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Post by ripx187 on Sept 8, 2017 18:23:42 GMT -5
So, my last game went bad, and I mean BAD! Technically, it was a TPK, but instead, I got upset and yelled and stopped the game. It was a bad night. One of my players was given horrible news just as she was leaving the house. She is one of those people who keep things inside of her and bottle up everything, well, the dam broke and she drank half a bottle of vodka on an empty stomach and was hugging the toilet before play even started, and she was UPSET! Serious mental breakdown. She was bawling and beating herself up over everything that has happened in the last few years. It was bad.
It sounds mean, but we all met up to game, so game we did. The dungeon that we were playing is the most difficult that I had ever designed. Mix that with our dear friend in agony, people going back there to talk to her and try to get her to move to the couch so she could lay down. It was horrible, but we soldiered on and the players made horrendous mistakes, I screwed up an encounter almost killing a PC, and the dice were giving us bad bad numbers.
We've been playing this campaign, with some of these characters for going on 10 years now. This game is a big deal for us! All characters started at first level and worked their way up. We love them.
I know that I stopped the game because we had real reasons not to continue, but I got to tell you, it still feels cheap. How do you TPK a party that has been with us this long? How do you not TPK a party who lost?
As it sits, they have cornered themselves where if they leave they will die, but they have cornered the villain as well. There are no more choices, either they kill the witch or they die and considering that none of them are in any shape to take her out, they are going to die next game. I offered to reboot the game from where the session started, but their character sheets already reflect the events which took place. They don't want to play a You Win game. I get that, but right now we are playing a You Lose game. We've been playing this specific scenario for 6 sessions, and it is almost completed, but one bad night really put us into a situation.
There are some balance issues going on. We've got some problems with the mechanics of the cleric that only reared its head once tested in this dungeon, we discussed things and have decided to add a psionic power to her character. They are walking around with a holy relic, it is doing things to them and her character is really weird and spooky, I don't know why we didn't give her a wild talent before.
Anyway, the players don't want a reboot, but I know that we need to. If they choose to start in the dungeon where they left off, they are doomed. I can't honestly take it easy on them, they deserve my best. I made mistakes, they made mistakes, there are adjustments that we need to correct. I'm at a loss.
How do you kill a game that's been going on for so long because of one bad night? Do you?
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Post by scottanderson on Sept 8, 2017 19:11:20 GMT -5
Thank you for porting this conversation over here from your blog.
My first question is: is this campaign meant to be ongoing, or is it a mini-series style short campaign?
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Post by ripx187 on Sept 8, 2017 19:26:24 GMT -5
It is an ongoing game, but in a style that is episodic in nature. If you can't make it to the game that month, no biggy. I've got 10+ players but on game night about 6 show up, which I like. There are 5 players who are very regular and hardly ever miss games.
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Post by scottanderson on Sept 8, 2017 19:48:58 GMT -5
The first thing to do is to speak with the one or two players who are the leaders at table time. You undoubtedly have active players, who self-direct and want to change the world in some ways, as well as people who come to absorb a cool story and see what happens. The first kind of player is the one I'm talking about.
Speak with the leader or leaders. Preferably in person but via text or skype or whatever. Explain to them that you had meant for them to have better information before making the decisions they made. That what they did was not wrong, but somehow you were not able to give them the information they needed to make important decisions. And as a result, their characters and the characters of their friends were likely to be punished by the game system.
Tell them that this makes you unhappy and tell them why. Explain that you want to have fun, and it isn't fun to play when they can't play their best. You can say you blame yourself if you do indeed blame yourself.
Tell them what you think should happen. For instance, you suggested rolling back the campaign to the point where the female character was resurrected. Tell them why you think that is a more fun idea than continuing where you are now.
Ask them what they think should happen. Ask them if they are OK with a TPK, because you think that it is very likely to happen.
Philosophical Advice:
If after that conversation/those conversations, they are still OK with continuing from the current point in the adventure, you must decide whether you are willing to walk away from this campaign (not this table of players obviously) and move on to a new one. The world ending in a blaze of destruction isn't heroic or optimistic, but it is dramatic and cool and if you all can handle it right, it will be a story you will tell each other for decades.
Strategic Planning Advice:
If you are not willing to walk away - this is an important decision point so make sure - if you are not, then you need to make some changes to the story.
The first thing you have to figure out is, What happens if the players lose? What do the forces of evil accomplish? What is their goal and how do they come closer to it? Who might still stop them, and how do those people get involved? If it is a TPK, then what will be the premise for getting the new group of PCs together and what will be their rough power level?
