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Post by mormonyoyoman on Aug 23, 2017 12:56:14 GMT -5
But too many people see "getting a keep" as retiring the character. In one forum I was talking about domain play; "take a bunch of wargamers, give them each a castle, an army, and a treasury, and you WILL get wars." Many people said that in that case their PCs would all settle down into a big peaceful kingdom. When I said in a case like that I'd invade somebody else's land just to stir things up, I was declared to be a big meanie-head. Yep. Pretty linear thought, but that is how it was basically presented. But none of us strictly followed that course, of course. If you'll remember my PC in Deb's game, Michael, wayyyy back when I spent 3 weeks in the Twin Cities with you two. He was a 3rd level MU who found a wand of illusion. I decided to go with a city plan and raise myself up in politics by using it, and wallah, in a short time I was living in sumptuous surroundings and not a shot (or magic-missile) fired. The game is not a linear exercise unless you want it to be (i.e., expediency). Linear... Never did (still don't) understand people who want to play a game where there IS A WHOLE WORLD or UNIVERSE, but want to limit themselves to whatever the GM already thought up. If I wanted linear, I'd still be dealing with that obnoxious pirate who stole my lantern and left me alone in windy, twisty passages. |
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Post by scottanderson on Aug 23, 2017 15:19:36 GMT -5
Have you engaged "domain level" play? Only playtesting and then play by email. One takeaway is, I think the extended nature of the turns lends itself to written orders. When it comes to conflict turns, then table time is better. What can you tell us about your experiences? |
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Post by Admin Pete on Aug 23, 2017 16:21:28 GMT -5
Well thank-ee, PD. I feel... well, exalted...  What the hecky-poo, I threw you an exalt also. It was just cluttering the place anyway, jumping and begging for a treat. You didn't announce it though! But I have plenty of Exalts and you are short one, so I am giving you another one. I would hate for you not to have one just cluttering the place, jumping and begging for a treat. |
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Post by robkuntz on Aug 23, 2017 16:42:18 GMT -5
Have you engaged "domain level" play? Only playtesting and then play by email. On every takeaway is, I think the extended nature of the turns lends itself to written orders. When it comes to conflict turns, then yeah table time is better. What can you tell us about your experiences? I am currently writing about this, and many other "things", for my next book offering. Generally speaking campaign play was integrated and not a separated and linear staging option as it is today. It occurred as a holistic and many-leveled aspect of play. So. The mindset regarding such was not "if" but only "when". With that came the matter of scale. EDIT: This is why when Jon Peterson was (recently) attempting to type Arneson's Blackmoor as a "campaign game" it made no sense to me. The two, campaign and group adventure, were always integrated and not separated in play under both the MMSA and LGTSA. |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Aug 23, 2017 20:14:47 GMT -5
Even worse is listening to a "bad beat" story about any fantasy football team other than the ones in your own league. Poker and fishing stories should also apply. ZZZzzz... A good fishing story is usually a lot of great laughs and usually told by an older relative that has you laughing every time he speaks. I'll bet YoYo man has a lot of great stories. I wish. For me, it's my idiot friends.  |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Aug 23, 2017 20:18:09 GMT -5
But too many people see "getting a keep" as retiring the character. In one forum I was talking about domain play; "take a bunch of wargamers, give them each a castle, an army, and a treasury, and you WILL get wars." Many people said that in that case their PCs would all settle down into a big peaceful kingdom. When I said in a case like that I'd invade somebody else's land just to stir things up, I was declared to be a big meanie-head. Yep. Pretty linear thought, but that is how it was basically presented. But none of us strictly followed that course, of course. If you'll remember my PC in Deb's game, Michael, wayyyy back when I spent 3 weeks in the Twin Cities with you two. He was a 3rd level MU who found a wand of illusion. I decided to go with a city plan and raise myself up in politics by using it, and wallah, in a short time I was living in sumptuous surroundings and not a shot (or magic-missile) fired. The game is not a linear exercise unless you want it to be (i.e., expediency). Whoa whoa whoa. Did we just get a PC story in a PC stories are annoying thread? Are we incepting ourselves??  |
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Post by ripx187 on Aug 23, 2017 20:24:38 GMT -5
