Easy Come, Easy Go

[Admin Pete]

Down in the Missed Assumptions thread waysoftheearth made the following comment:

Easy Come, Easy Go
OD&D player characters can die really easily, particularly at low levels, but even at higher levels.
On the other hand, even a 1st level noob can get lucky find a fabulous treasure or perilous magic item. As an example of the latter, in one of Makofan's games my 1st or 2nd level elf pulled a sword with multiple wishes and, soon after, a staff of wizardry! She made it to hero status and retired

These highs and lows of "wild circumstance" are facilitated by OD&D's tables, but are toned down in later editions which became all "balanced", and safe, and (IMHO) comparatively dull. With this in mind players should expect to see multiple characters and treasures come and go during an OD&D campaign, which seems to me quite unlike the more modern approach.

And I decided it was worth its own thread! waysoftheearth Have an Exalt!

[makofan]

Yes, 20 years ago I was all about balance. Now, I just go with the flow. I rolled a Wand on the magic treasure table, then rolled a 00 for a Staff of Wizardry, and was really nervous about handing it out. I guess it all works out

[hedgehobbit]

I'll be the dissenting opinion on this if you don't mind. One of the core premises of the game is that the dungeon get's harder as you go deep but the treasure also get's better. So there is a risk and reward to what the players decide to do. Finding awesome magic items in the first level breaks this, discourages the players from taking the risk of going down early. It become simply a case of hanging out on the first level hoping for a lucky roll.

This is why I prefer treasure tables that are adjusted for dungeon depth (or monster level).

I would also argue that having better items hidden deeper underground is actually more old school, as this was the way the Dungeon! boardgame worked back in the pre-publication days. 

[Admin Pete]

In the Murkhill Campaign, my one player's PC Smotz made it to name level (9th - Lord) and along the way he lost every possession that he had twice, once by being crushed under a few hundred thousands tons of rock when the side of a mountain fell on him. Fortunately for him the party had access to a Raise Dead. He had was down to zero or less hit points over 15 times and came back with the help of a ring of regeneration, he was really bummed when he finally lost that ring. He went off by himself and got captured and lost everything, they finally rescued him, but all of his possessions were long gone.

[Admin Pete]

Apr 8, 2015 9:13:34 GMT -5 makofan said:

Yes, 20 years ago I was all about balance. Now, I just go with the flow. I rolled a Wand on the magic treasure table, then rolled a 00 for a Staff of Wizardry, and was really nervous about handing it out. I guess it all works out

There is always a chance that they might get something good on an early level of a dungeon, but they still usually have to survive first IMC.

[tetramorph]

Apr 8, 2015 10:47:22 GMT -5 hedgehobbit said:

I'll be the dissenting opinion on this if you don't mind. One of the core premises of the game is that the dungeon get's harder as you go deep but the treasure also get's better. So there is a risk and reward to what the players decide to do. Finding awesome magic items in the first level breaks this, discourages the players from taking the risk of going down early. It become simply a case of hanging out on the first level hoping for a lucky roll.

This is why I prefer treasure tables that are adjusted for dungeon depth (or monster level).

I would also argue that having better items hidden deeper underground is actually more old school, as this was the way the Dungeon! boardgame worked back in the pre-publication days. 

I think most of us would agree with you here. I myself use the random treasure tables in U&WA.

But even there, there is a chance, even if astronomical, that one could roll up a staff of power on the first level.

And I think that is all that folks are trying to say.

[Admin Pete]

Apr 8, 2015 10:47:22 GMT -5 hedgehobbit said:

I'll be the dissenting opinion on this if you don't mind. One of the core premises of the game is that the dungeon get's harder as you go deep but the treasure also get's better. So there is a risk and reward to what the players decide to do. Finding awesome magic items in the first level breaks this, discourages the players from taking the risk of going down early. It become simply a case of hanging out on the first level hoping for a lucky roll.

This is why I prefer treasure tables that are adjusted for dungeon depth (or monster level).

I would also argue that having better items hidden deeper underground is actually more old school, as this was the way the Dungeon! boardgame worked back in the pre-publication days. 

Perhaps I am taking this a different direction than is being assumed - you can read my player example I just posted. I was taking Easy Come, Easy Go a bit differently. My dungeons do work that way the deeper they are the harder they are and the better the reward. That does not mean they cannot ever obtain something special on the 1st or 2nd level, but if they do they will have to survive first. My players have never been hesitant about going deeper into a dungeon and have on occasion fled deeper into a dungeon instead of up, so they can be very unpredictable IME.

[makofan]

Yes, based on probabilities, the deeper you do, the better the items, but based on possibilities, it is still possible for a fluky gift

[scottanderson]

We're all on the same page I think.

