Post by The Archivist on Jul 27, 2017 13:49:45 GMT -5
In reference to these arguments in favor of the thief
She replied
Previous post, different thread
I use the following:
1st Ed AD&D
One of the Archetypes of folklore is the Trickster. The trickster is a universal archetype found in almost every culture around the world. This new character class replaces the thief. In this campaign this character class with be known as the "Jack" character class in honor of Jack the Giant Killer aka The Brave Little Tailor and in honor of all the other Jacks of English folklore. You may recall that Jack the Giant Killer ends by marrying a princess and getting half a kingdom. It was his quick thinking and the ability to think outside the box and his persuasiveness that worked for Jack not his strength or quickness. This character class gains experience primarily from roleplaying that keeps/gets both the party and himself out of hot water. The primary method to earn experience is by taking the lead in those situations that involve talking, negotiating, bargaining, persuading, distracting, escaping or gaining the upper hand on those intelligent monsters or NPC’s with which the party has come into opposition.
Jack’s must be human only and have the following requirements:
Intelligence minimum 13
Wisdom minimum 13
Charisma minimum 13
All characters are rolled by 4d6, discarding the lowest die, and can arrange in any order.
Jack’s receive a 3% bonus per level on Loyalty base and on Reaction Adjustment. Jack’s are unusually perceptive in all respects and have great instincts as to how others are responding to them; this ability grows as they increase in level. The better the player roleplays, the more info the DM may give of what the character perceives and the greater the experience earned. They also have a +2 on the Maximum Number of Henchman that comes into effect at 5th level and an additional +2 that comes into effect at 10th level.
Jack’s Table I
Experience Points / Level / 8-sided hit dice
0 - 2,750 / 1 / 1 (max for first level)
2,751 - 5,500 / 2 / 2 (max for second level)
5,501 - 10,000 / 3 / 3 (from here on, roll and)
10,001 - 20,000 / 4 / 4 (add to max second)
20,001 - 40,000 / 5 / 5 (level hit points as is)
40,001 - 80,000 / 6 / 6 (standard for all classes)
80,001 - 160,000 / 7 / 7
160,001 - 320,000 / 8 / 8
320,001 - 640,000 / 9 / 9
640,001 - 1,000,000 / 10 / 10
This campaign stops at level 10.
Jack’s have no weapons restrictions, being as fighters in this respect; but by their very nature and philosophy would never wear armour greater than leather and sometimes a chainmail shirt. Jack’s use the attack matrix of clerics. Jack’s have the ability to appear to be in a slightly different location that they actually are giving an additional -1 to an opponents attack roll. This increases to a -2 at 5th level and a -3 at 10th level. These adjustments apply to all attacks, including savings throws for magical attacks. As Jack’s are unusually and extraordinarily observant they find secret or concealed doors and portals like elves and detect grade or slope, passages or tunnels, sliding or shifting rooms or walls, as would a dwarf. They also detect traps in general as a dwarf would detect traps involving pits, shifting or falling blocks and other stonework. Use the PHB thief table for ability to hear noises, hide in shadows and move silently. Jack’s have no other special abilities.
The player has to really be on his toes to earn the experience necessary to advance since I have given a high cost to gaining levels. But that is because if it is well played a Jack will be earning more experience that the other members of the party.
Conan (He followed a thieves career at one point)
Fafrd & The Grey Mouser (Fafrd had definitely tried his hand at thievery and the Grey Mouser was definitely a thief)
The Theives World series of books (The name says it all)
The Guardian of the Flame series (Carl was a thief)
Gord the Rogue (by Gary Gygax)
Robin Hood (He is iffy but I can understand the argument)
Fafrd & The Grey Mouser (Fafrd had definitely tried his hand at thievery and the Grey Mouser was definitely a thief)
The Theives World series of books (The name says it all)
The Guardian of the Flame series (Carl was a thief)
Gord the Rogue (by Gary Gygax)
Robin Hood (He is iffy but I can understand the argument)
For my part, it is plain and simple that I do not view the thief as an archetype throughout history. I do view the trickster as an archetype with a long history and the trickster does indeed number thieving as a part of the archetype, not the whole. As I have mentioned elsewhere, I run a "Jack" character class that is the trickster class. Most of the literary references aside from Robin Hood that you cite are recent rather than historical references. Robin Hood turned to banditry as a means of punishing his enemies, rather than from larcency. As far as the thieving abilities, while I do go with ability checks for those characters whose background support it, I view many of the thieving abilities as things that in differing amounts more properly belong to the demi-human races. If you look at the old literature and myth of elves they are often presented as having thieving as one of their characteristics. So for my part, I delete thieves, add the trickster and beef up the thieving abilities of demi-humans. I also make other changes to demi-humans to off-set the additional abilities.