But too many people see "getting a keep" as retiring the character. In one forum I was talking about domain play; "take a bunch of wargamers, give them each a castle, an army, and a treasury, and you WILL get wars." Many people said that in that case their PCs would all settle down into a big peaceful kingdom. When I said in a case like that I'd invade somebody else's land just to stir things up, I was declared to be a big meanie-head. Yep. Pretty linear thought, but that is how it was basically presented. But none of us strictly followed that course, of course. If you'll remember my PC in Deb's game, Michael, wayyyy back when I spent 3 weeks in the Twin Cities with you two. He was a 3rd level MU who found a wand of illusion. I decided to go with a city plan and raise myself up in politics by using it, and wallah, in a short time I was living in sumptuous surroundings and not a shot (or magic-missile) fired. The game is not a linear exercise unless you want it to be (i.e., expediency). That is a huge problem, in 2nd Edition AD&D it had the rules for owning property and gaining the benefits, but it doesn't tell the DM what to do with them. Players work their butts off to get to the appropriate level to attract followers and then the DM says, oh, we don't do that. I don't own too many high-level modules, but the ones that I do own are red-hot messes which I highly doubt are even functional as written. They aren't adventures, they are stories and my players have never played that way. The players handbook says that you are going to earn armies, but all of the other materials published require you to be a hobo. The game just doesn't function well when it is ran "as written", I played under many different DMs and found only 1 that was willing to go there and we had a blast! Players are just as bad about it, you mention land and they immediately get bored; thinking that it is something that it isn't. To me, it opens up a lot more potential to the game, now it isn't just yourself that you've got to worry about. I see it as a way to not have to do things that are tedious and a vehicle to really bring the world alive, it offers something to the game. The end of one phase and the begining of a new one. When games like World of Warcraft came out, D&D saw it as competition, but I never did. Always doing the same thing gets boring. If a player is skilled enough to keep his character alive, then why on earth is that character still forced to do the same crap that he did when he was mid-level? It is time to explore the world from a different perspective, he shouldn't be a local hero anymore, and I know that that isn't how the game is supposed to be played. When a cleric gets to the point where they can up and leave the plain of existence itself at any time, and any where you can't write modules for him anymore. Those players will except the limitations placed on them by a poor DM until they get bored, even if they are hobos. |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Aug 23, 2017 20:24:38 GMT -5
I've never played a wargame, experienced domain level play, or met anyone who has. This needs to be rectified.
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Post by robkuntz on Aug 23, 2017 20:41:11 GMT -5
Yep. Pretty linear thought, but that is how it was basically presented. But none of us strictly followed that course, of course. If you'll remember my PC in Deb's game, Michael, wayyyy back when I spent 3 weeks in the Twin Cities with you two. He was a 3rd level MU who found a wand of illusion. I decided to go with a city plan and raise myself up in politics by using it, and wallah, in a short time I was living in sumptuous surroundings and not a shot (or magic-missile) fired. The game is not a linear exercise unless you want it to be (i.e., expediency). Whoa whoa whoa. Did we just get a PC story in a PC stories are annoying thread? Are we incepting ourselves?? No. But your "bag" appears to be one "demon" short of a load... |
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Post by robkuntz on Aug 23, 2017 20:42:46 GMT -5
I've never played a wargame, experienced domain level play, or met anyone who has. This needs to be rectified. Then you begin your quest forthwith! I suggest taking the "other" fork in the road this time around... |
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Post by robkuntz on Aug 23, 2017 20:54:55 GMT -5
