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Post by Q Man on Jun 23, 2018 22:10:47 GMT -5
A lot of people post on forums saying they don't want to play Clerics and DMs post complaining about not being able to get players to take a Cleric. One of the mentioned concerns is party balance (but we won't go there in this thread that is a different topic).
One of the complaints is that the cleric is just a heal bot and doesn't get to do anything else. Another complaint is that they don't get to use very much magic, especially weapons.
So what do you think? Are there good reasons to take a cleric as a character or are there better reasons not to take a cleric as a character.
IMO the cleric has a lot of upside and as for being a heal bot that is a player choice IMO. I would like to hear your pros and cons.
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Jun 23, 2018 22:51:44 GMT -5
Lots of opportunity for role-playing, clue-solving, negotiating - not as much opportunity for combat, but opportunities to prevent combat. ("Hi! We're from the Church of Chaosium and we'd like to share a message with you.")
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Post by Q Man on Jun 24, 2018 12:47:15 GMT -5
I think clerics are a lot more versatile that people give them credit for and it changes their utility when the focus is not fight first, last and always.
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Post by ripx187 on Jun 24, 2018 13:40:53 GMT -5
Clerics. (sigh) I've noticed a trend in fiction to mitigate these guys too. I honestly can't tell you the last fantasy book that I've read that had a true, spell casting cleric in it. Maybe that says something about society?
BITD I enjoyed playing them, but I never played them as spell casters. They were fighters to me, but now I've noticed most players treating them as mages. They keep them in the back and they only come out when there is undead around. I don't get it.
In my current campaign, I just decided to go with it. I created an unpowered and wealthy religious system that is only concerned with keeping the status quo. It is corporate, folks pay honour to statues that represent jobs, and their place in life. The royalty promotes this philosophy in public, but privately they worship a being that they call The Architect. An element of Illuminati or Freemasons secret society that the public scoffs at as just crazy talk.
There is evidence all over the place of an older religion, stone circles and strange patterns are everywhere, this is an old and lost religion. Its practitioners are viewed as servants of the devil and are enemies of mankind. The church would love nothing better than to destroy these circles but they're protected by ancient magics, thus people just built around them. These are the true gods. Gods that date back to the days of high magic.
The mages know about these old gods and study secret books long thought burned by the state religion, but they don't really understand them. The forces which govern the magic are different, they can't cast these spells but they study what is known. Again, if you are caught with any of this you will be burned. Of course, it wouldn't be illegal if nobody was doing it.
The evil aspects and the rage of these gods is played out as well. The State Religion does have a reason to fear. The Druids who act as the eyes and ears of these gods seek only to punish and destroy. A few peaceful folks in the countryside have not given up on mankind, they quietly council and heal and pray that they are not turned in, but they are not the norm.
The players know none of this. They'll find cleric scrolls and holy relics in the ancient dungeons and buried cities. Will anyone be interested in trying to unlock the mysteries of this lost religion as a player character? That isn't up to me.
Maybe the problem with playing clerics is that you serve the DM? All of the other classes can make their own way, but in many campaigns, the cleric is left to kind of serve the setting.
AD&D 2nd Edition really screwed this class up, there are so many spells written up that just don't do anything that it becomes overwhelming. I had players who'd come over to play and spend the entire game just sitting there reading spell descriptions. That isn't fun.
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Post by Q Man on Jun 24, 2018 14:10:22 GMT -5
Clerics. (sigh) I've noticed a trend in fiction to mitigate these guys too. I honestly can't tell you the last fantasy book that I've read that had a true, spell casting cleric in it. Maybe that says something about society? BITD I enjoyed playing them, but I never played them as spell casters. They were fighters to me, but now I've noticed most players treating them as mages. They keep them in the back and they only come out when there is undead around. I don't get it. In my current campaign, I just decided to go with it. I created an unpowered and wealthy religious system that is only concerned with keeping the status quo. It is corporate, folks pay honour to statues that represent jobs, and their place in life. The royalty promotes this philosophy in public, but privately they worship a being that they call The Architect. An element of Illuminati or Freemasons secret society that the public scoffs at as just crazy talk. There is evidence all over the place of an older religion, stone circles and strange patterns are everywhere, this is an old and lost religion. Its practitioners are viewed as servants of the devil and are enemies of mankind. The church would love nothing better than to destroy these circles but they're protected by ancient magics, thus people just built around them. These are the true gods. Gods that date back to the days of high magic. The mages know about these old gods and study secret books long thought burned by the state religion, but they don't really understand them. The forces which govern the magic are different, they can't cast these spells but they study what is known. Again, if you are caught with any of this you will be burned. Of course, it wouldn't be illegal if nobody was doing it. The evil aspects and the rage of these gods is played out as well. The State Religion does have a reason to fear. The Druids who act as the eyes and ears of these gods seek only to punish and destroy. A few peaceful folks in the countryside have not given up on mankind, they quietly council and heal and pray that they are not turned in, but they are not the norm. The players know none of this. They'll find cleric scrolls and holy relics in the ancient dungeons and buried cities. Will anyone be interested in trying to unlock the mysteries of this lost religion as a player character? That isn't up to me. Maybe the problem with playing clerics is that you serve the DM? All of the other classes can make their own way, but in many campaigns, the cleric is left to kind of serve the setting. AD&D 2nd Edition really screwed this class up, there are so many spells written up that just don't do anything that it becomes overwhelming. I had players who'd come over to play and spend the entire game just sitting there reading spell descriptions. That isn't fun. Your campaign sounds like a blast to play in, surviving reach high level and building a collection of old scrolls and secret book and then being able to study and unlock the secrets would be great fun. Maybe be a rogue Druid who teams up with some mages and turns everything upside down. We always had clerics either in the second rank right behind the fighters or as the the rear guard depending on what we were doing and where we were. We always had at least one fighter or cleric at the back to watch the rear. The magic-users were never completely exposed. Our clerics have as much freedom as anyone else. |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Jun 24, 2018 15:41:23 GMT -5
