, 2018 11:33:12 GMT -5
I never cared for the using Goetia "demons" in fantasy RPGs, I don't care about Succubi or incubi but not the Goetia ones in my mind it ties D&D the Occult. Much like how I don't like using real world pantheons, create your own. I hate the fact that Paizo & WotC brought back Goetia "demons" and raised Asmodious to god status. The whole "conjuration of demons" we would never play out at all and raising any of them to god status goes against trope. Yeah, later stuff did put the Occult into the game, but that was not their originally. I'll quibble as both Demogorgon & Orcus were listed in Eldritch Wizardry, but it wasn't until AD&D 1e Monster Manual were Asmodius and others named devils included. That said, that inclusion was in the second to the last supplement in the OD&D product cycle so you are correct. I didn't get into D&D until 1e AD&D so that colors my viewpoint. |
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Post by El Borak on Aug 30, 2018 13:25:06 GMT -5
The whole "conjuration of demons" we would never play out at all and raising any of them to god status goes against trope. Yeah, later stuff did put the Occult into the game, but that was not their originally. I'll quibble as both Demogorgon & Orcus were listed in Eldritch Wizardry, but it wasn't until AD&D 1e Monster Manual were Asmodius and others named devils included. That said, that inclusion was in the second to the last supplement in the OD&D product cycle so you are correct. I didn't get into D&D until 1e AD&D so that colors my viewpoint. Eldritch Wizardry was not as in your face as the AD&D stuff was. |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Aug 30, 2018 14:12:59 GMT -5
I'll quibble as both Demogorgon & Orcus were listed in Eldritch Wizardry, but it wasn't until AD&D 1e Monster Manual were Asmodius and others named devils included. That said, that inclusion was in the second to the last supplement in the OD&D product cycle so you are correct. I didn't get into D&D until 1e AD&D so that colors my viewpoint. Eldritch Wizardry was not as in your face as the AD&D stuff was. That is true. |
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Post by onerom on Aug 30, 2018 14:48:28 GMT -5
I like the idea of Christianity as a religion of D&D world. If we think about it, Three hearts and Three lions by P. Anderson was probably the first source of inspiration for this game. In that novel the protagonist (a man from our world) is christian and christianity is well known in this fantasy world, even if it isn't specified how it comes in the world. Small curious note: the miniature of cleric from AD&D first ed. era had a cross in his hand! (photo from my collection). All in all, I think it would be interesting to include in the game a cult of light, like Howard's Mitra, halfway between the real and the fantastic, an ancient cult from our world helps to imagine something already known, but it remains fantastic, because it will be remodeled.  |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Aug 30, 2018 15:17:10 GMT -5
I like the idea of Christianity as a religion of D&D world. If we think about it, Three hearts and Three lions by P. Anderson was probably the first source of inspiration for this game. In that novel the protagonist (a man from our world) is christian and christianity is well known in this fantasy world, even if it isn't specified how it comes in the world. Small curious note: the miniature of cleric from AD&D first ed. era had a cross in his hand! (photo from my collection). All in all, I think it would be interesting to include in the game a cult of light, like Howard's Mitra, halfway between the real and the fantastic, an ancient cult from our world helps to imagine something already known, but it remains fantastic, because it will be remodeled. I am not opposed to the idea of at least using Christianity as the basis for the core religion of a D&D world, you have something like it in the Sigmar Cult in WHFRPG and a few other examples. But being that I am one of the few non-Christians here at this forum (I loosely define myself currently as a Deist) I am more open to polytheistic religions in my fantasy campaigns as it is more interesting to me. That said, I am always tempted to incorporate a monotheistic faith modeled Christianity as a contrast. If I do write up my own take of the default OD&D setting it will screw towards a Christian inspired religion but as I've said before via my own imagination. |
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Post by El Borak on Aug 30, 2018 17:38:01 GMT -5
I like the idea of Christianity as a religion of D&D world. If we think about it, Three hearts and Three lions by P. Anderson was probably the first source of inspiration for this game. In that novel the protagonist (a man from our world) is christian and christianity is well known in this fantasy world, even if it isn't specified how it comes in the world. Small curious note: the miniature of cleric from AD&D first ed. era had a cross in his hand! (photo from my collection). All in all, I think it would be interesting to include in the game a cult of light, like Howard's Mitra, halfway between the real and the fantastic, an ancient cult from our world helps to imagine something already known, but it remains fantastic, because it will be remodeled. I am with you on this and there is another thread here or someplace that I will link to in this thread as soon as I can locate it. But it will also help with this topic, I am just trying to remember where on the forum it is at. |