Yep. Pretty linear thought, but that is how it was basically presented. But none of us strictly followed that course, of course. If you'll remember my PC in Deb's game, Michael, wayyyy back when I spent 3 weeks in the Twin Cities with you two. He was a 3rd level MU who found a wand of illusion. I decided to go with a city plan and raise myself up in politics by using it, and wallah, in a short time I was living in sumptuous surroundings and not a shot (or magic-missile) fired. The game is not a linear exercise unless you want it to be (i.e., expediency). That is a huge problem, in 2nd Edition AD&D it had the rules for owning property and gaining the benefits, but it doesn't tell the DM what to do with them. Players work their butts off to get to the appropriate level to attract followers and then the DM says, oh, we don't do that. I don't own too many high-level modules, but the ones that I do own are red-hot messes which I highly doubt are even functional as written. They aren't adventures, they are stories and my players have never played that way. The players handbook says that you are going to earn armies, but all of the other materials published require you to be a hobo. The game just doesn't function well when it is ran "as written", I played under many different DMs and found only 1 that was willing to go there and we had a blast! Players are just as bad about it, you mention land and they immediately get bored; thinking that it is something that it isn't. To me, it opens up a lot more potential to the game, now it isn't just yourself that you've got to worry about. I see it as a way to not have to do things that are tedious and a vehicle to really bring the world alive, it offers something to the game. The end of one phase and the begining of a new one. When games like World of Warcraft came out, D&D saw it as competition, but I never did. Always doing the same thing gets boring. If a player is skilled enough to keep his character alive, then why on earth is that character still forced to do the same crap that he did when he was mid-level? It is time to explore the world from a different perspective, he shouldn't be a local hero anymore, and I know that that isn't how the game is supposed to be played. When a cleric gets to the point where they can up and leave the plain of existence itself at any time, and any where you can't write modules for him anymore. Those players will except the limitations placed on them by a poor DM until they get bored, even if they are hobos. Literalism and expediency have always won out with humans when you do the majority of work for them. OD&D required one to fill in the blanks and thus resulted in thousands of differing perspectives on how to negotiate individual paths. There was difference; and where there is difference there is change; and where there is change--through just raw statistics alone, even--there comes evolving perspectives. On the other hand plug-and-play offers the path of least resistance--a challenge everyone can meet and equal. But RPG was not about a gathering of people and players who were vying to see who could be the most ordinary. And therein lies the difference between self-description and having it described for you. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Aug 23, 2017 20:59:21 GMT -5
Yep. Pretty linear thought, but that is how it was basically presented. But none of us strictly followed that course, of course. If you'll remember my PC in Deb's game, Michael, wayyyy back when I spent 3 weeks in the Twin Cities with you two. He was a 3rd level MU who found a wand of illusion. I decided to go with a city plan and raise myself up in politics by using it, and wallah, in a short time I was living in sumptuous surroundings and not a shot (or magic-missile) fired. The game is not a linear exercise unless you want it to be (i.e., expediency). Whoa whoa whoa. Did we just get a PC story in a PC stories are annoying thread? Are we incepting ourselves??  I guess I missed the point of the thread, I thought it was about telling PC stories that are not annoying as opposed to the norm.  |
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Post by robkuntz on Aug 23, 2017 21:03:35 GMT -5
Whoa whoa whoa. Did we just get a PC story in a PC stories are annoying thread? Are we incepting ourselves?? I guess I missed the point of the thread, I thought it was about telling PC stories that are not annoying as opposed to the norm. There was a subtle coup started by Gronan and somewhat supported by six demons to go (paper or plastic?). It has been rerouted through the efforts of the Great d20 God. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Aug 23, 2017 21:04:15 GMT -5
EDIT: This is why when Jon Peterson was (recently) attempting to type Arneson's Blackmoor as a "campaign game" it made no sense to me. The two, campaign and group adventure, were always integrated and not separated in play under both the MMSA and LGTSA. It never occurred to me that campaign and group adventure were anything other than two words for the same thing, I am not sure now they would even be separated. I don't see them as integrated, I see them as one thing by design or perhaps I just have no understanding of what the distinction between them would be. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Aug 23, 2017 21:10:40 GMT -5
I too have always wanted to play the full game that includes "domain" play as a part of the picture. I have just not had the opportunity to play in a game or ref a game with anyone who wanted to do that. I have played out many things like that solo for fun as part of world building, but unfortunately solo is all that has been available. The pbp that I plan to start on Oct 1st and that I will be posting more about as we get into Sept. is planned to be all options are on the table and we'll see where it goes.
