Seelie Court vs. the Unseelie Court

[True Black Raven]

In regard to elves and other creatures of Fairy, do any of you do anything with the old tropes of the Seelie Court vs. the Unseelie Court? Curious about what has been done with that in your campaigns.

[Hexenritter Verlag]

Nothing so far but I might be including them in my revisions I am just not sure. My old Rolemaster GM did so for sure in his world.

[True Black Raven]

Apr 1, 2018 16:08:29 GMT -5 Hexenritter Verlag said:

Nothing so far but I might be including them in my revisions I am just not sure. My old Rolemaster GM did so for sure in his world.

Do you remember any high points of what he did with it?

[True Black Raven]

Some of the information that I have been looking at from various sources.
Classifications of fairies

The fairies of Irish, English and Scottish folklore have been classified in a variety of ways. Two of the most prominent categories, derived from Scottish folklore, are the division into the Seelie Court and the Unseelie Court.

These categories may reflect an earlier (medieval) classification of the Germanic elves (Dökkálfar and Ljósálfar), as the corresponding Insular Celtic "fair folk" do not appear to have a comparable division. William Butler Yeats, in Irish Fairy and Folk Tales, further divided them into the Trooping Fairies (appearing in splendid processions known as fairy rades) and the Solitary Fairies (mischievous spirits appearing on their own). Katharine Mary Briggs noted that a third distinction might be needed for "domesticated fairies" who live in human households.

Seelie and Unseelie Courts
The categorization of fairies based on court is whether or not a fairy is light or dark. The Seelie court are known to seek help from humans, to warn those who have accidentally offended them, and to return human kindness with favors of their own. Still, a fairy belonging to this court will avenge insults and could be prone to mischief. The most common time of day to see them is twilight. This has not always been the case. In the beginnings, fairies were more likely to appear at any time in any place. Only when human beings started to populate more and more regions, and tried to put the world into an order, fairies and their realms became less and less visible for us. Since then they are said to appear in "border regions". Border regions such as twilight (border between day and night), or the night between April 30th and May 1st and between October 31th and November 1st (border of seasons). Other names for the Seelie court are 'The Shining Throne' or 'The Golden Ones' and 'The Summer Court'. Seelies are known for playing pranks on humans and having a light hearted attitude, forgetting their sorrows quickly and not realizing how they might be affecting the humans they play pranks on.

The Unseelie Court consists of the darkly-inclined fairies. Unlike the Seelie Court, no offense is necessary to bring down their assaults. As a group (or "host"), they appear at night and assault travelers, often carrying them through the air, beating them, and forcing them to commit such acts as shooting at cattle. Like the beings of the Seelie Court who are not always benevolent, neither are the fairies of the Unseelie Court always malevolent. Most Unseelies can become fond of a particular human if they are viewed as respectful, and would choose to make them something of a pet. Some of the most common characters in the Unseelie Court are Bogies, Bogles, Boggarts, Abbey Lubbers and Buttery Spirits. The division into "Seelie" and "Unseelie" spirits was roughly equivalent to the division of Elves in Norse mythology, into "light" and "dark" distinctions.

In the French fairy tales as told by the précieuses, fairies are likewise divided into good and evil, but the effect is clearly literary. Many of these literary fairies seem preoccupied with the character of the humans they encounter.

The Welsh fairies, Tylwyth Teg, and the Irish Aos Sí are usually not classified as wholly good or wholly evil.

Trooping Fairies, Solitary Fairies and Domestic Fairies
W.B. Yeats divided fairies into the solitary and trooping fairies, as did James Macdougall in Folk Tales and Fairy Lore. Katharine Mary Briggs noted that a third distinction might be needed for "domesticated fairies" who live in human households, but such fairies might join with other fairies for merry-making and fairs.

The trooping fairies contain the aristocracy of the fairy world, including the Irish Aos Sí. They are known as trooping faeries because they travel in long processions, such as the one from which Tam Lin was rescued. But the trooping fairies also include other fairies of lesser importance; a trooping fairy can be large or small, friendly or sinister.

