Post by Jakob Grimm on Apr 7, 2018 15:09:11 GMT -5
Thanks for adding this subforum. 
waysoftheearth posted this information elsewhere and I hope he does not mind my posting it here.
waysoftheearth posted this information elsewhere and I hope he does not mind my posting it here.
I am regularly asked how Delving Deeper differs from S&W, and from S&W WhiteBox. After some thought I've decided to make a public post of it so everyone can see my reply. So...
What is Delving Deeper?
Delving Deeper is an SRD-based fantasy role-playing game that emulates the "Original Rules" via the Open Game License.
D&D's "Original Rules" are not found exclusively in the three little brown books; they are also resident in Chainmail, Outdoor Survival, and other contemporary sources including The Strategic Review and The Great Plains Game Players Newsletter.
Where Does Delving Deeper Fit In?
To appreciate where DD fits into "the big picture", we first need to agree on what that big picture looks like. To that end, here's a timeline of the major D&D releases of the 1970s:
1. Chainmail (1971-1979)
2. OD&D (Jan 1974-1979)
3. Greyhawk (Feb 1975-1979)
4. Blackmoor (Sep 1975-1979)
5. Eldritch Wizardry (Apr 1976-1979)
6. Gods, Demi-Gods & Heroes (Jul 1976-1979)
7. Swords & Spells (Jul 1976-1979)
8. Holmes' Basic Set (Jul 1977-1979)
9. AD&D Monster Manual (1977-1989)
10. AD&D Player's Handbook (1978-1990)
11. AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide (1979-1990)
Fundamentally, Delving Deeper spans just those first two (listed) releases, plus some 'zine commentary of the time (most particularly the FAQ that appeared in The Strategic Review and the unofficial untested thief as it appeared in The Great Plains Game Players Newsletter).
While the "Original Rules" were subsequently expanded (in Greyhawk, Blackmoor, Eldritch Wizardry, and Gods Demi-Gods & Heroes) this material is not represented in Delving Deeper.
How Does Delving Deeper Differ from "Swords & Wizardry"?
Swords & Wizardry is also based on the "Original Game" (as stated in the Complete Rules, p6). But note that S&W's definition of the "Original Game" includes the 1974 Dungeons & Dragons set and its major supplements (lines 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6, above). IMHO, this view of the game approaches something like a "pre-cursor" to AD&D.
Delving Deeper eschews the supplements, and instead encompasses just original 1974 Dungeons & Dragons set and its progenitor; Chainmail (lines 1 and 2, above). This view of the game approaches something like the earliest publically available version of D&D.
These two views are quite different. Neither is "better" or "worse"; each is interesting in its own right.
How Does Delving Deeper Differ from "Swords & Wizardry White Box"?
(My understanding is that...) Unlike the Core and Complete variants the White Box edition of Swords & Wizardry is based largely on the original 1974 Dungeons & Dragons set without the supplements (only line 2, above).
So Delving Deeper and Swords & Wizardry White Box share a common framework. But even so, they differ considerably in their detail.
I had a decent skim through the latest (3rd print) version of the White Box last night and noticed the following differences between WB and DD (although I'm sure a dutiful read would reveal more, these are the obvious things)...
Once again, please note that I'm not saying either is "better" or "worse"; These are just a list of differences (not criticisms) I observed. I have the utmost respect for Marv, for Matt Finch, for S&W, and for the White Box.
*"d-notation" doesn't appear in the original (or DD) but is used throughout the White Box.
*The White Box edition appears to exclude much of what appears in volume 3 of the original; particularly the sections on preparation for the campaign, underworld exploration, pursuit/evasion, wilderness exploration, sea-faring exploration, aerial exploration, castles, and baronies. DD includes all these.
*White Box omits fighting to subdue, and adds a new section detailing a combat sequence. DD includes subdual fighting, and what can be gleaned of the Alternative Combat System from the original sources rules and a few of rules interpretations from Chainmail.
*White Box employs S&W's single saving throw method (although the original saving throw system is also described).
*White Box weapons deal 1d6-1, 1d6, or 1d6+1 hit points damage according to their size (although 1d6 for all weapons is also mentioned).
*White Box armour includes S&W's descending/ascending system of ACs.
*White Box uses a 3d6 roll for turning the undead. The original uses 2d6, as does DD.
*(Regarding monsters, the WB bestiary is quite different to the original. I would hazard the WB monster list was based on an existing S&W document rather than on the 3LBBs, but that's just a guess).
*White Box adds some monsters (Banshees, Blink Dogs, Bugbears, Lemures, Harpies, Hell Hounds, Liches, Lizardmen, Ogre Magi, Giant Rats, Giants Slugs, Specters, Storm Giants, Worgs, Yellow Mold) as well as a new section on designing your own monsters. From memory, I think DD adds only the Lizardman (in tribute to the "Lizard logo"), the Storm Giant, and the Thull.
