As I See It; The Silence Regarding Dave Arneson

[robkuntz]

1)  The earliest record is being ignored, omitted from research or minimized
2)  The MMSA members waited too long to chime in on what they experienced; they do not seem to have a unified front in promoting that point in time and except for SoB have been very silent, almost paralyzed, when it comes to the subject of Arneson
3) The Gygax/Chainmail angle is now entrenched as "truth"
4) The market determines what history books are published on D&D and their content:  The name Gygax sells; Arneson's does not

Arneson, to save his legacy, must now become a very controversial subject; I tried the reasoned, scholarly approach through DATG and the industry and hobby collectively YAWNED while a selection of these folks went about insulting me.  Do not buck the establishment was the unspoken response...  Do not challenge the narrative or else face the wrath of those who oppose change for their own selfish purposes.  I no longer truly recognize this industry as a manifestation of the Wargames hobby that brought it into being; it is some politicized mess sustained by willful ignorance or selfishness.  The truth would not be damned BITD when I was an IFW member, LGTSA President and co-editor of the Domesday Book.  Not so today.

I was asked in a related thread about my influence with WotC.  Well, I have none.  All I have is a voice, a pen and e-mail addresses.

No rant here, no plan as yet, but it is a proclamation of sorts.  I will not go quietly into the night.  Arneson was my friend, co-worker and I contributed to his designs, even.  He graced my house with his presence and I have graced his both in Minnesota and Lake Geneva.  I will not forget him and consign his memory to some anecdotal bin of history.  I know better, for I know the truth.

[Admin Pete]

I do not comprehend how people can look at the "Forward...." in Men & Magic and not understand that Gygax right there says as plain as day that Arneson created this game and when word came to me (Gygax) the game was brought to market. Plain as day, Arneson created it and Gygax got it into written form to publish. Yet people ignore the testimony of the document itself. When I first read it back in 1975 I was completely clear on who created the game called Dungeons & Dragons and his name was Dave Arneson. No doubt in my mind then, and no doubt in my mind nearly 42 years later.

[robkuntz]

Jul 23, 2017 21:43:07 GMT -5 Admin Pete said:

I do not comprehend how people can look at the "Forward...." in Men & Magic and not understand that Gygax right there says as plain as day that Arneson created this game and when word came to me (Gygax) the game was brought to market. Plain as day, Arneson created it and Gygax got it into written form to publish. Yet people ignore the testimony of the document itself. When I first read it back in 1975 I was completely clear on who created the game called Dungeons & Dragons and his name was Dave Arneson. No doubt in my mind then, and no doubt in my mind nearly 42 years later.

Ah.  But that's the rub.  Gary wrote D&D and substituted his mechanics and claims that it "came from" Chainmail, so in effect, Gary created D&D.

However he did not create the Role Playing Game, Arneson did.   Arneson created the RPG engine and the first RP setting to test, and continue building it, within.

Then Gary creates the second (but the first published), which then, due to widespread commercialization, becomes the "First".

I know the order of things, I was there.  Without Blackmoor there would have been no D&D and TSR would have been just another one of those shoe-string wargame miniature rules companies proliferating the landscape back then.

[mormonyoyoman]

I'll give Gygax his due credit in that he actually published something, even if he he used different rules, poorly presented. Did Dave ever settle on a final set of rules? If not, there's nothing to sell, no product, and no one who hasn't met Arneson can learn the concept of rolegaming.

So I'll credit Gary Gygax for writing the first "set" of rules, even with all their inadequacies. But it's always been obvious (re: Admin noting that the original rulebook even stated) that Dave Arneson created rolegaming.

[Admin Pete]

I just posted this in a thread elsewhere:

Jul 25, 2017 7:18:23 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

I think your use of the word [insert "Campaign"] is ambiguous in how it implies an unbroken chain of events.

Just a comment from what most will likely consider the peanut gallery. I use the term Blackmoor Campaign specifically to imply an unbroken chain of events from the first time Dave Arneson played in the first Braunstein (the point in time that Blackmoor started in Dave's mind IMO) until he played his last game. How else would you use it. There is an unbroken chain of creativity in action across that entire span of time. That is Blackmoor and that is the first Fantasy Roleplaying Game! That point should be beyond any debate and not be up for debate. That is an iron clad fact, whether anyone is willing to admit it or not. All the different influences came together in one man, Dave Arneson.