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Post by robkuntz on Aug 23, 2017 21:17:41 GMT -5
EDIT: This is why when Jon Peterson was (recently) attempting to type Arneson's Blackmoor as a "campaign game" it made no sense to me. The two, campaign and group adventure, were always integrated and not separated in play under both the MMSA and LGTSA. It never occurred to me that campaign and group adventure were anything other than two words for the same thing, I am not sure now they would even be separated. I don't see them as integrated, I see them as one thing by design or perhaps I just have no understanding of what the distinction between them would be. Integral (the root of 'integrated') means together, joined, as one. ?? Please, it's too late here for verbal gymnastics!  |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Aug 23, 2017 21:26:31 GMT -5
Whoa whoa whoa. Did we just get a PC story in a PC stories are annoying thread? Are we incepting ourselves?? No. But your "bag" appears to be one "demon" short of a load... You dare call me fivedemonbag?! The most wretched of all the demonbags!! Blasphemer!!!!  |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Aug 23, 2017 21:28:03 GMT -5
I've never played a wargame, experienced domain level play, or met anyone who has. This needs to be rectified. Then you begin your quest forthwith! I suggest taking the "other" fork in the road this time around... Yes, I will forthwith channel my inner Robert Frost... |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Aug 23, 2017 21:29:56 GMT -5
I guess I missed the point of the thread, I thought it was about telling PC stories that are not annoying as opposed to the norm. There was a subtle coup started by Gronan and somewhat supported by six demons to go (paper or plastic?). It has been rerouted through the efforts of the Great d20 God. Lol. "Somewhat Supported" was my band name in college. |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Aug 23, 2017 21:45:16 GMT -5
In all seriousness, even though I'm not familiar with domain and kingdom play (how did we get on this topic?), the fusion (more like evolution i suppose since it was new at the time) of the two is interesting. I think Risk! (and similar) has a lot of share in the blame as to why people don't seem to pursue wargames like they once did. Well, that and computers, of course.
I would of course love to try it out, as I like games in general, RPGs or otherwise. But, at the same time, it's so much fun to play a character amongst a small party, that I've never really sought out a true tabletop wargame experience. The computer versions of such never really grabbed me.
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Post by Admin Pete on Aug 23, 2017 21:47:22 GMT -5
Integral (the root of 'integrated') means together, joined, as one. ?? I know what the word means. Please, it's too late here for verbal gymnastics! No verbal gymnastics, I just don't understand how things are being defined, why and how are "campaign" and "group adventure" something other than a campaign is a group adventure? I don't know how these are being defined so that they are different things. I am not trying to be flippant or dense, I just don't know what you are all talking about. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Aug 23, 2017 21:48:27 GMT -5
No. But your "bag" appears to be one "demon" short of a load... You dare call me fivedemonbag?! The most wretched of all the demonbags!! Blasphemer!!!! I thought he was saying that six is one short of the perfection of seven! |
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Post by sixdemonbag on Aug 23, 2017 21:52:38 GMT -5
You dare call me fivedemonbag?! The most wretched of all the demonbags!! Blasphemer!!!! I thought he was saying that six is one short of the perfection of seven! Perfect 7?!!! Lies!! More blasphemy!! A misinterpreted insult?! Even better!! Uh ... I mean worse!! I exist in a constant state of confusion!!! |
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Post by Admin Pete on Aug 23, 2017 21:59:13 GMT -5
In all seriousness, even though I'm not familiar with domain and kingdom play (how did we get on this topic?), the fusion (more like evolution i suppose since it was new at the time) of the two is interesting. I think Risk! (and similar) has a lot of share in the blame as to why people don't seem to pursue wargames like they once did. Well, that and computers, of course. I would of course love to try it out, as I like games in general, RPGs or otherwise. But, at the same time, it's so much fun to play a character amongst a small party, that I've never really sought out a true tabletop wargame experience. The computer versions of such never really grabbed me. [OT]For me the sweet spot of computer games is Civilization III. You start in 4000 BC and you build a civilization, and you try to survive and win the game. Resource management and building the right thing at the right time is huge and do you build a new city or something else, do you build a road or do you irrigate. The number of decisions multiplies exponentially as the game progresses. What victory conditions do you choose, Conquest, Domination, Culture, Science or Politics. Designing your own starting conditions and then playing it out is for me a lot of fun. One of the challenges is that the AI cheats constantly and the more difficult the level the more it cheats. I like to set it on the highest level of difficulty and then tweak the start to see what conditions result in giving me about a 30-40% chance of matching the AI. It is not about winning, it is about handicapping things correctly in the starting design. I also enjoy deleting all the modern tech and trying to conquer the max size world with all pre-gunpower tech.[/OT] |
