Is the Fighting Man Class too Weak?

[ripx187]

The OD&D rules are best explored through play, but looking at them I have some concerns and I just wanted to hear some thoughts from more experienced users than myself.

There are at least 2 methods of combat listed, the major and most used being the Alternative Combat Systems, and the system prefered method of Chainmail. I am no expert on Chainmail but it does look like a fairer system to the Fighting Man class. At higher levels, the class appears to do much much more damage than when we use the Alternative Combat System.

I may be incorrect, but, the way that I read Chainmail dmg at this point is that the fighter does X amount of HD damage and upon a successful hit they can divide up those HD damages between multiple targets, perhaps being able to clear all their defended area of low-level cannon fodder. Like I said, I could be wrong but I like the idea of it.

Going back to the ALT Combat method, the fighter seems to get only one single attack per round, regardless of level, the only thing that seems to improve is his much greater chances of hitting the target and him having a lot more hit points than the other classes.

Does this balance out, or maybe a better term than balance, does this make more sense during play than it does on paper?

Later Editions granted the Fighter more attacks, but even than it wasn't as good as being able to do X amount of HD damage; the greatest 2e Warrior could still only kill 3 goblins per round which is kind of pathetic, but the ALT Combat System seems to be even worse.

It has always been my belief that the Fighters were supposed to be strongest characters at lowest levels, but I'm not even sure if this is the case. Looking at the tables, the difference between the melee attacks of a mid-level fighting man and a cleric appears to be trivial. I suppose that this enforces a prefered play-style that encourages the Fighting Man to be a defender only, but considering that Soldier is the most common profession in the game, and the great heroes of the fiction which I prefer to emulate, the limitations implied kind of worry me. Again, does this correct itself during play?

[True Black Raven]

I've never really used Chainmail much and the "Alternative Combat System" was what was being used well before the publication of OD&D as I understand it. Chainmail was listed to entice wargamers into buying OD&D since the market outside of wargamers was not yet part of the thought process.  So I can't answer Chainmail questions.

As for is the Fighting Man Class too weak, IMO that is not the case. If you use 3d6 in order and they get a little magic they will do just fine. It is IMO when you add in Greyhawk that they start to get a little weak in respect to Magic Users.

[Hexenritter Verlag]

ripx187 there is a pdf floating around the interwebs called 'Using Chainmail to Resolve OD&D Combats', plus Grey elf has one called 'Forbidden Lore' on his site that might help you beef up the fighting-man class.

[True Black Raven]

I would not worry too much about balance, it is overrated in my book. I think one thing to remember ripx187 is that the strength of any character in OD&D has way more to do with how well the player plays the character and his decision making than anything else, including the mechanical stuff.

[Hexenritter Verlag]

Jul 2, 2018 18:08:21 GMT -5 True Black Raven said:

I would not worry too much about balance, it is overrated in my book. I think one thing to remember ripx187 is that the strength of any character in OD&D has way more to do with how well the player plays the character and his decision making than anything else, including the mechanical stuff.

So very true. 

[ripx187]

True Black Raven, I think that there might be some confusion. I speak of the original 3 Dungeons & Dragons booklets, it's the earliest published version of D&D. I am not sure why Chainmail was divorced from the system so quickly. Was it due to mechanical flaws, consumer trends, or what, but it is definitely a system that is not accurately captured by the ALT Combat System at all. The Named levels found in the Experience Points section point directly to Chainmail and an apparent assumption that it is the default system.

I know that Dave Arneson never used it, but I'm not so inclined to dismiss it so quickly. What IF Chainmail was never replaced? 

EXAMPLE: A 4th level Fighting-man is labelled as a HERO. Under Chainmail 3E rules, the HERO counts as 4 men. HD that is the same as how we always have played it, but he also fights as 4 men. I take this to mean that he can do 4 HD of damage per successful attack: He can centre all of them on a specific target, or he can divide them up, killing 2 Second level creatures, 4 First level creatures, or 8 1/2 HD creatures. This would replace rolling for damage which I don't have a problem with, but do you think that this would break the system, make enemy fighters too deadly, or increase the joy of playing a fighting-man enough to compensate him for having no spells?

The above would only matter if the fighting-man was using a melee striking weapon. I think that missile fire uses a different combat system.

Hexenritter Verlag. I have seen the first file that you speak of and do have to give it a good look through. Right now I am trying to decide if I want to use the Chainmail system or not. It sounds interesting and very different from what my group is used to.