If I were describing my campaign and you asked me when it started, I would tell you it started when my reading of fiction first led me into world building when I was 10 years old, 8 years before D&D was published, that is when my campaign started. Likely the Blackmoor campaign really started when Dave Arneson was 10 years old or even younger, if we knew everything. It was an unbroken chain of events and that should not be implied it should be boldly stated and accepted.





Blackmoor is a Campaign, a Setting and a Fantasy Roleplaying game all at the same time. Blackmoor was/is the FRPG game engine that Arneson created and his campaign and his world setting, all are simultaneously true.

[cadriel]

Is there silence about Dave Arneson? The best history of the origin of roleplaying games remains Playing at the World, and it is inaccurate to say that Arneson's role was ignored, omitted or minimized. Jon fully credits Arneson with taking each of the steps that goes from Braunstein to Blackmoor and creating the roleplaying game framework in the process.

Are the MMSA players silent? Eight years ago, Greg Svenson wrote an account of The First Dungeon Adventure. Here is a list of MMSA players who talk about Blackmoor at the Comeback Inn - including Greg Svenson, Bob Meyer, Fred Funk, and Michael Mornard.

Is the potted history of Gygax and Chainmail entrenched as "truth"? Again, only by people who read the breezy WotC corporate history and not the in-depth scholarship of Playing at the World. It's impossible to read that book and come away with that impression.

There are a couple of biographies of Gary that present his angle on D&D history, but they are not serious histories like PatW. I hope somebody does a good biography of Dave Arneson some day, because he seems like he was an interesting guy.

[robkuntz]

Jul 25, 2017 14:27:04 GMT -5 cadriel said:

Is there silence about Dave Arneson? The best history of the origin of roleplaying games remains Playing at the World, and it is inaccurate to say that Arneson's role was ignored, omitted or minimized. Jon fully credits Arneson with taking each of the steps that goes from Braunstein to Blackmoor and creating the roleplaying game framework in the process.

Are the MMSA players silent? Eight years ago, Greg Svenson wrote an account of The First Dungeon Adventure. Here is a list of MMSA players who talk about Blackmoor at the Comeback Inn - including Greg Svenson, Bob Meyer, Fred Funk, and Michael Mornard.

Is the potted history of Gygax and Chainmail entrenched as "truth"? Again, only by people who read the breezy WotC corporate history and not the in-depth scholarship of Playing at the World. It's impossible to read that book and come away with that impression.

There are a couple of biographies of Gary that present his angle on D&D history, but they are not serious histories like PatW. I hope somebody does a good biography of Dave Arneson some day, because he seems like he was an interesting guy.

Yes.  It's (his) history has been minimized, even by Gary himself.  His quotes are endless upon the subject.  As far as the MMSA they have been mostly tight-lipped except for an occasional snippet here or there, but no concrete or lasting record/work forthcoming,  Even Secrets of Blackmoor, whom I am in intimate contact with, admits to this.  It took them almost three years to gain the trust of many of its members to the point that they'd open up to them for the documentary.  The accounts and inferences that D&D us descended from Chainmail are rife:  just go to Wiki "Chainmail" and read it, for one.  There are too any others including the WotC timeline and even PATW that frames it that way as, once again, an inference.  It is not Jon who is doing the most research on Blackmoor, btw, but Secrets of Blackmoor and Dan Boggs.  Jon glossed quite a bit on it in PATW.  Dave Arneson created the RPG concept, so "interesting guy" is in fact an understatement.

[Admin Pete]

Jul 25, 2017 14:27:04 GMT -5 cadriel said:

Is there silence about Dave Arneson? The best history of the origin of roleplaying games remains Playing at the World, and it is inaccurate to say that Arneson's role was ignored, omitted or minimized. Jon fully credits Arneson with taking each of the steps that goes from Braunstein to Blackmoor and creating the roleplaying game framework in the process.

Are the MMSA players silent? Eight years ago, Greg Svenson wrote an account of The First Dungeon Adventure. Here is a list of MMSA players who talk about Blackmoor at the Comeback Inn - including Greg Svenson, Bob Meyer, Fred Funk, and Michael Mornard.

Is the potted history of Gygax and Chainmail entrenched as "truth"? Again, only by people who read the breezy WotC corporate history and not the in-depth scholarship of Playing at the World. It's impossible to read that book and come away with that impression.

There are a couple of biographies of Gary that present his angle on D&D history, but they are not serious histories like PatW. I hope somebody does a good biography of Dave Arneson some day, because he seems like he was an interesting guy.