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Post by El Borak on Aug 30, 2018 17:40:08 GMT -5
I like the idea of Christianity as a religion of D&D world. If we think about it, Three hearts and Three lions by P. Anderson was probably the first source of inspiration for this game. In that novel the protagonist (a man from our world) is christian and christianity is well known in this fantasy world, even if it isn't specified how it comes in the world. Small curious note: the miniature of cleric from AD&D first ed. era had a cross in his hand! (photo from my collection). All in all, I think it would be interesting to include in the game a cult of light, like Howard's Mitra, halfway between the real and the fantastic, an ancient cult from our world helps to imagine something already known, but it remains fantastic, because it will be remodeled. I am not opposed to the idea of at least using Christianity as the basis for the core religion of a D&D world, you have something like it in the Sigmar Cult in WHFRPG and a few other examples. But being that I am one of the few non-Christians here at this forum (I loosely define myself currently as a Deist) I am more open to polytheistic religions in my fantasy campaigns as it is more interesting to me. That said, I am always tempted to incorporate a monotheistic faith modeled Christianity as a contrast. If I do write up my own take of the default OD&D setting it will screw towards a Christian inspired religion but as I've said before via my own imagination. That sounds really good. I don't think anyone has to use Christianity as an inspiration in the game, I just don't think those influences should be erased from the game before it gets to the referee. |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Aug 30, 2018 19:13:36 GMT -5
I am not opposed to the idea of at least using Christianity as the basis for the core religion of a D&D world, you have something like it in the Sigmar Cult in WHFRPG and a few other examples. But being that I am one of the few non-Christians here at this forum (I loosely define myself currently as a Deist) I am more open to polytheistic religions in my fantasy campaigns as it is more interesting to me. That said, I am always tempted to incorporate a monotheistic faith modeled Christianity as a contrast. If I do write up my own take of the default OD&D setting it will screw towards a Christian inspired religion but as I've said before via my own imagination. That sounds really good. I don't think anyone has to use Christianity as an inspiration in the game, I just don't think those influences should be erased from the game before it gets to the referee. Neither do I, as I have gotten older I find myself being more open to the baked in Christian influence than when I was younger. I hold this to be especially true concerning OD&D, Holmes Basic & B/X D&D. I can be counted as one of the few vocal people that detests how Paizo & WotC have turned Asmodeus into a god in their systems and settings. |
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Post by ripx187 on Aug 30, 2018 19:28:29 GMT -5
I like the idea of Christianity as a religion of D&D world. If we think about it, Three hearts and Three lions by P. Anderson was probably the first source of inspiration for this game. In that novel the protagonist (a man from our world) is christian and christianity is well known in this fantasy world, even if it isn't specified how it comes in the world. Small curious note: the miniature of cleric from AD&D first ed. era had a cross in his hand! (photo from my collection). All in all, I think it would be interesting to include in the game a cult of light, like Howard's Mitra, halfway between the real and the fantastic, an ancient cult from our world helps to imagine something already known, but it remains fantastic, because it will be remodeled. This miniature cleric is amazing! The details on it are incredible, thank you for showing it to us. Do you know anything about it? Did you paint it? |
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Post by onerom on Aug 31, 2018 10:29:35 GMT -5
I like the idea of Christianity as a religion of D&D world. If we think about it, Three hearts and Three lions by P. Anderson was probably the first source of inspiration for this game. In that novel the protagonist (a man from our world) is christian and christianity is well known in this fantasy world, even if it isn't specified how it comes in the world. Small curious note: the miniature of cleric from AD&D first ed. era had a cross in his hand! (photo from my collection). All in all, I think it would be interesting to include in the game a cult of light, like Howard's Mitra, halfway between the real and the fantastic, an ancient cult from our world helps to imagine something already known, but it remains fantastic, because it will be remodeled. This miniature cleric is amazing! The details on it are incredible, thank you for showing it to us. Do you know anything about it? Did you paint it? Yeah, I paint it. It comes from the "Wizzards and Warriors" series, from the W14 Specialists set by Grenadier, made in the 70s. www.miniatures-workshop.com/lostminiswiki/index.php?title=Image:G-waw-w14d.jpg |
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Post by Admin Pete on Aug 31, 2018 10:31:50 GMT -5
Do you have a lot of mini's that you've painted?
