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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Jun 14, 2017 13:54:21 GMT -5
It is a brutal campaign; we do not pull punches or fudge rolls. I know many people have a problem with the death toll and their players would rebel if they died that often. We were in our mid-30's when we started playing Chainmail fantasy and late 30's when we started playing OD&D. Character death is not a failure, it is a learning experience. What many people call Meta gaming is just smart play.
Here is what OD&D says in the Introduction in Men & Magic:
…and keep the rules nearby as you play. A quick check of some rule or table may, bring hidden treasure or save your game "life.”
OD&D assumed that you as a player knew everything there was to know about the rules and the game world that was available to know, hence the by design house ruling nature of the game to keep it fresh.
A little bit of quick advice for new players:
1. Do not depend on the dice to get you out of a jam, because they will let you down; instead learn to anticipate and avoid being in a jam.
2. Be familiar with what your character can do, especially Magic-Users and Clerics, know your spells and the details of what they do and learn what ones are the best to take for any given situation.
3. Always know what equipment you have with you and what magic you may have and what it does. Do not die because you forgot you had something with you that could have saved your life. Learn to bring the things you will need. Know the limitations of magic and magic items.
4. Learn about the intelligence of the monsters you face and their strengths and weaknesses. Also be aware that monsters in widely separated places may not be identical in these things and that differences in appearances from the ones you are used to are likely different in other ways too.
5. Learn to minimize personal risk for yourself and for the group. Always remember that you are a team and have each other’s back.
6. Remember that you will develop a reputation in game, you are not anonymous, and if you never show any mercy or forbearance to anyone, you will never receive it from anyone.
7. Death happens, TPKs happen, dying is part of living, get over it. No moping around, roll a new character so the ref can work you back into the game.
8. Always remember that the bad guys do not fight fair and you shouldn't either. Only Paladins and the very best of the Clerics fight fair, everyone and everything else usually uses any trick or advantage they can.
9. Create allies and do not create enemies when you do not have too.
10. Remember you are out to explore and garner treasure. Combat will come to you more often than you want, so do not seek out combat when you can avoid it. Staying alive will be tough enough as it is.
11. To maximize fun, and maintain harmony in your group, do not stab your fellow players in the back; they will make you regret it.
12. Remember it is not about how many monsters you kill; it is about coming back alive. Hopefully you are coming back alive with new knowledge and treasure, but above all make it back alive.
13. When the ref says, “Are you sure that’s what you want to do?” be sure and pay attention, it will save your life.
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Post by Mighty Darci on Jun 14, 2017 22:29:07 GMT -5
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Post by scottanderson on Jun 19, 2017 15:20:38 GMT -5
1. Always ask, "how do we get the loot without putting ourselves in much danger?" Loot is how you level; combat is how you die.
2. Always have a larger plan. You might be able to afford to build a castle at level 8 but who's going to actually build it? Who will man it? What peasants will support it? A random castle in the wilderness is worse than useless. It's a huge mausoleum.
3. Build up the towns you visit through industry and military power. Make them remember you by leaving a mark on their town.
Industry: build a work house. Like maybe there's clay nearby. You can hire a master potter from the nearby city to show the hapless sods how to throw clay pots, and then build a pottery factory. Or maybe invest in some looms and start a rag maker's shop. Something to improve the lot of the least among the townsfolk.
Military: spend some time with the men showing them how to fight. Introduce them to your gods. Offer to take them out adventuring nearby. And when you leave, give them a way to call out to you if they ever need your help. This will build you an army and make sure the town is safe when you return.
Family: if you are a boy character, take up with a maiden and have a baby. That will tie you and the town together in a way no mere physical connection can. Given enough down time, a lady character could make a baby and leave it with the dad in the same way.
If you plan to stay a while, finance a palisade around the town or at least a bailey. That way you will have a defendable position and the beginning of a fort or castle in the future.
All of these tasks can be completed in several different towns in order to establish a real territory.
4. Clear areas systematically. You will be able to build new frontier out of wilderness piece by piece.
5. Spend treasure to buy legitimacy. Titles and political favors are as valuable as military might.
6. Have stuff your guy wants, and tell the Ref he wants it. Then a good Ref will give you opportunities to find or earn those things. It makes things go easier for him to get input.