Unlike the trooping fairies, solitary fairies live alone and are inclined to be wicked and malicious creatures, except for beings such as the brownie who is said to help with household chores.

Welsh fairies
The folklorist Wirt Sikes formally divided Welsh fairies, or Tylwyth Teg, into five general types. They include the Ellyllon (elves), the Bwbachod (household spirits similar to brownies and hobgoblins), the Coblynau (spirits of the mines), the Gwragedd Annwn (lake maidens), and the Gwyllion (mountain spirits resembling hags). Sikes acknowledged that while such classifications are largely arbitrary, "the student of folklore must classify his materials distinctly in some understandable fashion, or go daft.

[True Black Raven]

List of creatures referred to as Fairies.

List of Creatures

Seelie Court and the Urseelie Court

The High Courts of Faerie

The Seelie and Unseelie Courts

The Faerie Courts

A Hitchhiker's Guide to Faerie! • Always have your honey • Here is a rule list of things you should and should not do if you so happen to cross the threshold.. Some of these guidelines are based off lore and the rest are based off personal experience. …and seriously, bring honey.

The Realm of Faerie

Types of Fae from A–F
Types of Fae from G–L
Types of Fae from M–R
Types of Fae from S–X
Types of Fae from Y–Z

Websites and Helpful Links •
:--☆--:*:--☆:*:--☆--:*:--☆--:*:--☆--:*:--☆:*:--☆--:*:--☆--:*:--☆--:*:--☆:*:--☆--:*:--☆--::--☆--:*:--☆::--☆--:
www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/index.htm#fairies (Sacred Text: Celtic Faeries)
webspace.webring.com/people/ns/swingkid49/fairy.html (History of Fae)
eristic.net/fey/ (The Hollow Hill: On being faery and otherkin, glamourbombing, and magic, et cetera; also an acquaintance of mine)
walkingbetweenworlds.weebly.com/index.html (SPG site about the Vanir, an Elven race; their cultures, mythologies, and other personal experiences of two Vanir twins)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faery (Wikipedia article on Faery)
faerie.monstrous.com/ (Terminology of Faeries)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faeids (Wikipedia article on Faeids)
faerymists.tripod.com/links/resource.htm (More Faery resources)
www.faerydust.moonfruit.com/#/faery-links/4551285871 (more resources, mainly of Faerie festivals)
www.faemagazine.com/ (Fae Magazine, a UK based magazine dedicated to all things Fae and faery-like)
www.realfairies.net/ (A wonderful site dedicated to the history, cultures, and magic of the Elves of Fyn; also special podcasts from a leprechaun named Mr. E)

[Admin Pete]

That'll keep you busy a while, I have several thick books on the subject.

[robertsconley]

My take, I will make a PDF pamphlet out of the Faerie section of my Legendarium and share it tonight.

FAERIES
Magic in the Majestic Wilderlands is the force of creation made manifest. Before the creation of the Abyss and the Chromatic Crystals, the inherent level of magic was low. In order to be harnessed as a spell, it was laboriously gathered in a ritual and infused into a scroll, charm, or magical device. After the creation of the Chromatic Crystal, someone with a disciplined will could cast a spell without the use of a device.

Over the centuries magic did not turn into a science or craft because it was influenced by an individual’s emotional and mental state. What worked for one individual, often didn’t work for another. This susceptibility of magic to emotion had another consequence, the creation and evolution of faeries.

Faeries are creatures, and monsters born out of the ambient level of magic that flow throughout the Wilderlands. The emotional life of elves, men, and even plants and animals give birth to these creatures including the faeries that developed sentience. The nature of their birth has left all faeries with a singular drive to recreate the emotions that give them life. This typically manifests with the faeries using their abilities to recreate the circumstances of their birth. Using magic, to manipulate the environment and those around them into playing out certain stories and emotions, over and over again. This can led to dangerous situations when emotions like anger, hate, and fear are part of the faerie’s nature.