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Post by Keyone1234 on Sept 1, 2018 18:07:42 GMT -5
Mike Carr played the first cleric, and was the Bishop of the Church of the Facts of Life. He seems to had played it, not as a Christian, but more as a religion of convenience. A precedence which has paved the way for how most folks play the class. I've never known anyone to play it otherwise. There are just some places most people don't want to go in the game. |
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Post by Keyone1234 on Sept 1, 2018 18:09:39 GMT -5
Where does he even imply such a thing? Why would anyone do that? The implication is: If you are RPing a cleric you pray to your god. Not in any game I've ever heard of with the disclaimer that none of us have played a version of D&D newer than AD&D the first ed. |
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Post by Keyone1234 on Sept 1, 2018 18:11:27 GMT -5
I like the idea of Christianity as a religion of D&D world. If we think about it, Three hearts and Three lions by P. Anderson was probably the first source of inspiration for this game. In that novel the protagonist (a man from our world) is christian and christianity is well known in this fantasy world, even if it isn't specified how it comes in the world. Small curious note: the miniature of cleric from AD&D first ed. era had a cross in his hand! (photo from my collection).
All in all, I think it would be interesting to include in the game a cult of light, like Howard's Mitra, halfway between the real and the fantastic, an ancient cult from our world helps to imagine something already known, but it remains fantastic, because it will be remodeled. Big thumbs up to what you wrote about and great picture of your work! Have an exalt for that! |
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Post by Mr Darke on Sept 13, 2018 17:13:41 GMT -5
If you look at my forum you can see my stance on who I think the cleric follows.  That said I am leaning toward Tolkien's take on the whole thing with Iluvatar, the Vala and so on. My take on the whole thing is that D&D has a fictionalized Christianity as portrayed in movies, books and TV. Hammer Horror Christianity comes to mind especially*. So I really have no issue using that version in a game at all. As for the demons and devils I am not really bothered by it. I encountered some of them through Dante and did learn about their other connects til later. As far as that goes, I find the sources for those names--and the angelic names--suspect. *Which makes me wonder if the Magic-User wouldn't be a type of Christian/Kabbalic/Hermetic type mage. |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Sept 16, 2018 20:05:54 GMT -5
Running after money is always a mistake, if even you catch it you will still end up broke(broken). Ok, now your trying too hard(we gotta stop before we derail another thread, this is me stopping!) So you want to leave it to ME to derail? All righty --- Running after money is always a mistake. The trick is to run BEFORE it. |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Sept 16, 2018 20:13:51 GMT -5
The blogger is correct, the religion of the Cleric is clear, if not explicitly named. I have seen people try to de-Christianize the Cleric and remove the religious symbols from the game and say they don't affect vampires because the vampires were of different religions(which is mythologically ridiculous). Especially since it seems to be one of the many things which Stoker made up when he needed logical "realistic" laws of how vampirism works. (LOTS of what we assume was old European lore came from Stoker, which explains why Polidori's Vampire, Carmilla, and Varney the Vampire had very little similarity to the Dracula model.) But for the record (and thank Jim Steinmeyer for his research and bibliography) stakes weren't the short things you see in movies and it was a crucifix which would repel the vampire and other demons. The crucifix has an image of Christ on the cross, and it was the image (representing the presence) of Christ which pained the vampire. The Catholic wafer (host) did the same, even burning Miss Mini's forehead -- and I hope I haven't spoiled any of the novel for anyone. |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Sept 16, 2018 22:53:21 GMT -5
Mina, not Mini. Oops again.