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Post by Admin Pete on Aug 23, 2017 22:00:28 GMT -5
I thought he was saying that six is one short of the perfection of seven! Perfect 7?!!! Lies!! More blasphemy!! A misinterpreted insult?! Even better!! Uh ... I mean worse!! I exist in a constant state of confusion!!! And you look like you really need more sleep and a good haircut too! |
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Post by robertsconley on Aug 23, 2017 22:35:56 GMT -5
I would of course love to try it out, as I like games in general, RPGs or otherwise. But, at the same time, it's so much fun to play a character amongst a small party, that I've never really sought out a true tabletop wargame experience. The computer versions of such never really grabbed me. You never tried to become the king, duke or baron? Build an inn? Become head of the mage's guild? I am not being critical it just trying to advance one's character's fortune and make one's mark is a common characteristic among the dozens of players I refereed over the years. Even most anti "I don't want to rule" group winds up with something if nothing else because now they have this big empty dungeon or locale that is empty of its inhabitants. |
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Post by robkuntz on Aug 23, 2017 22:47:40 GMT -5
Integral (the root of 'integrated') means together, joined, as one. ?? I know what the word means. Please, it's too late here for verbal gymnastics! No verbal gymnastics, I just don't understand how things are being defined, why and how are "campaign" and "group adventure" something other than a campaign is a group adventure? I don't know how these are being defined so that they are different things. I am not trying to be flippant or dense, I just don't know what you are all talking about. There's the campaign; and then there's "campaign play". |
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Post by robkuntz on Aug 23, 2017 22:49:13 GMT -5
Perfect 7?!!! Lies!! More blasphemy!! A misinterpreted insult?! Even better!! Uh ... I mean worse!! I exist in a constant state of confusion!!! And you look like you really need more sleep and a good haircut too! It's all deflection as he was the one to let the demon out the bag, not me... |
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Post by robkuntz on Aug 23, 2017 22:50:17 GMT -5
In all seriousness, even though I'm not familiar with domain and kingdom play (how did we get on this topic?), the fusion (more like evolution i suppose since it was new at the time) of the two is interesting. I think Risk! (and similar) has a lot of share in the blame as to why people don't seem to pursue wargames like they once did. Well, that and computers, of course. I would of course love to try it out, as I like games in general, RPGs or otherwise. But, at the same time, it's so much fun to play a character amongst a small party, that I've never really sought out a true tabletop wargame experience. The computer versions of such never really grabbed me. [OT]For me the sweet spot of computer games is Civilization III. You start in 4000 BC and you build a civilization, and you try to survive and win the game. Resource management and building the right thing at the right time is huge and do you build a new city or something else, do you build a road or do you irrigate. The number of decisions multiplies exponentially as the game progresses. What victory conditions do you choose, Conquest, Domination, Culture, Science or Politics. Designing your own starting conditions and then playing it out is for me a lot of fun. One of the challenges is that the AI cheats constantly and the more difficult the level the more it cheats. I like to set it on the highest level of difficulty and then tweak the start to see what conditions result in giving me about a 30-40% chance of matching the AI. It is not about winning, it is about handicapping things correctly in the starting design. I also enjoy deleting all the modern tech and trying to conquer the max size world with all pre-gunpower tech.[/OT] Yep CIV 2 and 3 were great. |
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Post by robkuntz on Aug 23, 2017 22:54:37 GMT -5
There was a subtle coup started by Gronan and somewhat supported by six demons to go (paper or plastic?). It has been rerouted through the efforts of the Great d20 God. Lol. "Somewhat Supported" was my band name in college. Not everyone wore jock straps, eh? |
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I guess I missed the point of the thread, I thought it was about telling PC stories that are not annoying as opposed to the norm. 