The key to dealing with the Faeries is to understand the emotions and stories that gave them birth.

The Elves and the Faerie
When the Wilderlands was created there were two sentient races; Elves and Men. The Elves were born as the glory of the Wilderlands, as a shining example of the potential of life. They were given great gifts however the price was that their fate was tied to the Wilderlands. One reason is the innate magic of the Wilderlands sustains their immortality and other gifts. Because of this, the elves feel kinship with the faeries, and in general will help them fulfill their nature. For the faeries that have the negative emotions as their nature the elves will still help them but try to do it in isolated locations far from the other races of the Wilderlands. Many elves realms have a large population of faeries.

[Admin Pete]

Apr 5, 2018 10:56:42 GMT -5 robertsconley said:

My take, I will make a PDF pamphlet out of the Faerie section of my Legendarium and share it tonight.

Snip

I would like to see that. I take it that the Legendarium is not a published product?

Your take is an interesting way to run things and IMO quite novel.

[robertsconley]

Apr 5, 2018 14:05:33 GMT -5 Admin Pete said:

Apr 5, 2018 10:56:42 GMT -5 robertsconley said:

My take, I will make a PDF pamphlet out of the Faerie section of my Legendarium and share it tonight.

Snip

I would like to see that. I take it that the Legendarium is not a published product?

Your take is an interesting way to run things and IMO quite novel.

Thanks, for a long time I didn't have an angle on how to roleplay Faeries and then a couple of years back I figured out what works for me.

Here is the download link to the full entry.
Faeries

The Legendarium is not a published product, yet.  it basically will be the "Monster Manual" for my Majestic Fantasy RPG.

[Admin Pete]

Apr 5, 2018 18:41:34 GMT -5 robertsconley said:

Apr 5, 2018 14:05:33 GMT -5 Admin Pete said:

I would like to see that. I take it that the Legendarium is not a published product?

Your take is an interesting way to run things and IMO quite novel.

Thanks, for a long time I didn't have an angle on how to roleplay Faeries and then a couple of years back I figured out what works for me.

Here is the download link to the full entry.
Faeries

The Legendarium is not a published product, yet.  it basically will be the "Monster Manual" for my Majestic Fantasy RPG.

Sweet!!

These jumped out as possible typo's.

When magic concentrate in a small region

"concentrates"

Harming or killing Nymph will invariably bring about a violent

reaction from the animals, planets, and sometimes the weather of

the region.

Should that be "a Nymph" and "plants" instead of "planets"?

[Hexenritter Verlag]

Apr 1, 2018 16:18:39 GMT -5 True Black Raven said:

Apr 1, 2018 16:08:29 GMT -5 Hexenritter Verlag said:

Nothing so far but I might be including them in my revisions I am just not sure. My old Rolemaster GM did so for sure in his world.

Do you remember any high points of what he did with it?

What I remember is they two courts had a fierce rivalry. Fey of both courts were frequent in the wilderness & were often interacting with the PCs. My PC got messed up because of help gained by the Fey - I basically sold out family in hopes to protect them from a big bad. My family were pissed off to say the least & disowned. He had Red Caps, Green Men & very intriguing Fey in his setting, which I'll likely emulate in my own fashion.

[xizallian]

Those are awesome links, thanks!!

[True Black Raven]

Apr 15, 2018 17:13:08 GMT -5 xizallian said:

Those are awesome links, thanks!!

Thank you!

[True Black Raven]

Has anyone read The Dresden Files books? I saw this blurb about them and wondered what people thought

If you want some slick inspiration, read the Dresden Files. There aren't elves, but the fey receive a great deal of characterization, summer and winter alike. You see the inherent paradox, they are immortal(?) creatures with great magical power and keen insight into the minds of others. Conversely, they are so trapped in their systems of honor that they are biologically incapable of breaking a promise or lying, even if it kills them. They also can't keep up with 20th/21st century technology, although this might not be a weakness in most D&D campaigns.