*WB also omits some OD&D monsters (including Brigands, Buccaneers, Dervishes, Nomads, Pirates, Cavemen, Gnomes, Halflings, Pixies, Nixies, and most of the many monsters that are mentioned in the 3LBBs but not described explicitly). DD includes every monster mentioned or described in the 3LBBs (excepting those owned by other copyright holders).
*White Box Dragons have 8 age categories (as per Greyhawk, AD&D). FWIW -- DD also differs from the original on Dragons, ascribing them SRD-like number of six-sided HD.
*Also notable is that White Box eschews the "treasure type" system, and describes a new method of generating treasure (in which magic swords lack extraordinary powers and occur no more frequently than do other magic weapons -- woe to fighters!). DD uses treasure types and an emulation of the original distribution of magic-items.
*WB includes only spells appearing in M&M, DD includes some additional spells.
*WB clerics don't "top out" at 7 HD.
*WB clerics don't have spellbooks; spells are divinely given (as per Greyhawk & AD&D).
*WB clerical spell progression is very close to the original, while DD's is SRD-based (same total number of spells per day in each).
*WB fighters don't "top out" at 9 HD.
*WB fighter multiple attacks are versus foes of 1 or fewer HD (as per AD&D).
*WB fighters lack morale benefits, sensing invisible opponents, and other chainmail benefits of the original.
*WB magic-users don't "top out" at 7 HD.
*WB magic-users require triple XP (woe to magic-users!) to reach 9th and 10th levels.
*WB magic-users have fewer HD (5 rather than 8 at 10th level).
*White Box doesn't include thieves (neither does the original, but DD does).
*WB dwarves don't see by night.
*WB Elves don't add +1 damage with magical weapons, but do get +1 to hit/damage versus "Hereditary Foes".
*WB provides a variant elf which looks very similar to the red box Basic D&D elf (a combined fighter/magic-user class called the "elf").
Allow me to reiterate: I am not being critical of the White Box! The White Box is a great work that combines an open-ended philosophy and some new things with the original game in a classy "toolbox" style of presentation.
I created the above list because I have been asked to, and also to illustrate that -- in all fairness -- Delving Deeper is not just a poor cousin of S&W:WB.
Delving Deeper is uniquely positioned as an emulation of the earliest published Dungeons & Dragons game. I hope folks will be able to see where DD "fits in" and read it for what it is, rather than worrying about what it isn't.
Enjoy!
What is Delving Deeper?
Delving Deeper is an SRD-based fantasy role-playing game that emulates the "Original Rules" via the Open Game License.
D&D's "Original Rules" are not found exclusively in the three little brown books; they are also resident in Chainmail, Outdoor Survival, and other contemporary sources including The Strategic Review and The Great Plains Game Players Newsletter.
Where Does Delving Deeper Fit In?
To appreciate where DD fits into "the big picture", we first need to agree on what that big picture looks like. To that end, here's a timeline of the major D&D releases of the 1970s:
1. Chainmail (1971-1979)
2. OD&D (Jan 1974-1979)
3. Greyhawk (Feb 1975-1979)
4. Blackmoor (Sep 1975-1979)
5. Eldritch Wizardry (Apr 1976-1979)
6. Gods, Demi-Gods & Heroes (Jul 1976-1979)
7. Swords & Spells (Jul 1976-1979)
8. Holmes' Basic Set (Jul 1977-1979)
9. AD&D Monster Manual (1977-1989)
10. AD&D Player's Handbook (1978-1990)
11. AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide (1979-1990)
Fundamentally, Delving Deeper spans just those first two (listed) releases, plus some 'zine commentary of the time (most particularly the FAQ that appeared in The Strategic Review and the unofficial untested thief as it appeared in The Great Plains Game Players Newsletter).
While the "Original Rules" were subsequently expanded (in Greyhawk, Blackmoor, Eldritch Wizardry, and Gods Demi-Gods & Heroes) this material is not represented in Delving Deeper.
How Does Delving Deeper Differ from "Swords & Wizardry"?
Swords & Wizardry is also based on the "Original Game" (as stated in the Complete Rules, p6). But note that S&W's definition of the "Original Game" includes the 1974 Dungeons & Dragons set and its major supplements (lines 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6, above). IMHO, this view of the game approaches something like a "pre-cursor" to AD&D.
Delving Deeper eschews the supplements, and instead encompasses just original 1974 Dungeons & Dragons set and its progenitor; Chainmail (lines 1 and 2, above). This view of the game approaches something like the earliest publically available version of D&D.