One reason 1st level adventures are so lethal is because you end up with parties have no fighters or 1 fighter 6 magic-users 5 thieves and 1-3 clerics.
That is one reason that even in AD&D I don't allow thieves. In place of the thief character we use the Archetype of the "Trickster" which we call the "Jack" character class after Jack the Giant Killer aka The Brave Little Tailor. He ends up with the princess and half a kingdom as you may recall. One of the requirements for playing a "Jack" is that you have to really think outside the box and be a leader in getting/keeping the party out of hot water.
I try to encourage balanced parties, for example I like the ratio: 4 fighters, 1 magic-user, 1 cleric and 1 "Jack" if anyone feels up to playing that character. It helps when we establish a background for each character. Plus I make it expensive to be a magic-user and clerics are always having to deal with mother church.
I made it more interesting and more fun to be a fighter and also they have learned to be more creative if they want to be magic-users or clerics.
Because first level adventures are hard to survive.
That is one reason that even in AD&D I don't allow thieves. In place of the thief character we use the Archetype of the "Trickster" which we call the "Jack" character class after Jack the Giant Killer aka The Brave Little Tailor. He ends up with the princess and half a kingdom as you may recall. One of the requirements for playing a "Jack" is that you have to really think outside the box and be a leader in getting/keeping the party out of hot water.
I try to encourage balanced parties, for example I like the ratio: 4 fighters, 1 magic-user, 1 cleric and 1 "Jack" if anyone feels up to playing that character. It helps when we establish a background for each character. Plus I make it expensive to be a magic-user and clerics are always having to deal with mother church.
I made it more interesting and more fun to be a fighter and also they have learned to be more creative if they want to be magic-users or clerics.
Because first level adventures are hard to survive.
Interesting. What rules do you use for "Jack" characters?
1st Ed AD&D
One of the Archetypes of folklore is the Trickster. The trickster is a universal archetype found in almost every culture around the world. This new character class replaces the thief. In this campaign this character class with be known as the "Jack" character class in honor of Jack the Giant Killer aka The Brave Little Tailor and in honor of all the other Jacks of English folklore. You may recall that Jack the Giant Killer ends by marrying a princess and getting half a kingdom. It was his quick thinking and the ability to think outside the box and his persuasiveness that worked for Jack not his strength or quickness. This character class gains experience primarily from roleplaying that keeps/gets both the party and himself out of hot water. The primary method to earn experience is by taking the lead in those situations that involve talking, negotiating, bargaining, persuading, distracting, escaping or gaining the upper hand on those intelligent monsters or NPC’s with which the party has come into opposition.
Jack’s must be human only and have the following requirements:
Intelligence minimum 13
Wisdom minimum 13
Charisma minimum 13
All characters are rolled by 4d6, discarding the lowest die, and can arrange in any order.
Jack’s receive a 3% bonus per level on Loyalty base and on Reaction Adjustment. Jack’s are unusually perceptive in all respects and have great instincts as to how others are responding to them; this ability grows as they increase in level. The better the player roleplays, the more info the DM may give of what the character perceives and the greater the experience earned. They also have a +2 on the Maximum Number of Henchman that comes into effect at 5th level and an additional +2 that comes into effect at 10th level.
Jack’s Table I
Experience Points / Level / 8-sided hit dice
0 - 2,750 / 1 / 1 (max for first level)
2,751 - 5,500 / 2 / 2 (max for second level)
5,501 - 10,000 / 3 / 3 (from here on, roll and)
10,001 - 20,000 / 4 / 4 (add to max second)
20,001 - 40,000 / 5 / 5 (level hit points as is)
40,001 - 80,000 / 6 / 6 (standard for all classes)
80,001 - 160,000 / 7 / 7
160,001 - 320,000 / 8 / 8
320,001 - 640,000 / 9 / 9
640,001 - 1,000,000 / 10 / 10
This campaign stops at level 10.
Jack’s have no weapons restrictions, being as fighters in this respect; but by their very nature and philosophy would never wear armour greater than leather and sometimes a chainmail shirt. Jack’s use the attack matrix of clerics. Jack’s have the ability to appear to be in a slightly different location that they actually are giving an additional -1 to an opponents attack roll. This increases to a -2 at 5th level and a -3 at 10th level. These adjustments apply to all attacks, including savings throws for magical attacks. As Jack’s are unusually and extraordinarily observant they find secret or concealed doors and portals like elves and detect grade or slope, passages or tunnels, sliding or shifting rooms or walls, as would a dwarf. They also detect traps in general as a dwarf would detect traps involving pits, shifting or falling blocks and other stonework. Use the PHB thief table for ability to hear noises, hide in shadows and move silently. Jack’s have no other special abilities.
The player has to really be on his toes to earn the experience necessary to advance since I have given a high cost to gaining levels. But that is because if it is well played a Jack will be earning more experience that the other members of the party.