[True Black Raven]

Jul 2, 2018 18:49:31 GMT -5 ripx187 said:

True Black Raven , I think that there might be some confusion. I speak of the original 3 Dungeons & Dragons booklets, it's the earliest published version of D&D. I am not sure why Chainmail was divorced from the system so quickly. Was it due to mechanical flaws, consumer trends, or what, but it is definitely a system that is not accurately captured by the ALT Combat System at all. The Named levels found in the Experience Points section point directly to Chainmail and an apparent assumption that it is the default system.

I know that Dave Arneson never used it, but I'm not so inclined to dismiss it so quickly. What IF Chainmail was never replaced? 

EXAMPLE: A 4th level Fighting-man is labelled as a HERO. Under Chainmail 3E rules, the HERO counts as 4 men. HD that is the same as how we always have played it, but he also fights as 4 men. I take this to mean that he can do 4 HD of damage per successful attack: He can centre all of them on a specific target, or he can divide them up, killing 2 Second level creatures, 4 First level creatures, or 8 1/2 HD creatures. This would replace rolling for damage which I don't have a problem with, but do you think that this would break the system, make enemy fighters too deadly, or increase the joy of playing a fighting-man enough to compensate him for having no spells?

The above would only matter if the fighting-man was using a melee striking weapon. I think that missile fire uses a different combat system.

Hexenritter Verlag . I have seen the first file that you speak of and do have to give it a good look through. Right now I am trying to decide if I want to use the Chainmail system or not. It sounds interesting and very different from what my group is used to.

TSR never supported using Chainmail aside from the mention in Men & Magic and as I said that was a bridge tie-in for wargamers more than anything else. Well and to sell copies of Chainmail. But it went away quickly because none of the original guys including Gygax used it with D&D. Now a lot of people cherry picked stuff from Chainmail and used it in D&D but that was not a TSR supported thing. The things you mention in reference to a HERO, I have seen all of those variations house ruled in as posted various places by a lot of different people.

[Hexenritter Verlag]

ripx187 take the following: 

Combat: CHAINMAIL is primarily a system for 1:20 combat, although it

provides a basic understanding for man-to-man fighting also. The Man-

To-Man and Fantasy Supplement sections of Chainmail provide systems

for table-top actions of small size. The regular CHAINMAIL system is for

larger actions where man-like types are mainly involved, i.e. kobolds, goblins,

dwarves, orcs, elves, men, hobgoblins, etc. It is suggested that the alternate

system in D&D be used to resolve the important melees where principal

figures are concerned, as well as those involving the stronger monsters.


When fantastic combat is taking place there is normally only one exchange

of attacks per round, and unless the rules state otherwise, a six-sided die is

used to determine how many hit points damage is sustained when an attack

succeeds. Weapon type is not considered, save where magical weapons are

concerned. A super hero, for example, would attack eight times only if he

were fighting normal men (or creatures basically that strength, i.e., kobolds,

goblins, gnomes, dwarves, and so on). Considerations such as weapon-type,

damage by weapon-type, and damage by monster attack tables appear

in the first booklet to be added to the D&D series—SUPPLEMENT I,

GREYHAWK, which should be available about the time this publication is,

or shortly thereafter. Initiative is always checked. Surprise naturally allows

first attack in many cases. Initiative thereafter is simply a matter of rolling

two dice (assuming that is the number of combatants) with the higher score

gaining first attack that round. Dice scores are adjusted for dexterity and

so on.

I think this is why Delving Deeper & Full mail Plate Mail gets their multiple attacks from. So a level 4 Fighting-Man has 4 attacks against normal men types (1HD or below), while a super hero (level 8 Fighting-man gets 8 attacks vs normal man types). I guess it depends on how you desire to run your combats.

[ripx187]

Thanks fellas!

I'm on my cell right now, but I think that both of you are on the right path. I'm just fussing, and it doesn't help that I'm fighting the system. I can't say if this is my own over thought out dogma or not.

[Admin Pete]

Interesting thread, and yes you can mix anything into your D&D that you want. Don't worry about other stuff, just try it and see if 1. does it work and 2. is it fun?

[Deleted]

CHAINMAIL was never used. Dave Acheson used the fantasy combat matrix a few times but changed it almost immediately. Per Rob Kuntz on this very forum Gary put CHAINMAIL into D&D to sell more copies.

