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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2018 16:14:59 GMT -5
I wouldn't actually distribute something like this due to copyright laws and infringement thereon. I'm curious, though, if one wished to produce such an annotated edition of the OD&D rules set? How would one go about it? - Boxed text? Or boxed with light background color such as gray?
- Italics? Or bold?
- Different font, such as a sans serif for annotations and serif for the original text?
- Different size text, 12-point for original and 10-point for annotations?
- Rules text on one page, annotations on facing page?
- Something else I haven't listed here?
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Post by xizallian on Apr 15, 2018 16:49:11 GMT -5
I wouldn't actually distribute something like this due to copyright laws and infringement thereon. I'm curious, though, if one wished to produce such an annotated edition of the OD&D rules set? How would one go about it? - Boxed text? Or boxed with light background color such as gray?
- Italics? Or bold?
- Different font, such as a sans serif for annotations and serif for the original text?
- Different size text, 12-point for original and 10-point for annotations?
- Rules text on one page, annotations on facing page?
- Something else I haven't listed here?
I would do it in two columns, the original stuff on the left side of the page and the notes on the right side. |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Apr 15, 2018 16:51:41 GMT -5
Boxed text in italics 10-point vs. 12-point standard text font.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2018 17:31:15 GMT -5
I would do it in two columns, the original stuff on the left side of the page and the notes on the right side. Nice idea! I hadn't thought of that one. |
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Post by xizallian on Apr 15, 2018 17:36:22 GMT -5
I would do it in two columns, the original stuff on the left side of the page and the notes on the right side. Nice idea! I hadn't thought of that one. Thank you, I have read books like that and it works well for me. |
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Post by True Black Raven on Apr 15, 2018 19:18:01 GMT -5
Nice idea! I hadn't thought of that one. Thank you, I have read books like that and it works well for me. I would prefer that design. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Apr 16, 2018 11:05:23 GMT -5
What are the formats used on other existing annotated books? I have not read any books of that type and am curious how they have been done, if anyone knows.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 11:21:15 GMT -5
What are the formats used on other existing annotated books? I have not read any books of that type and am curious how they have been done, if anyone knows. The latest one I’ve read was “Beowulf” and it was heavily footnoted at the bottom of the page. It worked OK, but it seemed a bit cumbersome to me. I was hoping somebody might have a better suggestion. So far the “double column” was the one I like the best. |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Apr 16, 2018 13:50:48 GMT -5
Generally, annotations for print are done marginally, footnoted, indexed, or inline. @piper is referring to annotating in the margins which kinda looks like a two-column format. This is a good choice for an single-column layout such as OD&D. AD&D, being two-column for instance, would be better suited to footnotes or an index.
Inline is the least popular since it breaks up the original text unnaturally.
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Post by Admin Pete on Apr 16, 2018 15:44:38 GMT -5
What are the formats used on other existing annotated books? I have not read any books of that type and am curious how they have been done, if anyone knows. The latest when I’ve read was “Beowulf” and it was heavily footnoted at the bottom of the page. It worked OK, but it seemed a bit cumbersome to me. I was hoping somebody might have a better suggestion. So far the “double column” was the one I like the best. Yeah, I like that one too, I just wondered if anyone had used one they really liked. |
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Post by True Black Raven on Apr 16, 2018 16:35:08 GMT -5
The latest when I’ve read was “Beowulf” and it was heavily footnoted at the bottom of the page. It worked OK, but it seemed a bit cumbersome to me. I was hoping somebody might have a better suggestion. So far the “double column” was the one I like the best. Yeah, I like that one too, I just wondered if anyone had used one they really liked. I think the double column is the best, I have seen the triple column with comments on both sides of the original material in the middle and that is hard to read IMO. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Apr 16, 2018 19:48:57 GMT -5
How in depth are you planning on going with this @piper, a full blown book or a few hundred blog posts?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 16, 2018 19:54:52 GMT -5
How in depth are you planning on going with this @piper , a full blown book or a few hundred blog posts? I'm not entirely certain. I can certainly wax pedantic at the drop of a hat, but I'm currently thinking along the lines of explanatory notes around a line or two, a short paragraph at most. And I'd try to keep it to things I've either seen in OD&D's immediate descendants (pre-1983), immediate forebears (Blackmoor, Braunstein, Outdoor Survival, Chainmail, etc.). Of course any quotes on paper or online by EGG or Dave (may they RIP) would be subject for inclusion as well. I'm going to do my best to keep my personal opinions out of it, though I imagine there will be some slant merely by what I choose to include or exclude. |
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Post by dragondaddy on Apr 16, 2018 23:06:46 GMT -5