7. One of the very important things that all of this requires is adequate down time between adventures! Down time requires a calendar and regular time keeping. So if you want to have a real campaign, offer to take care of time, seasons, and weather for the Ref so he doesn't have to.
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Post by raikenclw on Jun 20, 2017 21:14:05 GMT -5
I think you have misnumbered your points, in regards to the order in which they should be done in game. Specifically, the following two things should be done first: 5. 1. Spend treasure to buy legitimacy. Titles and political favors are as valuable as military might. 4. 2. Clear areas systematically. You will be able to build new frontier out of wilderness piece by piece. Detailed explanations for why I think this is prudent: You might be able to afford to build a castle at level 8 but who's going to actually build it? Who will man it? What peasants will support it? A random castle in the wilderness is worse than useless. It's a huge mausoleum. However, the disadvantage of building a castle in an already settled area is that some Local Big Shot (or more likely several of them) will object to your plan. So you had best first get on the good side of the most powerful LBS around. Industry: build a work house. Like maybe there's clay nearby. You can hire a master potter from the nearby city to show the hapless sods how to throw clay pots, and then build a pottery factory. Or maybe invest in some looms and start a rag maker's shop. Something to improve the lot of the least among the townsfolk. Before you start improving the lot of the local common man, make sure that you clear your project with any Powers That Be who might be upset by it. In the above example, the Potter's Guild of that "nearby city" won't appreciate the competition represented by your new enterprise, so unless you lay out enough to secure a new master's license (e.g. LOTS of bribe money plus a hefty tax due the original chapter), you are highly unlikely to find that skilled potter you need. [He won't be a master, such a person being highly unlikely to leave a comfortable sinecure for an adventure with a bunch of strange killers.] If you do find a willing journeyman potter [unlikely but possible, particularly if he was ejected from his previous job for something like theft] and proceed with building your factory without legal sanction, said Potter's Guild will use every legal (and probably some illegal) means to destroy it. Military: spend some time with the men showing them how to fight. Introduce them to your gods. Offer to take them out adventuring nearby. And when you leave, give them a way to call out to you if they ever need your help. This will build you an army and make sure the town is safe when you return. Local lords are going to object STRONGLY to a band of strangers blithely turning cheap labor into an armed militia which could effectively resist their traditional exploitation. Family: if you are a boy character, take up with a maiden and have a baby. That will tie you and the town together in a way no mere physical connection can. Given enough down time, a lady character could make a baby and leave it with the dad in the same way. Depends on the local culture. For example, if they are anything like Japanese or Subcontinent Indians, your half-caste offspring will be the lowest of the low. Plus, there is the small matter of possibly getting lynched for "polluting" a local maiden/youth. If you plan to stay a while, finance a palisade around the town or at least a bailey. That way you will have a defendable position and the beginning of a fort or castle in the future. See my points regarding building a castle and providing peasants with military training. Unless you have somehow become a member of the local power structure AND obtained a formal charter to fortify, doing the above is going to get your party into some serious hot water. 6. Have stuff your guy wants, and tell the Ref he wants it. Then a good Ref will give you opportunities to find or earn those things. It makes things go easier for him to get input. 7. One of the very important things that all of this requires is adequate down time between adventures! Down time requires a calendar and regular time keeping. So if you want to have a real campaign, offer to take care of time, seasons, and weather for the Ref so he doesn't have to. I have only praise for points 6 and 7!  |
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Post by scottanderson on Jun 20, 2017 22:21:05 GMT -5
Thank you for straightening all that out. It's good advice. I had not considered some of it.
EDIT: you know, upon further reflection, I don't think any of those things are bad problems to have. Any time you make waves, you are bound to make enemies. If you are proactive about making waves, you can better predict which enemies you will make and what trouble the may make.
Additionally, being active means creating strong allies too which makes for better odds against those enemies.