I am quite fond of The Comeback Inn; unfortunately (and I mean no offense by this) it is off the beaten path and for that matter OD&D Discussion is off the beaten path. We here are even further off the beaten path. When you look at the larger D&D/RPG forums Arneson is not even in the conversation. So yes there is resounding silence about Dave Arneson where it most needs to be heard. Even on the moderate sized D&D/RPG forums there is little if any mention of Arneson or credit given to him. The Gygax alone narrative is wide spread and pervasive.

For the hobby at large yes the MMSA players are essentially silent, because again The Comeback Inn as much as I love it is a low traffic forum and when I Google "Blackmoor" - The Comeback Inn does not appear in the top 100 results, if I Google "Blackmoor game", it still does not show up. Now if I Google Blackmoor and Dave Arneson then it shows up. But how many people know who Dave Arneson is that are under 50 and never played OD&D? If you search for "Original Dungeons and Dragons" it does not show up. What search terms are there that a young rpg player would enter that would lead them to The Comeback Inn. Some info is there, but it is not publicized in a way that would draw a large number of page views every day to the site.

The more I find out about what could have been in PatW and is not in it, the less impressed I grow about the book. I have a lot of misgivings about the objectivity of what is presented versus what is omitted. Part of it is because Jon has a way of talking a lot but still coming across as having given a vague non-answer. I have noticed as people question him that he won't give a firm yes or a firm no.  As I said above, right in the "Forward...." Gygax states as plain as day that Arneson created this game and brought it to me and I wrote it up and published it. Everyone ignores that part.

[bravewolf]

Jul 25, 2017 15:15:18 GMT -5 Admin Pete said:

Jul 25, 2017 14:27:04 GMT -5 cadriel said:

Is there silence about Dave Arneson? The best history of the origin of roleplaying games remains Playing at the World, and it is inaccurate to say that Arneson's role was ignored, omitted or minimized. Jon fully credits Arneson with taking each of the steps that goes from Braunstein to Blackmoor and creating the roleplaying game framework in the process.

Are the MMSA players silent? Eight years ago, Greg Svenson wrote an account of The First Dungeon Adventure. Here is a list of MMSA players who talk about Blackmoor at the Comeback Inn - including Greg Svenson, Bob Meyer, Fred Funk, and Michael Mornard.

Is the potted history of Gygax and Chainmail entrenched as "truth"? Again, only by people who read the breezy WotC corporate history and not the in-depth scholarship of Playing at the World. It's impossible to read that book and come away with that impression.

There are a couple of biographies of Gary that present his angle on D&D history, but they are not serious histories like PatW. I hope somebody does a good biography of Dave Arneson some day, because he seems like he was an interesting guy.

I am quite fond of The Comeback Inn; unfortunately (and I mean no offense by this) it is off the beaten path and for that matter OD&D Discussion is off the beaten path. We here are even further off the beaten path. When you look at the larger D&D/RPG forums Arneson is not even in the conversation. So yes there is resounding silence about Dave Arneson where it most needs to be heard. Even on the moderate sized D&D/RPG forums there is little if any mention of Arneson or credit given to him. The Gygax alone narrative is wide spread and pervasive.

For the hobby at large yes the MMSA players are essentially silent, because again The Comeback Inn as much as I love it is a low traffic forum and when I Google "Blackmoor" - The Comeback Inn does not appear in the top 100 results, if I Google "Blackmoor game", it still does not show up. Now if I Google Blackmoor and Dave Arneson then it shows up. But how many people know who Dave Arneson is that are under 50 and never played OD&D? If you search for "Original Dungeons and Dragons" it does not show up. What search terms are there that a young rpg player would enter that would lead them to The Comeback Inn. Some info is there, but it is not publicized in a way that would draw a large number of page views every day to the site.

The more I find out about what could have been in PatW and is not in it, the less impressed I grow about the book. I have a lot of misgivings about the objectivity of what is presented versus what is omitted. Part of it is because Jon has a way of talking a lot but still coming across as having given a vague non-answer. I have noticed as people question him that he won't give a firm yes or a firm no.  As I said above, right in the "Forward...." Gygax states as plain as day that Arneson created this game and brought it to me and I wrote it up and published it. Everyone ignores that part.