I wouldn't actually distribute something like this due to copyright laws and infringement thereon. I'm curious, though, if one wished to produce such an annotated edition of the OD&D rules set? How would one go about it? I would do it in two columns, the original stuff on the left side of the page and the notes on the right side. You should be able to publish this, pretty much in its' entirety under the OGL license as all of it, pretty much all of 0D&D is already included in the v1.0 Systems Reference Document available from Wizard's of the Coast. There are a few of the monsters that they have marked as off-limits IP, including amongst other things Beholders, and the Displacer Beast. ...also the... 3) Mimic. ... 5) Gelatinous Cube. ... 6) Owlbear. ... 7) Lich. ... 8) The Drow. ... 9) and Mind Flayers. Everything else couldn't be copyrighted by WOTC as it is all myths and legends, and monsters that have long been in the public domain. No game mechanics or game rules are protected by copyright in any event. I have Dark Elves in my games, not Drow, and have had Dark Elves in my game long before WOTC ever trademarked Drow. Wotc SRD version 5.1 dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/systems-reference-document-srdLet me know if you need v1.0 or v2.0, as I have both of the older SRDs granting permission to use pretty much everything 0D&D except what I mentioned above that WOTC trademarked as uniquely WOTC D&D... |
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Post by Admin Pete on Apr 17, 2018 6:39:27 GMT -5
dragondaddy, is each version of the SRD ever more limited than the previous version?
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Post by colinouchou on Apr 17, 2018 9:31:22 GMT -5
]I would do it in two columns, the original stuff on the left side of the page and the notes on the right side. IMO this is by far the most useful and easiest to read format. waysoftheearth, is working on an Annotated Delving Deeper and even though this is my favorite of the clones and all, I still have to say that he is using that hard to read format with footnotes. Minor footnotes are one thing, but for a full annotation, they are a serious pain. If everything is side by side it is much easier to read. When you use footnotes, I would go to it for something specific, but to sit down and read the whole thing, not a chance. Sorry waysoftheearth, while I do love Delving Deeper, a footnoted annotation not so much. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Apr 17, 2018 11:12:02 GMT -5
@piper, while a complete annotated version would need WotC blessings and a nearly complete annotated version could be done under the OGL. If you just wrote a book of commentary, the bulk of it would be discussing public domain information anyway and you could fair use quote all of the "confusing," "vague," and "ambigous" parts. So I don't think you need the OGL to write the book if you want it to be commentary and you could still discuss the book pretty much line by line without quoting the whole thing.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2018 11:19:03 GMT -5
Indeed! Thank you for pointing that out, it’s a useful line of thought.
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Post by dragondaddy on Apr 17, 2018 19:51:02 GMT -5
dragondaddy , is each version of the SRD ever more limited than the previous version? I don't know, haven't read the newer versions of the SRD in their entirety. I will say that, the early versions tied to the Open Gaming Gaming license don't have an expiration date set on them, and were created as perpetual licenses (provided one abided by the terms of those licenses) so anything I would care to make, would be using the 1.0 SRD or the 3.5 Systems Reference Document. Here is the first line of each of the Systems Reference Documents that i have;
This material is Open Game Content, and is licensed for public use under the terms of the Open Game License v1.0a.and of course, here is the OPEN GAME LICENSE Version 1.0a OPEN GAME LICENSE Version 1.0aThe following text is the property of Wizards of the Coast, Inc. and is Copyright 2000 Wizards of the Coast, Inc ("Wizards"). All Rights Reserved. 1. Definitions: (a)"Contributors" means the copyright and/or trademark owners who have contributed Open Game Content; (b)"Derivative Material" means copyrighted material including derivative works and translations (including into other computer languages), potation, modification, correction, addition, extension, upgrade, improvement, compilation, abridgment or other form in which an existing work may be recast, transformed or adapted; (c) "Distribute" means to reproduce, license, rent, lease, sell, broadcast, publicly display, transmit or otherwise distribute; (d)"Open Game Content" means the game mechanic and includes the methods, procedures, processes and routines to the extent such content does not embody the Product Identity and is an enhancement over the prior art and any additional content clearly identified as Open Game Content by the Contributor, and means any work covered by this License, including translations and derivative works under copyright law, but specifically excludes Product Identity. (e) "Product Identity" means product and product line names, logos and identifying marks including trade dress; artifacts; creatures characters; stories, storylines, plots, thematic elements, dialogue, incidents, language, artwork, symbols, designs, depictions, likenesses, formats, poses, concepts, themes and graphic, photographic and other visual or audio representations; names and descriptions of characters, spells, enchantments, personalities, teams, personas, likenesses and special abilities; places, locations, environments, creatures, equipment, magical or supernatural abilities or effects, logos, symbols, or graphic designs; and any other trademark or registered trademark clearly identified as Product identity by the owner of the Product Identity, and which specifically excludes the Open Game Content; (f) "Trademark" means the logos, names, mark, sign, motto, designs that are used by a Contributor to identify itself or its products or the associated products contributed to the Open Game License by the Contributor (g) "Use", "Used" or "Using" means to use, Distribute, copy, edit, format, modify, translate and otherwise create Derivative Material of Open Game Content. (h) "You" or "Your" means the licensee in terms of this agreement. 