Tactical Advice:
I think giving the Cleric a cool wild talent is a GREAT idea. It makes that character cool and unique, it's in flavor for the game world, and it helps to level the playing field for the good guys without feeling like you're letting them win.
Along those same lines, if there has ever been a powerful NPC or monster that the players have helped, now would be the time for that NPC to return the favor and reinforce them. Again, it feels "fair" because they "earned" the help.
The next thing you have to do is change the tactical situation. I know you say you don't want to "cheat" or "go easy" on them. I'm not saying you should take a dive. But you should make it at least possible that your players have a chance. There's always a chance, and you need to make sure they have a chance. Lower the Hit Dice and Hit Points of the big baddie. Give him a penalty of -2 or -4 to saves so spells affect him. Change the minions' tactics so they're not banging on the weakest members all the time. Maybe don't choose the optimal spells to cast every round.
Or, you can have the toughest PC and the main bad guy be forced into single combat. That will eliminate the bad guys' advantages and the good guys' liabilities.
If none of that works, make the battle political rather than physical. Maybe once one of the bad guys goes down, they would rather negotiate. Maybe the bad guys can be persuaded to work (for a time) for the good guys, or at least part ways without killing each other. |
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Post by captaincrumbcake on Sept 8, 2017 19:54:58 GMT -5
This.
We are human beings, first. Gamer might come 2nd for some, and 39th for others, but gaming shouldn't come before us being compassionate and understanding, and trying to help others that are suffering at the moment; a game can wait a few hours, a day, a week..even f-ing 3 months or a year!
Your player's state of being should have been the priority on the plate that evening. Sorry if this offends anyone, but, a game is just an effing game, folks.
Now, next meeting--have their Holy Relic do a Max Caulfield rewind of 1-2-3 hours; do a countdown if you need to and let them see time being turned back to a moment they want to restart. Would that break the game? your world? your group?
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Post by sixdemonbag on Sept 8, 2017 20:54:13 GMT -5
There is nothing wrong with a well-timed deus ex machina. Good enough for the ancient Greeks, good enough for D&D.
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Post by ripx187 on Sept 8, 2017 22:17:38 GMT -5
Holy crap scottanderson real advice that isn't condescending and is actually helpful. Did I log into the right internet? Consider yourself Exalted. This is good stuff, and I don't feel like such a douche. It is one thing to die from your own actions, it is another to become a victim of a bad night. Thank you! captaincrumbcake I am with you, but I also know her, she felt bad enough over what happened, stopping the game because of her would have really hurt her. We had her spend the night, she was so upset she made herself sick  I have had a mental breakdown, they aren't fun, they can't be skipped, and you've got to feel it. We gave her the space she needed and I'm glad that she did come over so that she didn't have to go through that alone. |
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Post by captaincrumbcake on Sept 8, 2017 22:22:09 GMT -5
That's good to hear ripx187. I didn't mean to come across so harshly, and I'm glad you were able to be there for her.
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Post by Admin Pete on Sept 8, 2017 22:51:15 GMT -5
This is a really good thread and I am really glad you got good advice that was helpful. I come from a different place philosophically and I don't consider a TPK losing for the ref or the players and the players I started with in college were on that same page. We kept the same campaign going for four years of college and the game continued after I left with the ones who were still there. Although we ranged from humanities majors to science and engineering majors we were still a very homogeneous group. We went through many TPK's the first year and it was just part of the game and after that we got better at surviving, for me that was what '75-'79 was. Even with the players a lot younger than me, I have had over the last 8 years have been pretty similar - no TPK's but death was just part of the game. So I don't have advice relative to the game, except for this - while I do not believe in putting your finger on the scales as a rule, given the circumstances I could easily justify a bit of a nudge to things.
But for your friends, be there for them and I am glad that while you might have had a tough time with the game you and your friends were there for your friend at a really bad time for her. Be happy about that, since that is what ultimately matters.
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Post by ripx187 on Sept 9, 2017 0:01:06 GMT -5
Death is part of the game Admin Pete but I prefer to have clean deaths. This one went down bad. We've played lots of games the way that you describe . . . this one is different. We are closer to these characters than in any game before them. We'll try it again with no take backs and see what happens. |
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Post by scottanderson on Sept 9, 2017 0:01:22 GMT -5
I prefer to play like that too Halenar. I would rather be rewarded with a deserved ignoble death of a beloved PC than have the fickle finger of fate fudge the future for me.