[Admin Pete]

Jul 3, 2018 0:12:56 GMT -5 @gronanofsimmerya said:

CHAINMAIL was never used. Dave Acheson used the fantasy combat matrix a few times but changed it almost immediately. Per Rob Kuntz on this very forum Gary put CHAINMAIL into D&D to sell more copies.

It looks like True Black Raven , beat you to it.

Jul 2, 2018 17:52:25 GMT -5 True Black Raven said:

I've never really used Chainmail much and the "Alternative Combat System" was what was being used well before the publication of OD&D as I understand it. Chainmail was listed to entice wargamers into buying OD&D since the market outside of wargamers was not yet part of the thought process.

Jul 2, 2018 19:06:12 GMT -5 True Black Raven said:

TSR never supported using Chainmail aside from the mention in Men & Magic and as I said that was a bridge tie-in for wargamers more than anything else. Well and to sell copies of Chainmail. But it went away quickly because none of the original guys including Gygax used it with D&D. Now a lot of people cherry picked stuff from Chainmail and used it in D&D but that was not a TSR supported thing. The things you mention in reference to a HERO, I have seen all of those variations house ruled in as posted various places by a lot of different people.

Right now a poster is looking at what if you did you use Chainmail how would you do that. He is asking what if. I don't have access but maybe some one who does can link to stuff for him where other people have done that.

[ripx187]

I ordered a copy of one of Dave Featherstone's books (I hope it's the right one). Can't wait to compair the two. It will be nice to have a hard copy of some Ancient Warfare rules. All of mine are digital, which I don't use at the table.

[Admin Pete]

Jul 3, 2018 0:12:56 GMT -5 @gronanofsimmerya said:

CHAINMAIL was never used. Dave Acheson used the fantasy combat matrix a few times but changed it almost immediately. Per Rob Kuntz on this very forum Gary put CHAINMAIL into D&D to sell more copies.

Hey @gronanofsimmerya, I just noticed you added your avatar! Cool!

[Deleted]

There are a few systems that do this but Delving Deeper by Simon Bull is the only one that comes to mind ATM.

[Hexenritter Verlag]

Jul 3, 2018 13:23:02 GMT -5 @gizka said:

There are a few systems that do this but Delving Deeper by Simon Bull is the only one that comes to mind ATM.

Yup, Delving Deeper, Fullmail Platemail & The Big Brown Book does this. 

[Deleted]

Thank you! I appreciate the reminder.

[ripx187]

You know what? Back when I played AD&D I was always trying to figure out how to make the axe special, specifically with Dwarf characters. The ability to divide up HD damage would've been a cool Natural 20 ability.


For OD&D I can always just describe this happening. A mighty fighter carving up low-level mooks cause they are just so over-classed. They wouldn't get XP from it, but it would be something that they'll remember and would make a scene seem more epic than it really was. 


We do incorporate the miniature game during complex skirmishes on a 1:1 level. We rarely do it, but it is fun as long as it isn't an every game thing. Our current miniature ruleset is the one detailed in the 2nd Edition AD&D Player's Options: Combat & Tactics handbook. I also secretly use the BATTLE SYSTEM for attacks by the PCs but roll for damage when I hit Player Characters. It sped the game up and they had no idea that I was ignoring their damage rolls and just deducting HD, 2 HD for fighters, 1 for the other classes. CHAINMAIL seems faster, but I think that I'll just keep the single die attack and reduce the CHAINMAIL HD to hit monsters and see what happens.  

When I get bored of combat I also switch to HD damage over hp. I really despise tracking hit points so this is something that I can see myself using a lot.

[ripx187]

Jul 3, 2018 16:40:27 GMT -5 Hexenritter Verlag said:

Jul 3, 2018 13:23:02 GMT -5 @gizka said:

There are a few systems that do this but Delving Deeper by Simon Bull is the only one that comes to mind ATM.

Yup, Delving Deeper, Fullmail Platemail & The Big Brown Book does this. 

I am a cheap guy with no gaming budget, but Delving Deeper does seem to be a recurring theme on this board. Sounds like I'll have to pick a copy up, huh?

My Birthday is next month . . . hmmm.

[Hexenritter Verlag]

Jul 3, 2018 19:25:34 GMT -5 ripx187 said:

Jul 3, 2018 16:40:27 GMT -5 Hexenritter Verlag said:

Yup, Delving Deeper, Fullmail Platemail & The Big Brown Book does this. 