2. The License: This License applies to any Open Game Content that contains a notice indicating that the Open Game Content may only be Used under and in terms of this License. You must affix such a notice to any Open Game Content that you Use. No terms may be added to or subtracted from this License except as described by the License itself. No other terms or conditions may be applied to any Open Game Content distributed using this License. 3.Offer and Acceptance: By Using the Open Game Content You indicate Your acceptance of the terms of this License. 4. Grant and Consideration: In consideration for agreeing to use this License, the Contributors grant You a perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license with the exact terms of this License to Use, the Open Game Content. 5.Representation of Authority to Contribute: If You are contributing original material as Open Game Content, You represent that Your Contributions are Your original creation and/or You have sufficient rights to grant the rights conveyed by this License. 6.Notice of License Copyright: You must update the COPYRIGHT NOTICE portion of this License to include the exact text of the COPYRIGHT NOTICE of any Open Game Content You are copying, modifying or distributing, and You must add the title, the copyright date, and the copyright holder's name to the COPYRIGHT NOTICE of any original Open Game Content you Distribute.
7. Use of Product Identity: You agree not to Use any Product Identity, including as an indication as to compatibility, except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of each element of that Product Identity. You agree not to indicate compatibility or co-adaptability with any Trademark or Registered Trademark in conjunction with a work containing Open Game Content except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of such Trademark or Registered Trademark. The use of any Product Identity in Open Game Content does not constitute a challenge to the ownership of that Product Identity. The owner of any Product Identity used in Open Game Content shall retain all rights, title and interest in and to that Product Identity. 8. Identification: If you distribute Open Game Content You must clearly indicate which portions of the work that you are distributing are Open Game Content. 9. Updating the License: Wizards or its designated Agents may publish updated versions of this License. You may use any authorized version of this License to copy, modify and distribute any Open Game Content originally distributed under any version of this License.10 Copy of this License: You MUST include a copy of this License with every copy of the Open Game Content You Distribute. 11. Use of Contributor Credits: You may not market or advertise the Open Game Content using the name of any Contributor unless You have written permission from the Contributor to do so. 12 Inability to Comply: If it is impossible for You to comply with any of the terms of this License with respect to some or all of the Open Game Content due to statute, judicial order, or governmental regulation then You may not Use any Open Game Material so affected. 13 Termination: This License will terminate automatically if You fail to comply with all terms herein and fail to cure such breach within 30 days of becoming aware of the breach. All sublicenses shall survive the termination of this License. 14 Reformation: If any provision of this License is held to be unenforceable, such provision shall be reformed only to the extent necessary to make it enforceable. 15 COPYRIGHT NOTICEOpen Game License v 1.0 Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc. Dungeons & Dragons and the Wizards of the Coast Logo are registered trademarks owned by Wizards of the Coast, Inc. The D20 system logo is a trademark owned by Wizards of the Coast, Inc. All Wizards characters, character names, and the distinctive likeness thereof are trademarks owned by Wizards of the Coast, Inc. Distributed to the hobby, toy, and comic trade in the United States and Canada by regional distributors. Distributed in the United States to the book trade by St. Martin's Press. Distributed in Canada to the book trade by Fenn Ltd. Distributed worldwide by Wizards of the Coast, Inc. and by regional distributors. This material is protected under the copyright laws of the United States of America. Any reproduction or unauthorized use of the material or artwork contained herein is prohibited without the express written permission of Wizards of the Coast, Inc. This product is a work of fiction. Any similarity to actual people, organizations, places, or events is purely coincidental. Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, All Rights Reserved. Made in the USA. ========================================================================================= So, the above is the entire original Open Gaming License, which specifically states, you get to choose which version of the Open Gaming License to use for your Open Gaming Content. Remember that any unique and new creations , may be trademarked and protected by you or your organization, and that any games or game mechanics are not protected under copyright law, and may also not be protected as part of a trademark, unless the trademark is duly filed clearly describing how the material is unique to your brand, and can be used to identify your company. Please do not consider any of this legal advice, and I'd highly recommend consulting with a competent Intellectual Property Attorney prior to publication, and am able to refer at least a couple your way, ...if you are indeed serious about publishing. Back when Ryan Dancey maintained the OGL I copied the entire version 1.0 Systems Reference Document as well as the 3.5 SRD, and keep these in an archive, and will happily make those available upon request, if you would like to use the OGL to create your own version of the original game... |
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Post by Keyone1234 on Apr 17, 2018 20:48:35 GMT -5
Indeed! Thank you for pointing that out, it’s a useful line of thought. I am interested in this product, let us know if you publish or do a kickstarter. |
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Post by Bandersnatch on Apr 17, 2018 21:25:52 GMT -5
I'm open to anything other than boxed text. That I find really annoying.