PD's point is well taken. I was born in 1974 & started playing via Mentzer's 1983 Red Box (back in 1983) and quickly got into AD&D, in which Gygax is front and center all the way. The only reason that I've been cognizant of Arneson's role (indeed, that he even existed!) is I ran across one of the OD&D White Boxes in 1994 and snapped it up for a cool $20. For gamers that I grew up with & of my generation, I am sad to say that DA was long a byline at best.

[Mighty Darci]

Jul 25, 2017 15:54:16 GMT -5 bravewolf said:

PD's point is well taken. I was born in 1974 & started playing via Mentzer's 1983 Red Box (back in 1983) and quickly got into AD&D, in which Gygax is front and center all the way. The only reason that I've been cognizant of Arneson's role (indeed, that he even existed!) is I ran across one of the OD&D White Boxes in 1994 and snapped it up for a cool $20. For gamers that I grew up with & of my generation, I am sad to say that DA was long a byline at best.

I concur, the only reason that I know about Arneson is that my dad is an OD&D player (he was 43 when I was born) otherwise I would not have known about Arneson or OD&D either one.

[cadriel]

Jul 25, 2017 15:01:06 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

Yes.  It's (his) history has been minimized, even by Gary himself.  His quotes are endless upon the subject.  As far as the MMSA they have been mostly tight-lipped except for an occasional snippet here or there, but no concrete or lasting record/work forthcoming,  Even Secrets of Blackmoor, whom I am in intimate contact with, admits to this.  It took them almost three years to gain the trust of many of its members to the point that they'd open up to them for the documentary.  The accounts and inferences that D&D us descended from Chainmail are rife:  just go to Wiki "Chainmail" and read it, for one.  There are too any others including the WotC timeline and even PATW that frames it that way as, once again, an inference.  It is not Jon who is doing the most research on Blackmoor, btw, but Secrets of Blackmoor and Dan Boggs.  Jon glossed quite a bit on it in PATW.  Dave Arneson created the RPG concept, so "interesting guy" is in fact an understatement.

I never met Dave, and can't say much at all about him as an individual; that's why I'd like for someone to write a biography.

I do find his own account of the genesis of RPGs fascinating:

jovianclouds.com/blackmoor/Archive_OLD/rpg2.html

The Wikipedia entry for Chainmail says "Dungeons & Dragons began as a Chainmail variant." Dave Arneson wrote "So we began wit CHANMAIL'S simple combat matrix and the handful of monsters and spells that it contained." History of course is more nuanced - Dave says that he was changing things "Almost immediately, like during the first game" - and it's clear that Chainmail was transcended and a new game had been created, before the end of the first session. But it would be false to say that Blackmoor didn't start with Chainmail when Dave said in his own words that it did. It's an article about Chainmail, not about D&D.

Dave said that Braunstein (specifically the "Annaban Republic" game) was "Not quite role playing but real close" and that RPGs came about when he created a synthesis of Chainmail's skirmish rules and Braunstein's goal concept, and quickly went to new territory that neither game had explored. He doesn't use the word "synthesis" but we can't describe the origins of Blackmoor without talking about Chainmail and Braunstein.

The "official" potted history is a drastic oversimplification - it always is. The role of Chainmail was small, and most of the system was developed by Arneson from whole cloth. He published The First Fantasy Campaign. No one with any history seriously disputes that Blackmoor was the first RPG. Playing at the World acknowledges this. Designers & Dragons acknowledges this. PatW should probably be rewritten entirely, because of the wealth of material that was not available to Jon at the time; but it puts Dave in his place as the referee of the first RPG.

Honestly, Rob: if you want Dave to be recognized more, you should publish a memoir of gaming in the '70s. If you write it like you did in the section of Dave Arneson's True Genius where you describe the TSR board meeting, it would make very compelling reading, and your story would help balance all the Gygax biographies.

[Admin Pete]

Jul 26, 2017 11:31:19 GMT -5 cadriel said:

The "official" potted history is a drastic oversimplification - it always is. The role of Chainmail was small, and most of the system was developed by Arneson from whole cloth. He published The First Fantasy Campaign. No one with any history seriously disputes that Blackmoor was the first RPG. Playing at the World acknowledges this. Designers & Dragons acknowledges this. PatW should probably be rewritten entirely, because of the wealth of material that was not available to Jon at the time; but it puts Dave in his place as the referee of the first RPG.