I am a cheap guy with no gaming budget, but Delving Deeper does seem to be a recurring theme on this board. Sounds like I'll have to pick a copy up, huh?

My Birthday is next month . . . hmmm.

Delving Deeper is free in PDF and cheap in print at Lulu. I am hoping to get both it & Fullmetal Platemetal via there in print with a birthday prepaid visa gift card. 

[ripx187]

Jul 3, 2018 19:33:51 GMT -5 Hexenritter Verlag said:

Jul 3, 2018 19:25:34 GMT -5 ripx187 said:

I am a cheap guy with no gaming budget, but Delving Deeper does seem to be a recurring theme on this board. Sounds like I'll have to pick a copy up, huh?

My Birthday is next month . . . hmmm.

Delving Deeper is free in PDF and cheap in print at Lulu. I am hoping to get both it & Fullmetal Platemetal via there in print with a birthday prepaid visa gift card. 

$5 is cheap. I honestly expected some over-produced $50 text book. I like being pleasantly surprised!

[Hexenritter Verlag]

Jul 3, 2018 19:47:40 GMT -5 ripx187 said:

Jul 3, 2018 19:33:51 GMT -5 Hexenritter Verlag said:

Delving Deeper is free in PDF and cheap in print at Lulu. I am hoping to get both it & Full metal Plate Mail via there in print with a birthday prepaid visa gift card. 

$5 is cheap. I honestly expected some over-produced $50 text book. I like being pleasantly surprised!

If it costed that much I'd just use OD&D, but both Delving Deeper & Full Metal Plate mail are both cheap. Here is the Lulu page for FMPM in case you are interested. 

[mormonyoyoman]

Both DD & FMPM are cheap. Shipping and mangling ain't.

[mao]

It's not so much that fighters are too weak as it is they need more options than swing. One of the very few things that are good about 4th ED is the conceot of at will attacks. For example a fighter could have the following:
Sure strike: does base weop. damage with no adds and thery are +2 to hit
escalating attack,he gets +1 to hit every time he misses , up to+3.
Power attack, -2 to hit, plus 2 on damage

[captaincrumbcake]

I may be incorrect, but, the way that I read Chainmail dmg at this point is that the fighter does X amount of HD damage and upon a successful hit they can divide up those HD damages between multiple targets, perhaps being able to clear all their defended area of low-level cannon fodder. Like I said, I could be wrong but I like the idea of it.


I have no measurable knowledge of how Chainmail works, but I believe only certain battlefield figures had multiple attacks: the Hero, Superhero, Lord, etc. And don't those only come into play if one is incorporating the Fantasy Supplement section, anyway? Or am I not remembering what little I know?


Going back to the ALT Combat method, the fighter seems to get only one single attack per round, regardless of level, the only thing that seems to improve is his much greater chances of hitting the target and him having a lot more hit points than the other classes.


In my opinion it is in this component of the original rules game that the problem lies. I am of the camp that does believe the characters, especially the Fighting man, are weakened in comparison to their enemies (the monsters). The Attack Matrix for characters vs. monsters is glaringly clear of the superiority of the latter; when a (up to) 1 HD monster in combat vs a L3 Fighting Man has the same chance of success, something doesn't add up; when a 3 HD creature has a 10% better chance to attack than a L3 Fighting Man, it makes me wonder...why. 

The total random nature of rolling dice flatly removes the surety that a Fighting Man will always have more hit points than the other classes; especially when rolling 1 die at a time, it is not a remote chance but expected result that a L6 Fighting Man could have less hit points than a L3 (2HD) magic-user. Bad rolls are as common as good ones. That is the nature of the mechanic being employed as the critical combat/life generating component of the game.


Does this balance out, or maybe a better term than balance, does this make more sense during play than it does on paper?



It's two different mechanics designed to accomplish different results. I'm not sure you can compare the play ability. But then, I'm just a noob when it comes to matters of deep thought. Best to let others bloviate on such matters.  

[ripx187]

Jul 4, 2018 9:38:53 GMT -5 mao said:

It's not so much that fighters are too weak as it is they need more options than swing. One of the very few things that are good about 4th ED is the conceot of at will attacks. For example a fighter could have the following:
Sure strike: does base weop. damage with no adds and thery are +2 to hit
escalating attack,he gets +1 to hit every time he misses , up to+3.
Power attack, -2 to hit, plus 2 on damage

I know that I don't want to turn the game back into AD&D. The beauty of the ALT Combat system is that it is fast and easy. @gronanofsimmerya said something recently that I think was important, and I think that you just said something that relates to it.