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Post by True Black Raven on Apr 17, 2018 21:50:18 GMT -5
I'm not entirely certain. I can certainly wax pedantic at the drop of a hat, but I'm currently thinking along the lines of explanatory notes around a line or two, a short paragraph at most. And I'd try to keep it to things I've either seen in OD&D's immediate descendants (pre-1983), immediate forebears (Blackmoor, Braunstein, Outdoor Survival, Chainmail, etc.). Of course any quotes on paper or online by EGG or Dave (may they RIP) would be subject for inclusion as well. I'm going to do my best to keep my personal opinions out of it, though I imagine there will be some slant merely by what I choose to include or exclude. Are you going to go ahead with this project? What can we do to help? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2018 14:58:49 GMT -5
Are you going to go ahead with this project? What can we do to help? The project will go ahead. I've loaded the root files onto my iPad, it will make the journey between Austin and Houston with me. |
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Post by Mighty Darci on Apr 25, 2018 13:41:04 GMT -5
I hear (well read) that you asked Wizards/Hasbro for permission to quote the whole thing in the project and that it may have gotten kicked upstairs and you are waiting on a reply. Hoping you get the green light and this will be a watershed event.
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Post by Mighty Darci on Apr 26, 2018 0:04:59 GMT -5
@piper posted this over at ODD74 I got an answer. They said “no.” I’m not too disappointed because it was, after all, a long shot. If I would have pulled this off I would have had some serious bragging rights! LOL! |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Apr 26, 2018 5:37:52 GMT -5
As he said - it was a long shot. And a worthy goal. WotC does have a justified fear: the trademarks of "D&D" and "Dungeons & Dragons" are easily lost when (not only if) someone can show they've become generic.
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Post by robertsconley on Apr 27, 2018 13:51:47 GMT -5
@piper , while a complete annotated version would need WotC blessings and a nearly complete annotated version could be done under the OGL. If you just wrote a book of commentary, the bulk of it would be discussing public domain information anyway and you could fair use quote all of the "confusing," "vague," and "ambigous" parts. So I don't think you need the OGL to write the book if you want it to be commentary and you could still discuss the book pretty much line by line without quoting the whole thing. A lot of people enjoy the hell of Philotomy's Musings. A lot can be done without Wizards of the Coast's blessing. While the original text can't be used without their blessing, I think people would get the point if the annotation was paired up with a near-clone using OGL text. Certainly the community can help out with alternative to stuff like the Book III dungeon map. I recommend the starting point for the rule side to be an outline and posted here so we can help with suggestion on which bit of open content works in place of the original text. Or help with anything original that needs to be created like the aforementioned map. |
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Apr 27, 2018 19:57:05 GMT -5
A lot of people enjoy the hell of Philotomy's Musings. A lot can be done without Wizards of the Coast's blessing. While the original text can't be used without their blessing, I think people would get the point if the annotation was paired up with a near-clone using OGL text. Certainly the community can help out with alternative to stuff like the Book III dungeon map. I recommend the starting point for the rule side to be an outline and posted here so we can help with suggestion on which bit of open content works in place of the original text. Or help with anything original that needs to be created like the aforementioned map. This looks like a solid idea to me, I would participate in a thread like that. |
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Post by True Black Raven on Apr 29, 2018 18:07:57 GMT -5
@piper posted this comment and link.
The post linked to above is titled
with today's date.
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Post by True Black Raven on May 1, 2018 21:14:26 GMT -5
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