The problem is when I read Playing at the World I don't come away with the feeling that the role of Chainmail was small and when I read Jon's blog and forum posts I really don't get that impression in the least. A lot of vague and evasive non-answers don't help when he is asked questions. I have not read the other book.

Jul 26, 2017 11:31:19 GMT -5 cadriel said:

Honestly, Rob: if you want Dave to be recognized more, you should publish a memoir of gaming in the '70s. If you write it like you did in the section of Dave Arneson's True Genius where you describe the TSR board meeting, it would make very compelling reading, and your story would help balance all the Gygax biographies.

I agree that section was fascinating.

[robkuntz]

A Teacher Who Is Teaching a Student Meets with His Parents

T: Hello, I have some news about your son.

P: What is it, he hasn't done anything wrong has he?

T: No, quite the opposite, he's done some things that, quite amazingly, I have never seen done before, you know, genius level stuff.

P: OH! You had us worried!

P: How's he doing in math and reading, you know, and how's he fitting in with the regular kids?

T: Well, I guess, I mean, you know, he's done some things that really are above the norm for his class, that's why I'm here, to let you know….

P: We thank you for that and do keep us informed if he seems less than standard.

[robkuntz]

RJK Who Has Researched Arneson's System and Concluded that it Broke with 2,000 Years of Design History Reveals it To The RPG Community

R: Hi, I have some news about Dave Arneson via a new book. He's a F---ing Genius and here are the facts!

RPGC: Who? You talk funny. Did you read PATW? I like that.

R: Dave Arneson, you know, the one who invented the RPG. I describe it in detail, how this originated, how it leapt past what we know and perceive of as a game.

RPGC: Does it have illustrations? I like skeletons. It isn't RPG unless there are skeletons, you know. Hey! Didn't you design a module or something?

R: Well, yes, I mean, you know, Arneson's done some things that really are above the norm for his class, that's why I'm here, to let you know….

RPGC: OH! Well, let us know when you find an actual bit like a manuscript, we like manuscripts, just like skeletons. They don't have to lead anywhere, in fact it's more FUN if they don't, as then we don't have to conclude anything at all!

[cadriel]

You talk about it like Dave was Hephaestus in the forge of creation when by his own account he was a 23 year old who had an idea for a game while he was "reading CONAN novels and watching old monster movies while munching on popcorn". I just find that contrast ... well, it's something. Must've been some good popcorn.

[robkuntz]

Jul 26, 2017 16:40:07 GMT -5 cadriel said:

You talk about it like Dave was Hephaestus in the forge of creation when by his own account he was a 23 year old who had an idea for a game while he was "reading CONAN novels and watching old monster movies while munching on popcorn". I just find that contrast ... well, it's something. Must've been some good popcorn.

You gotta start somewhere; and popcorn or not, it ends up here.

[robkuntz]

The 3 quotes that I use at the beginning of the chapter: What Arneson Knew--extracted from my book A New Ethos in Game Design:


What Arneson Knew


The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function. -- F. Scott Fitzgerald

Self-organization produces heterogeneity and unpredictability. It is likely to come up with whole new structures, whole new ways of doing things. It requires freedom and experimentation, and a certain amount of disorder. -- Donella H. Meadows, Thinking in Systems

Self-organization is basically the spontaneous creation of a globally coherent pattern out of the local interactions between initially independent components. -- Francis Heylighen, The Science of Self-Organization and Adaptivity

This really describes Arneson and his processes en total.

[robkuntz]

“Rob Kuntz and I had acquired a large number of 40mm figures, and many of them were so heroic looking that it seemed a good idea to play some games which would reflect the action of the great swords and sorcery yarns. So I devised such rules, and the Lake Geneva Tactical Studies Association proceeded to play-test them. When the whole appeared as CHAINMAIL, Dave began using the fantasy rules for his campaign, and he reported a number of these actions to the C&C Society by way of articles. I thought that this usage was quite interesting, and a few months later when Dave came down to visit me we played a game of his amended CHAINMAIL fantasy campaign. Dave had taken the man-to-man and fantasy rules and modified them for his campaign. Players began as Heroes or Wizards. With sufficient success they could become Superheroes. In a similar fashion, Wizards could become more powerful. Additionally, he had added equipment for players to purchase and expanded the characters descriptions considerably — even adding several new monsters to the rather short CHAINMAIL line-up.” — Gary Gygax (The Dragon #7)

[robkuntz]

As my wife and I are going grocery shopping on Thursday (already here by a notch in France) I will post commentary on the colored parts of the above quotes by Gary when time permits, perhaps Friday, as it will be quite extensive.