[Admin Pete]

Apr 8, 2015 12:54:04 GMT -5 scottanderson said:

We're all on the same page I think.

Yeah, pretty much. I guess what I was looking for moreso were stories about how the PCs lost things they had earned through their play or stories of how they got something that was more than normally expected.

[waysoftheearth]

Apr 8, 2015 10:47:22 GMT -5 hedgehobbit said:

One of the core premises of the game is that the dungeon get's harder as you go deep but the treasure also get's better. So there is a risk and reward to what the players decide to do. Finding awesome magic items in the first level breaks this, discourages the players from taking the risk of going down early. It become simply a case of hanging out on the first level hoping for a lucky roll.

I understand where you're coming from hedgehobbit, and I totally agree with the risk/reward-by-depth premise.

I also think that the OD&D treasure tables support this premise insofar as the frequency with which the players have a chance to roll on the magic items tables will generally increase with dungeon depth. The increased frequency of magic items rolls (and also increasing quantity of gold/gems/jewelry aka experience points!) is (IMHO) the way in which OD&D represents the increasing reward side of the equation.

That a lowly noob can get a famous (and freakishly unlikely) treasure roll on a shallow level is, IMHO, a feature of the game not a bug. It's precisely this lure that pulls naive young adventurers into these deadly dungeons in the first place

[Admin Pete]

Apr 8, 2015 18:06:19 GMT -5 waysoftheearth said:

That a lowly noob can get a famous (and freakishly unlikely) treasure roll on a shallow level is, IMHO, a feature of the game not a bug. It's precisely this lure that pulls naive young adventurers into these deadly dungeons in the first place

Yeah, that is a feature I like and one of the things that makes all of that dying worthwhile.

[Admin Pete]

Down in the Missed Assumptions thread waysoftheearth made the following comment:

Easy Come, Easy Go
OD&D player characters can die really easily, particularly at low levels, but even at higher levels.
On the other hand, even a 1st level noob can get lucky find a fabulous treasure or perilous magic item. As an example of the latter, in one of Makofan's games my 1st or 2nd level elf pulled a sword with multiple wishes and, soon after, a staff of wizardry! She made it to hero status and retired

These highs and lows of "wild circumstance" are facilitated by OD&D's tables, but are toned down in later editions which became all "balanced", and safe, and (IMHO) comparatively dull. With this in mind players should expect to see multiple characters and treasures come and go during an OD&D campaign, which seems to me quite unlike the more modern approach.

Returning to this, I was reminded of this by a thread over on ODD74 Number of Magic Items per Dungeon Level and the point that waysoftheearth was making about the effects of using the random tables and "wild circumstance" is something I strive for even though I don't roll things out, instead creating them on the fly.

[Mighty Darci]

Great thread! Yes, harder and harder the deeper you go, but there is always a chance of something special on any level, the odds just get better and better the deeper you go, but the odds of dying in the attempt keep going up too!

[mormonyoyoman]

"Balance" is something I always had trouble liking. Yes, I sort of wanted my players to survive (Except in Call of Cthulhu!) but I always thrilled to epics where the protagonist was outnumbered, outpowered, and still rose to the occasion. And I tried to give that thrill as personal experiences to my players.

Burroughs and Howard spoiled me, and hobbits made underdog epics more socially acceptable.

[Admin Pete]

Jun 19, 2017 13:07:23 GMT -5 mormonyoyoman said:

"Balance" is something I always had trouble liking. Yes, I sort of wanted my players to survive (Except in Call of Cthulhu!) but I always thrilled to epics where the protagonist was outnumbered, outpowered, and still rose to the occasion. And I tried to give that thrill as personal experiences to my players.

Burroughs and Howard spoiled me, and hobbits made underdog epics more socially acceptable.

I never concern myself with balance. Good players learn quickly though!

[Irish Warrior]

In terms of "Easy Come, Easy Go" sometimes it is fun to contemplate how quickly some players squander their PC's wealth and how others squeeze every copper till it squeals.

[mormonyoyoman]

Jun 21, 2017 8:24:07 GMT -5 Irish Warrior said:

In terms of "Easy Come, Easy Go" sometimes it is fun to contemplate how quickly some players squander their PC's wealth and how others squeeze every copper till it squeals.

Just like real life! (See major lotto winners and congresspeoples)

[Robert the Black]

Charm Monster is a wonderful spell. Wish I had it in real life.

[Mighty Darci]

Jun 27, 2017 13:46:21 GMT -5 Robert the Black said:

Charm Monster is a wonderful spell. Wish I had it in real life.

As do I, Robert, as do I!