But that is not the only way to play, nor even the definite best way.
Just like conventional wisdom says "sandbox or bust" but actual play sometimes says different. Loads of people enjoy adventure paths. Loads of people enjoy single-player mode in video games. Loads of people love roller coasters. They're on rails!
Again: I agree with you about what's fun for me. But. That's not how everyone plays, and they're doing it right too.
The very most important thing is for everyone to be on the same page as far as expectations, as much as that's possible.
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Post by Admin Pete on Sept 9, 2017 0:28:04 GMT -5
Death is part of the game Admin Pete but I prefer to have clean deaths. This one went down bad. We've played lots of games the way that you describe . . . this one is different. We are closer to these characters than in any game before them. We'll try it again with no take backs and see what happens. I prefer to play like that too Halenar. I would rather be rewarded with a deserved ignoble death of a beloved PC than have the fickle finger of fate fudge the future for me. But that is not the only way to play, nor even the definite best way. Just like conventional wisdom says "sandbox or bust" but actual play sometimes says different. Loads of people enjoy adventure paths. Loads of people enjoy single-player mode in video games. Loads of people love roller coasters. They're on rails! Again: I agree with you about what's fun for me. But. That's not how everyone plays, and they're doing it right too. The very most important thing is for everyone to be on the same page as far as expectations, as much as that's possible. So I don't have advice relative to the game, except for this - while I do not believe in putting your finger on the scales as a rule, given the circumstances I could easily justify a bit of a nudge to things. |
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Post by mao on Sept 10, 2017 16:59:22 GMT -5
Outlandish times call for Outlandish measures!
The witch uses a powerfull Time spell, This atracts the attention of Hounds of Tindalos (a Lovecraft Beastie). They add a 3rd faction to the fight, the hounds attack both sides, The Hounds kill the witch and continue to fight the PCs but the witch severely wounds the hounds proceed with new fight vrs the new foe.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2017 17:07:53 GMT -5
A friend was having a major life trauma.
You say, "F*ck it, that night never happened" and rewind things back to where they were before the session.
The game is less important than people's lives.
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Post by Admin Pete on Sept 10, 2017 19:22:22 GMT -5
A friend was having a major life trauma. You say, "F*ck it, that night never happened" and rewind things back to where they were before the session. The game is less important than people's lives. Well, yeah that is what should be done, the problem (as I understand it) is for whatever reason the players don't want to do that. He is struggling with how to do the right thing without the solution creating a worse problem. |
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Post by ripx187 on Sept 11, 2017 15:50:09 GMT -5
We've figured it out, we're going to restart at a specific spot in the dungeon. Everything went fine up to that point, the events that took place after that point were visions of catastrophes. From here, there will be no take backs. The players know that they are headed into a death trap, and know what not to do. They have the information that I thought that they had already now, but if they don't then the game will be grim. I just have to make sure that it isn't MY fault.
This has pointed out to me that we are playing a story game. I suppose that that tends to happen when you really focus on the Role-playing aspect. You get attached, and I wanted them to feel for their PCs. We are playing a horror setting, the key to making things scary is being invested in the characters. That aspect of the game has been a success. This game is terrifying. It also pushes me into directions that I've never gone before. There are no modules, no play-tested material beyond the one little paperback that came in a boxset. All of these designs are mine, and every game is a playtest session. I never know the limits I can push on the PCs. I've had encounters which I thought would be really hard be walked over, but things that I thought would be easy turn into drawn out slug-fests. Usually, my instincts are correct, but the game never fails to surprise me.
At this stage in the game, the players are very powerful, and I have to find that balance. It may be the system, or it may be my design. For this stretch I took away their guns, they do no good here. Everything is dead already, except for the witch who they have yet to encounter. In order to make her a threat I have gone for illusion mixed with hit and run tactics. The players are forced to use weapons which they are not proficient in, against an enemy that is. I did that so that I could hurt them, I may have over-estimated the players, but I don't really know yet. This was a critical juncture in the game and because of things outside of the game I have a poor baseline for what happened.
I am going to tinker with the system some, as is I think that we have left the original intentions of the game's designers and are exploring new territory. The combat system is not balanced, it favors the players way too much and causes me to over-compensate. At range, the players are very very dangerous, but up close, they are squishy. Really squishy. We'll try again. Thanks again for all of your help.
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Post by distortedhumor on Sept 23, 2017 16:13:27 GMT -5
Might be time for deus ex machina.
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