[bravewolf]

Jul 26, 2017 17:31:20 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

As my wife and I are going grocery shopping on Thursday (already here by a notch in France) I will post commentary on the colored parts of the above quotes by Gary when time permits, perhaps Friday, as it will be quimte extensive.

I am looking forward to the commentary!

[Admin Pete]

Jul 26, 2017 16:24:32 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

RPGC:  They don't have to lead anywhere, in fact it's more FUN if they don't, as then we don't have to conclude anything at all!

Wait! What!? How do you have FUN if you don't take things in, draw conclusions, make decisions, act on them, rinse and repeat?

[robkuntz]

Jul 26, 2017 17:49:01 GMT -5 Admin Pete said:

Jul 26, 2017 16:24:32 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

RPGC:  They don't have to lead anywhere, in fact it's more FUN if they don't, as then we don't have to conclude anything at all!

Wait! What!? How do you have FUN if you don't take things in, draw conclusions, make decisions, act on them, rinse and repeat?

It's called getting a "participation trophy".

[mormonyoyoman]

Jul 26, 2017 16:45:32 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

The 3 quotes that I use at the beginning of the chapter: What Arneson Knew--extracted from my book A New Ethos in Game Design:


What Arneson Knew


The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function. -- F. Scott Fitzgerald

Self-organization produces heterogeneity and unpredictability. It is likely to come up with whole new structures, whole new ways of doing things. It requires freedom and experimentation, and a certain amount of disorder. -- Donella H. Meadows, Thinking in Systems

Self-organization is basically the spontaneous creation of a globally coherent pattern out of the local interactions between initially independent components. -- Francis Heylighen, The Science of Self-Organization and Adaptivity

This really describes Arneson and his processes en total.

Further, to the outside observer - especially one who hasn't followed or blazed the same trail - the above procedures resemble intuition, and are frequently dismissed as serendipity or coincidence. (I have no idea who wrote this, only that I read it in 1969 in a book which was printed around 1948 or 1949. Yes, I'm terrible with names, so I don't know why I can remember so many dates.)

[mormonyoyoman]

By the way, I really like Rob's allegorical metaphor and think it should be a part of the foreword to his next book. Besides, you know that I never metaphor that I didn't like.

[Admin Pete]

Jul 26, 2017 17:54:59 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

Jul 26, 2017 17:49:01 GMT -5 Admin Pete said:

Wait! What!? How do you have FUN if you don't take things in, draw conclusions, make decisions, act on them, rinse and repeat?

It's called getting a "participation trophy".

 Sob! My life has been so empty! I've never gotten a "participation trophy"!    What I have gotten is a kick in the seat of my pants and "Get back on that horse and don't fall off this time!"   And it worked!

[Deleted]

Jul 26, 2017 16:24:32 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

RJK Who Has Researched Arneson's System and Concluded that it Broke with 2,000 Years of Design History Reveals it To The RPG Community

R: Hi, I have some news about Dave Arneson via a new book. He's a F---ing Genius and here are the facts!

RPGC: Who? You talk funny. Did you read PATW? I like that.

R: Dave Arneson, you know, the one who invented the RPG. I describe it in detail, how this originated, how it leapt past what we know and perceive of as a game.

RPGC: Does it have illustrations? I like skeletons. It isn't RPG unless there are skeletons, you know. Hey! Didn't you design a module or something?

R: Well, yes, I mean, you know, Arneson's done some things that really are above the norm for his class, that's why I'm here, to let you know….

RPGC: OH! Well, let us know when you find an actual bit like a manuscript, we like manuscripts, just like skeletons. They don't have to lead anywhere, in fact it's more FUN if they don't, as then we don't have to conclude anything at all!

Gronan:  I keep telling you, most people are booger-eating morons.

[Deleted]

Jul 26, 2017 16:40:07 GMT -5 cadriel said:

You talk about it like Dave was Hephaestus in the forge of creation when by his own account he was a 23 year old who had an idea for a game while he was "reading CONAN novels and watching old monster movies while munching on popcorn". I just find that contrast ... well, it's something. Must've been some good popcorn.

Balderdash.

Artists who start new schools, whether literature, sculpture, paint, et al, very rarely sit down and say "I am going to establish a new school".  Mostly, they try something different, other people like it and start to attempt similar things, and sometime later a "school" is described, usually NOT by the originator.