The Dresden Files novels, for example, play up the Summer and Winter connections. The Seelie are bright, colorful, and generally pleasant enough on the surface, but they can also be quick to anger and terrible in their power, like a summer's day giving way to a powerful thunderstorm. Alternatively, they might simply get carried away or be otherwise heedless of the consequences of their actions, turning from pleasant warmth to a dangerous heat wave.

The Unseelie are cold and vicious, but aren't entirely without compassion. After all, winter still has its mild days; it is not an unrelenting blizzard. They still experience some form of love, or at least emotional attachment, and while they might see mortals as playthings most of the time, they may develop a certain admiration for mortals who prove themselves capable of keeping up. Even then, mortals must remain on their guard - it's not uncommon for the Unseelie to have a sadomasochistic streak, and their version of kindness might not seem so pleasant to others.

[True Black Raven]

Slightly more in depth breakdown of the Fae.

Fae are spirits of a realm different from the mortal world.

The fairy realm, the Courts, etc. Dozens of names for it, and that's before you go into different languages.

The important things to know about fae on their own:

They are magical beings with thought processes similar but wholly different from our own; they are not descended from a bunch of hairy apes whose primary concerns are the next meal and the next mate. Instead they're timeless beings that are distinctly 'Other'.

A Fae cannot break a promise or tell a falsehood directly, but these spirits are capable of making pretzels out of what you thought was a straightforward statement, and can out-loophole the best lawyers in the world. Never take a Fae's words at face value, never make a promise or a request, and be careful.

And finally, as to the courts:

Seelie, the Court of Spring and Summer, of Beginnings, Life, Light, Flame, and in the Eternal Hunt, they are Prey. Just because they sound nice, though, doesn't mean they actually are.

Do remember that Life means more than just 'human life.' it means ALL life. The lives of insects, plants, and yes, diseases of all kinds, including things like the Black Plague.

Light Is Not Good is a statement for a reason too, and while warmth brings life, if the temperature goes too high, you get horrible burns, wildfires, and droughts. Finally, Prey can be just as dangerous as Predator. A deer's antlers are not just decoration.

Seelie are just as dangerous as Unseelie.

Unseelie, the Court of Autumn and Winter, of Endings, Death, Darkness, Frost, and in the Eternal Hunt, they are Predator. Just because they sound bad, though, doesn't mean that's all they are.

Death is more than just an ending; it balances life and keeps things from stagnating.

Darkness is no more Evil than light is good; darkness hides things and scares us, but it also grants places to hide and can protect us. And while frost can kill, there are plenty of kinds of life that need frost to thrive.

And of course, if you think predators are all bad, then remember that if Prey went uncontrolled, you'd be up to your eyeballs in rodents. (Also remember that dogs and cats are predators too)

This guy's got it in one. Seelie/silly fairies aren't exactly harmless, but they're the sort of fairies that like to play pranks and jokes, and are occasionally helpful, and are generally alright sorts. Unseelie/unsilly fairies, well ... uh, well there's your bridge trolls and your dullahan and your child-abducting goblins and the monsters that find you alone in the forest and eat you.

As to elves, this gets complicated in part because elves hail from a totally different mythology. The Norse alfr are a mythological race of immortals, not unlike the aesir (gods) and vanir (another tribe of gods). Where aesir were mighty and vanir were wise, alfr were skilled and knowledgeable in all sorts of crafts and magic (incidentally, "dwarf" comes from dvergr, who were in mythology usually synonymous with the svartalfr, or "dark elves"). There was of course cultural cross-pollination, as comparisons between willowy immortals from different regions are somewhat inevitable, but Tolkein really codified elves as we imagine them today by mixing Norse, Old British, Gaelic and Christian folklore.

"Fairy" in general is a bit of a complicated idea, especially as it appears in D&D, where mythology tends to get lumped together based on general feel and atmosphere. AFAIK, all the word really designates is a supernatural being from a particular region of the world, with attendant characteristics. We tend to see it as referring an ambiguously defined class of humanoid nature spirit, though. Nymphs, for instance, are Greek immortals, not fairies of the British Isles, but for D&D purposes, they're fey.