A FIGHTER NEEDS MORE OPTIONS THAN JUST SWING.

Gronan stated something along the lines of needing to use Tactics. If you are just going to sit there and roll dice, the fighter will just stand there and swing his sword; but if the player comes up with an idea, or a plan this adds more options which actually might improve the system.

[ripx187]

Jul 4, 2018 11:25:05 GMT -5 captaincrumbcake said:

I may be incorrect, but, the way that I read Chainmail dmg at this point is that the fighter does X amount of HD damage and upon a successful hit they can divide up those HD damages between multiple targets, perhaps being able to clear all their defended area of low-level cannon fodder. Like I said, I could be wrong but I like the idea of it.


I have no measurable knowledge of how Chainmail works, but I believe only certain battlefield figures had multiple attacks: the Hero, Superhero, Lord, etc. And don't those only come into play if one is incorporating the Fantasy Supplement section, anyway? Or am I not remembering what little I know?


Going back to the ALT Combat method, the fighter seems to get only one single attack per round, regardless of level, the only thing that seems to improve is his much greater chances of hitting the target and him having a lot more hit points than the other classes.


In my opinion it is in this component of the original rules game that the problem lies. I am of the camp that does believe the characters, especially the Fighting man, are weakened in comparison to their enemies (the monsters). The Attack Matrix for characters vs. monsters is glaringly clear of the superiority of the latter; when a (up to) 1 HD monster in combat vs a L3 Fighting Man has the same chance of success, something doesn't add up; when a 3 HD creature has a 10% better chance to attack than a L3 Fighting Man, it makes me wonder...why. 

The total random nature of rolling dice flatly removes the surety that a Fighting Man will always have more hit points than the other classes; especially when rolling 1 die at a time, it is not a remote chance but expected result that a L6 Fighting Man could have less hit points than a L3 (2HD) magic-user. Bad rolls are as common as good ones. That is the nature of the mechanic being employed as the critical combat/life generating component of the game.


Does this balance out, or maybe a better term than balance, does this make more sense during play than it does on paper?



It's two different mechanics designed to accomplish different results. I'm not sure you can compare the play ability. But then, I'm just a noob when it comes to matters of deep thought. Best to let others bloviate on such matters.  

If I choose to play in that mode, we would be using the fantasy rules. The characters become those special pieces. I doubt, however, that I will. If Gygax, who wrote the rules, didn't use the system, than it probably isn't advisable for me to use it. I do need to find a decent Morale Chart which I'll decide upon once I get that Featherstone book. I may end up having to design my own.

Kudo's, and an Exalt on your critical observation of the Monster/Men charts. I hadn't even noticed! I wonder why that is? Is it to make up for the fact that the monsters don't have stats?

I'll have to get back to this line of thought, but today is a holiday. HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY EVERYONE!

[Hexenritter Verlag]

Happy Independence Day!

[simrion]

In the rules-as-written, LBBs, the Fighting Man is the only character that can use all magical weapons. A big advantage here is Magical Swords in that the Fighting Man is the ONLY class of the base three that can use Swords, magical or otherwise. Depending upon your reading of the Magic Sword description you could surmise all magical swords are intelligent to some degree and likely to possess one or more "special powers." These special powers can add significantly valuable and advantageous abilities to the "simple" Fighting Man. Advantages normally only available to the other two magic using classes and even some later taken up by add on classes such as the Thief (think Find Traps.) In this light the Fighting Man is not weak at all. Some of the Extraordinary Abilities are pretty potent in and of themselves:

Teleportation
Flying
Healing
1-4 Times Normal Strength

Just to name a few. Add in the options available in Supplement One (Greyhawk) and the Fighting Man's prospects improve even more, IMNSHO :-)

[Deleted]

I disagree in the strongest possible terms that fighters do not have more options in OD&D and that all they can do is "just swing." Learn about tactics, such as flanking, the correct use of light versus heavy troops, placement of missile troops, et al. If you're using a fighter by the "stomp forward, stand there, and roll dice" method, the problem is not the lack of rules for the fighter.

It's not about "my character is studly."  It's "our team is functioning well to accomplish our objective."