This is the same thing.

[Deleted]

Jul 23, 2017 21:43:07 GMT -5 Admin Pete said:

I do not comprehend how people can look at the "Forward...." in Men & Magic and not understand that Gygax right there says as plain as day that Arneson created this game and when word came to me (Gygax) the game was brought to market. Plain as day, Arneson created it and Gygax got it into written form to publish. Yet people ignore the testimony of the document itself. When I first read it back in 1975 I was completely clear on who created the game called Dungeons & Dragons and his name was Dave Arneson. No doubt in my mind then, and no doubt in my mind nearly 42 years later.

The vast majority of RPG players have never read OD&D, or even AD&D.  To them, 3rd edition is "Old School".  A good friend runs a game shop in St. Paul.  Most D&D players have never heard of GARY GYGAX, never mind Dave Arneson.

Volume matters; to the RPG world, "WOTC D&D" is the only D&D that ever was.

[Deleted]

Jul 26, 2017 11:31:19 GMT -5 cadriel said:

Jul 25, 2017 15:01:06 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

Yes.  It's (his) history has been minimized, even by Gary himself.  His quotes are endless upon the subject.  As far as the MMSA they have been mostly tight-lipped except for an occasional snippet here or there, but no concrete or lasting record/work forthcoming,  Even Secrets of Blackmoor, whom I am in intimate contact with, admits to this.  It took them almost three years to gain the trust of many of its members to the point that they'd open up to them for the documentary.  The accounts and inferences that D&D us descended from Chainmail are rife:  just go to Wiki "Chainmail" and read it, for one.  There are too any others including the WotC timeline and even PATW that frames it that way as, once again, an inference.  It is not Jon who is doing the most research on Blackmoor, btw, but Secrets of Blackmoor and Dan Boggs.  Jon glossed quite a bit on it in PATW.  Dave Arneson created the RPG concept, so "interesting guy" is in fact an understatement.

I never met Dave, and can't say much at all about him as an individual; that's why I'd like for someone to write a biography.

I do find his own account of the genesis of RPGs fascinating:

jovianclouds.com/blackmoor/Archive_OLD/rpg2.html

The Wikipedia entry for Chainmail says "Dungeons & Dragons began as a Chainmail variant." Dave Arneson wrote "So we began wit CHANMAIL'S simple combat matrix and the handful of monsters and spells that it contained." History of course is more nuanced - Dave says that he was changing things "Almost immediately, like during the first game" - and it's clear that Chainmail was transcended and a new game had been created, before the end of the first session. But it would be false to say that Blackmoor didn't start with Chainmail when Dave said in his own words that it did. It's an article about Chainmail, not about D&D.

Dave said that Braunstein (specifically the "Annaban Republic" game) was "Not quite role playing but real close" and that RPGs came about when he created a synthesis of Chainmail's skirmish rules and Braunstein's goal concept, and quickly went to new territory that neither game had explored. He doesn't use the word "synthesis" but we can't describe the origins of Blackmoor without talking about Chainmail and Braunstein.

The "official" potted history is a drastic oversimplification - it always is. The role of Chainmail was small, and most of the system was developed by Arneson from whole cloth. He published The First Fantasy Campaign. No one with any history seriously disputes that Blackmoor was the first RPG. Playing at the World acknowledges this. Designers & Dragons acknowledges this. PatW should probably be rewritten entirely, because of the wealth of material that was not available to Jon at the time; but it puts Dave in his place as the referee of the first RPG.

Honestly, Rob: if you want Dave to be recognized more, you should publish a memoir of gaming in the '70s. If you write it like you did in the section of Dave Arneson's True Genius where you describe the TSR board meeting, it would make very compelling reading, and your story would help balance all the Gygax biographies.

A potted corporate history on a website will ALWAYS be a drastic oversimplification.  The biggest reason is, people don't read.  And it's an ad, not a history.

And part of the problem is the phrase "a CHAINMAIL variant."  What the hell does that even MEAN?  Swenny and Dave himself both referred to starting with bits of CHAINMAIL, so CHAINMAIL was part of the mix, no doubt.  But only PART.

[mormonyoyoman]

Jul 28, 2017 13:12:02 GMT -5 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Gronan:  I keep telling you, most people are booger-eating morons.

And even then, they are several rungs up the food chain than your average member of Congress. (paraphrasing Mark Twain, but not much)