To sum it up, though. A Seelie fae will warn you when you're being an ass once, and will pull a prank on you that is harmless to fae but might very well get you killed ('the arrow wasn't cold iron I didn't know it could kill a human'). If you're familiar with Rip Van Winkle it's an American version of a common archetype often assigned to fae which if the courts are brought in are Seelie fae. They don't mean to ruin Rip's life they just party with him because dude wants to party, no their fault that dude doesn't know fae parties take 20 years. Similarly the story of Thomas the Rhymer includes a Seelie fae (the Queen of the Faeries) who blesses a storyteller with prophecy and the inability to lie, i.e. the most ironic punishment you can give a storyteller.

Unseelie fae are more likely to straight up gank you.

[True Black Raven]

On the Fae Court System, or Which Fae is Which?

ALTERNATE FEY COURTS

Classifications of Fairies

List of Creatures

Elf D&D

23 Types of Elves

Fairy Types

Fairy Beliefs

[Hexenritter Verlag]

Fae: The Fae are a strange and ageless folk whose forms, desires and needs greatly vary. Many of these traits reflect the very nature of the being. An example consists of a Fae connected to a tree will have aspects of that tree in it’s form and attitude. The sheer volume of types of Fae can stagger the mind, but they fall into three Courts. These Courts bind the Fae to a code of conduct and values. The two main courts are the Seelie and Unseelie Court. While many consider the Seelie Court good and the Unseelie Court evil but this, quite simply, is untrue. Think instead that the Courts represent nature: growth and destruction. Both parts are needed for the continuation of life and growth. The third Court, known as the Frozen Court, been claimed to be the most sinister in that they wish to stop this process. Instead this court wishes to preserve the world using natures natural tools – cold and ice. Needless to say that the Seelie and Unseelie court constantly strive to undermine and sabotage the works of this particular court. More info on the various types of Fae will be revealed through the written work of Domard Ginthrin, a Sage from the Freeland City of Bellgard.

The above is from my old Rolemaster GM's site. There might more woven through the various posts in his timeline & lands write-ups here.

[Q Man]

I'm glad this forum is of the Seelie Court, I couldn't take another Unseelie Court! Whew!

[Bartholmew Quarrels]

Jun 24, 2018 12:54:19 GMT -5 Q Man said:

I'm glad this forum is of the Seelie Court, I couldn't take another Unseelie Court! Whew!

I agree this is the Seelie Court and I am very tired of the UnSeelie Courts, I don't like being told I have to be pro morally repugnant stuff. It would be one thing is a neutral stance was allowed, but it has to be pro or nothing most places and I just can't do that.

[Q Man]

Jun 28, 2018 14:04:26 GMT -5 Bartholmew Quarrels said:

Jun 24, 2018 12:54:19 GMT -5 Q Man said:

I'm glad this forum is of the Seelie Court, I couldn't take another Unseelie Court! Whew!

I agree this is the Seelie Court and I am very tired of the UnSeelie Courts, I don't like being told I have to be pro morally repugnant stuff. It would be one thing is a neutral stance was allowed, but it has to be pro or nothing most places and I just can't do that.

Yeah, requiring you to support evil to be part of the in group is way past shark jumping territory. But enough about the SJW sites.

[True Black Raven]

I suppose since I dug up those links I should get around to writing something up. Maybe I will do that between Gygax and Arneson's Birthdays.

[Bartholmew Quarrels]

True Black Raven have you had time to do any write ups of fae that could be used in a game? There is a huge amount of material here and I was curious if you had had time to make use of any of it.

[True Black Raven]

Aug 23, 2018 17:02:20 GMT -5 Bartholmew Quarrels said:

True Black Raven have you had time to do any write ups of fae that could be used in a game? There is a huge amount of material here and I was curious if you had had time to make use of any of it.

Nah, not yet, I don't know when I'll get to it.