These two views are quite different. Neither is "better" or "worse"; each is interesting in its own right.
How Does Delving Deeper Differ from "Swords & Wizardry White Box"?
(My understanding is that...) Unlike the Core and Complete variants the White Box edition of Swords & Wizardry is based largely on the original 1974 Dungeons & Dragons set without the supplements (only line 2, above).
So Delving Deeper and Swords & Wizardry White Box share a common framework. But even so, they differ considerably in their detail.
I had a decent skim through the latest (3rd print) version of the White Box last night and noticed the following differences between WB and DD (although I'm sure a dutiful read would reveal more, these are the obvious things)...
Once again, please note that I'm not saying either is "better" or "worse"; These are just a list of differences (not criticisms) I observed. I have the utmost respect for Marv, for Matt Finch, for S&W, and for the White Box.
*"d-notation" doesn't appear in the original (or DD) but is used throughout the White Box.
*The White Box edition appears to exclude much of what appears in volume 3 of the original; particularly the sections on preparation for the campaign, underworld exploration, pursuit/evasion, wilderness exploration, sea-faring exploration, aerial exploration, castles, and baronies. DD includes all these.
*White Box omits fighting to subdue, and adds a new section detailing a combat sequence. DD includes subdual fighting, and what can be gleaned of the Alternative Combat System from the original sources rules and a few of rules interpretations from Chainmail.
*White Box employs S&W's single saving throw method (although the original saving throw system is also described).
*White Box weapons deal 1d6-1, 1d6, or 1d6+1 hit points damage according to their size (although 1d6 for all weapons is also mentioned).
*White Box armour includes S&W's descending/ascending system of ACs.
*White Box uses a 3d6 roll for turning the undead. The original uses 2d6, as does DD.
*(Regarding monsters, the WB bestiary is quite different to the original. I would hazard the WB monster list was based on an existing S&W document rather than on the 3LBBs, but that's just a guess).
*White Box adds some monsters (Banshees, Blink Dogs, Bugbears, Lemures, Harpies, Hell Hounds, Liches, Lizardmen, Ogre Magi, Giant Rats, Giants Slugs, Specters, Storm Giants, Worgs, Yellow Mold) as well as a new section on designing your own monsters. From memory, I think DD adds only the Lizardman (in tribute to the "Lizard logo"), the Storm Giant, and the Thull.
*WB also omits some OD&D monsters (including Brigands, Buccaneers, Dervishes, Nomads, Pirates, Cavemen, Gnomes, Halflings, Pixies, Nixies, and most of the many monsters that are mentioned in the 3LBBs but not described explicitly). DD includes every monster mentioned or described in the 3LBBs (excepting those owned by other copyright holders).
*White Box Dragons have 8 age categories (as per Greyhawk, AD&D). FWIW -- DD also differs from the original on Dragons, ascribing them SRD-like number of six-sided HD.
*Also notable is that White Box eschews the "treasure type" system, and describes a new method of generating treasure (in which magic swords lack extraordinary powers and occur no more frequently than do other magic weapons -- woe to fighters!). DD uses treasure types and an emulation of the original distribution of magic-items.
*WB includes only spells appearing in M&M, DD includes some additional spells.
*WB clerics don't "top out" at 7 HD.
*WB clerics don't have spellbooks; spells are divinely given (as per Greyhawk & AD&D).
*WB clerical spell progression is very close to the original, while DD's is SRD-based (same total number of spells per day in each).
*WB fighters don't "top out" at 9 HD.
*WB fighter multiple attacks are versus foes of 1 or fewer HD (as per AD&D).
*WB fighters lack morale benefits, sensing invisible opponents, and other chainmail benefits of the original.
*WB magic-users don't "top out" at 7 HD.
*WB magic-users require triple XP (woe to magic-users!) to reach 9th and 10th levels.
*WB magic-users have fewer HD (5 rather than 8 at 10th level).
*White Box doesn't include thieves (neither does the original, but DD does).
*WB dwarves don't see by night.
*WB Elves don't add +1 damage with magical weapons, but do get +1 to hit/damage versus "Hereditary Foes".
*WB provides a variant elf which looks very similar to the red box Basic D&D elf (a combined fighter/magic-user class called the "elf").
Allow me to reiterate: I am not being critical of the White Box! The White Box is a great work that combines an open-ended philosophy and some new things with the original game in a classy "toolbox" style of presentation.
I created the above list because I have been asked to, and also to illustrate that -- in all fairness -- Delving Deeper is not just a poor cousin of S&W:WB.
Delving Deeper is uniquely positioned as an emulation of the earliest published Dungeons & Dragons game. I hope folks will be able to see where DD "fits in" and read it for what it is, rather than worrying about what it isn't.
Enjoy!