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Post by wangalade on Nov 18, 2018 0:07:08 GMT -5
hey guys, I just became aware of this conversation(I don't really check these boards often, mostly stick to the piazza) and wanted to give some feedback to certain things said about my blog posts.
First, I have no problem with Vancian Magic, I actually feel like OD&D and AD&D aren't vancian enough and should be tweaked just a little bit to bring it in line with the fiction. Having said that I seriously feel that Clerics and MUs should be distinguished by more than just a spell list. I'm fine with one of the classes using vancian spellcasting as long as the other has different rules for magic, so if clerics used vancian I would want MUs to have use mana points or something. the mechanics should imply that the MU and the Cleric are just different and recieve their magic from a different source. Since it is implied that the cleric is christian or at least monotheistic I find it makes more sense to change their method of spellcasting because vancian spellcasting does not represent the rituals/practices/beliefs of any real world religion.
On the subject of Paladins, even though they seem cool at first, they are really superfluous. Looking at the implied OD&D setting, Clerics can be seen as akin to the crusading orders, which is kind of what I picture when I think of paladins. Clerics fight almost as well as a fighter and have access to some miracles/spells granted by their god. Clerics are Holy Warriors, not monks cloistered away in an abbey. If you want Paladins , just allow your clerics to use swords.
Also just because I'm examining the implied setting doesn't mean that is what I use in my games. I think it is important to understand the intent of the rules/author so that when we do change something, whether it is a rule or a detail of the setting, we understand exactly what we are changing and why and its effects throughout the rest of the game.
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Nov 18, 2018 0:17:00 GMT -5
Thanks for the input wangalade, as I really enjoyed your blog posts. I really need to log into the Piazza more. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Nov 18, 2018 14:57:59 GMT -5
hey guys, I just became aware of this conversation(I don't really check these boards often, mostly stick to the piazza) and wanted to give some feedback to certain things said about my blog posts. First, I have no problem with Vancian Magic, I actually feel like OD&D and AD&D aren't vancian enough and should be tweaked just a little bit to bring it in line with the fiction. Having said that I seriously feel that Clerics and MUs should be distinguished by more than just a spell list. I'm fine with one of the classes using vancian spellcasting as long as the other has different rules for magic, so if clerics used vancian I would want MUs to have use mana points or something. the mechanics should imply that the MU and the Cleric are just different and recieve their magic from a different source. Since it is implied that the cleric is christian or at least monotheistic I find it makes more sense to change their method of spellcasting because vancian spellcasting does not represent the rituals/practices/beliefs of any real world religion. On the subject of Paladins, even though they seem cool at first, they are really superfluous. Looking at the implied OD&D setting, Clerics can be seen as akin to the crusading orders, which is kind of what I picture when I think of paladins. Clerics fight almost as well as a fighter and have access to some miracles/spells granted by their god. Clerics are Holy Warriors, not monks cloistered away in an abbey. If you want Paladins , just allow your clerics to use swords. Also just because I'm examining the implied setting doesn't mean that is what I use in my games. I think it is important to understand the intent of the rules/author so that when we do change something, whether it is a rule or a detail of the setting, we understand exactly what we are changing and why and its effects throughout the rest of the game. Great post and great blog post, have an Exalt! You have a lot of good ideas and I think most were on the same page. I am a Paladin fan, but that is because most people don't play Clerics as Holy Warriors, if they did I would probably consider dropping the Paladin and would give Clerics swords. A lot of Clerics are pretty neutral in their behavior and for me the solution was to play a Paladin. |
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Post by wangalade on Dec 22, 2018 22:09:56 GMT -5
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Dec 23, 2018 0:17:51 GMT -5
wangalade have an exalt for an excellent series, I am enjoying reading it.
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Post by wangalade on Feb 3, 2019 19:38:43 GMT -5
I finished looking at 4th Level Spells Pertaining to Animate Dead, what might be a 'good purpose' for a Lawful Cleric to use this spell? I cant really think of any. |
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That said I am leaning toward Tolkien's take on the whole thing with Iluvatar, the Vala and so on. 