Clerics. (sigh) I've noticed a trend in fiction to mitigate these guys too. I honestly can't tell you the last fantasy book that I've read that had a true, spell casting cleric in it. Maybe that says something about society? BITD I enjoyed playing them, but I never played them as spell casters. They were fighters to me, but now I've noticed most players treating them as mages. They keep them in the back and they only come out when there is undead around. I don't get it. In my current campaign, I just decided to go with it. I created an unpowered and wealthy religious system that is only concerned with keeping the status quo. It is corporate, folks pay honour to statues that represent jobs, and their place in life. The royalty promotes this philosophy in public, but privately they worship a being that they call The Architect. An element of Illuminati or Freemasons secret society that the public scoffs at as just crazy talk. There is evidence all over the place of an older religion, stone circles and strange patterns are everywhere, this is an old and lost religion. Its practitioners are viewed as servants of the devil and are enemies of mankind. The church would love nothing better than to destroy these circles but they're protected by ancient magics, thus people just built around them. These are the true gods. Gods that date back to the days of high magic. The mages know about these old gods and study secret books long thought burned by the state religion, but they don't really understand them. The forces which govern the magic are different, they can't cast these spells but they study what is known. Again, if you are caught with any of this you will be burned. Of course, it wouldn't be illegal if nobody was doing it. The evil aspects and the rage of these gods is played out as well. The State Religion does have a reason to fear. The Druids who act as the eyes and ears of these gods seek only to punish and destroy. A few peaceful folks in the countryside have not given up on mankind, they quietly council and heal and pray that they are not turned in, but they are not the norm. The players know none of this. They'll find cleric scrolls and holy relics in the ancient dungeons and buried cities. Will anyone be interested in trying to unlock the mysteries of this lost religion as a player character? That isn't up to me. Maybe the problem with playing clerics is that you serve the DM? All of the other classes can make their own way, but in many campaigns, the cleric is left to kind of serve the setting. AD&D 2nd Edition really screwed this class up, there are so many spells written up that just don't do anything that it becomes overwhelming. I had players who'd come over to play and spend the entire game just sitting there reading spell descriptions. That isn't fun. So much awesome in this post ripx187! I am envious & wish I had thought of it first. Kudos & an exalt. |
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Post by Q Man on Jun 24, 2018 15:59:44 GMT -5
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Post by robkuntz on Jun 24, 2018 16:04:22 GMT -5
My own World of Kalibruhn has some kick-butt priest classes. As I don't use the standard anything from D&D in my world I have no concerns with this--solved it, erh, 44 years ago.  |
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Post by Q Man on Jun 24, 2018 16:34:46 GMT -5
My own World of Kalibruhn has some kick-butt priest classes. As I don't use the standard anything from D&D in my world I have no concerns with this--solved it, erh, 44 years ago. I think that the standard classes should be viewed as a starting point. It only stands to reason that if you make it your own, that would manifest in the classes and the way they work. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2018 22:12:34 GMT -5
Clerics came about because Blackmoor needed one.
And they're great to play. Fight ALMOST as well as a fighter, turn undead, heal, need less XP than any other class, hit name level first, get huge bonuses of divine aid building their stronghold.
Anybody who thinks a cleric is just a "healbot" needs to get some bloody imagination.
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Jun 26, 2018 0:11:51 GMT -5
Clerics came about because Blackmoor needed one. And they're great to play. Fight ALMOST as well as a fighter, turn undead, heal, need less XP than any other class, hit name level first, get huge bonuses of divine aid building their stronghold. Anybody who thinks a cleric is just a "healbot" needs to get some bloody imagination. I love it when @gronanofsimmerya chimes in - he gets straight to the point. |
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Post by robkuntz on Jun 26, 2018 0:51:36 GMT -5
Clerics came about because Blackmoor needed one. And they're great to play. Fight ALMOST as well as a fighter, turn undead, heal, need less XP than any other class, hit name level first, get huge bonuses of divine aid building their stronghold. Anybody who thinks a cleric is just a "healbot" needs to get some bloody imagination. Not to mention the free wine...  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2018 11:23:41 GMT -5
And a great retirement plan!
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Jun 26, 2018 12:25:52 GMT -5
Clerics came about because Blackmoor needed one. And they're great to play. Fight ALMOST as well as a fighter, turn undead, heal, need less XP than any other class, hit name level first, get huge bonuses of divine aid building their stronghold. Anybody who thinks a cleric is just a "healbot" needs to get some bloody imagination. Not to mention the free wine... I raised three teenaged daughters decades ago. I've had all the whines I need for the rest of eternity. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Jun 26, 2018 13:32:43 GMT -5
Not to mention the free wine... I raised three teenaged daughters decades ago. I've had all the whines I need for the rest of eternity. I can not imagine your daughters whining? Say it is not so! |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Jun 26, 2018 13:47:02 GMT -5
Teenagers = whining.
Revenge = they have and had teenagers of their own
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Post by Admin Pete on Jun 26, 2018 16:03:54 GMT -5
Teenagers = whining. Revenge = they have and had teenagers of their own  |
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Post by Bartholmew Quarrels on Jun 28, 2018 8:40:38 GMT -5
Clerics are a lot of fun to play, especially if you play them with a dominant personality. I don't like the trope of the milquetoast cleric. I don't like milquetoast anything to be more on point.
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