I still love your analysis.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jun 21, 2017 7:00:50 GMT -5
Great thread guys, a lot of good advice there. I hope many will add to this thread. I really agree with everyone of these, they are IMO spot on! A little bit of quick advice for new players:
1. Do not depend on the dice to get you out of a jam, because they will let you down; instead learn to anticipate and avoid being in a jam.
2. Be familiar with what your character can do, especially Magic-Users and Clerics, know your spells and the details of what they do and learn what ones are the best to take for any given situation.
3. Always know what equipment you have with you and what magic you may have and what it does. Do not die because you forgot you had something with you that could have saved your life. Learn to bring the things you will need. Know the limitations of magic and magic items.
4. Learn about the intelligence of the monsters you face and their strengths and weaknesses. Also be aware that monsters in widely separated places may not be identical in these things and that differences in appearances from the ones you are used to are likely different in other ways too.
5. Learn to minimize personal risk for yourself and for the group. Always remember that you are a team and have each other’s back.
6. Remember that you will develop a reputation in game, you are not anonymous, and if you never show any mercy or forbearance to anyone, you will never receive it from anyone.
7. Death happens, TPKs happen, dying is part of living, get over it. No moping around, roll a new character so the ref can work you back into the game.
8. Always remember that the bad guys do not fight fair and you shouldn't either. Only Paladins and the very best of the Clerics fight fair, everyone and everything else usually uses any trick or advantage they can.
9. Create allies and do not create enemies when you do not have too.
10. Remember you are out to explore and garner treasure. Combat will come to you more often than you want, so do not seek out combat when you can avoid it. Staying alive will be tough enough as it is.
11. To maximize fun, and maintain harmony in your group, do not stab your fellow players in the back; they will make you regret it.
12. Remember it is not about how many monsters you kill; it is about coming back alive. Hopefully you are coming back alive with new knowledge and treasure, but above all make it back alive.
13. When the ref says, “Are you sure that’s what you want to do?” be sure and pay attention, it will save your life. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Jun 21, 2017 11:01:11 GMT -5
1. Always ask, "how do we get the loot without putting ourselves in much danger?" Loot is how you level; combat is how you die. 2. Always have a larger plan. You might be able to afford to build a castle at level 8 but who's going to actually build it? Who will man it? What peasants will support it? A random castle in the wilderness is worse than useless. It's a huge mausoleum. 3. Build up the towns you visit through industry and military power. Make them remember you by leaving a mark on their town. Industry: build a work house. Like maybe there's clay nearby. You can hire a master potter from the nearby city to show the hapless sods how to throw clay pots, and then build a pottery factory. Or maybe invest in some looms and start a rag maker's shop. Something to improve the lot of the least among the townsfolk. Military: spend some time with the men showing them how to fight. Introduce them to your gods. Offer to take them out adventuring nearby. And when you leave, give them a way to call out to you if they ever need your help. This will build you an army and make sure the town is safe when you return. Family: if you are a boy character, take up with a maiden and have a baby. That will tie you and the town together in a way no mere physical connection can. Given enough down time, a lady character could make a baby and leave it with the dad in the same way. If you plan to stay a while, finance a palisade around the town or at least a bailey. That way you will have a defendable position and the beginning of a fort or castle in the future. All of these tasks can be completed in several different towns in order to establish a real territory. 4. Clear areas systematically. You will be able to build new frontier out of wilderness piece by piece. 5. Spend treasure to buy legitimacy. Titles and political favors are as valuable as military might. 6. Have stuff your guy wants, and tell the Ref he wants it. Then a good Ref will give you opportunities to find or earn those things. It makes things go easier for him to get input. 7. One of the very important things that all of this requires is adequate down time between adventures! Down time requires a calendar and regular time keeping. So if you want to have a real campaign, offer to take care of time, seasons, and weather for the Ref so he doesn't have to. Hey scottanderson, I see you got a shout out over at Beer, Pretzels, and 20-Sided Dice from Cameron DuBeers! Cool!! Have an Exalt! I also see in your comment you mentioned Konsumterra's campaign recaps, do you have a link to those? Also you mentioned good timekeeping resources, can you share a bit more about that? |
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Post by scottanderson on Jun 21, 2017 11:59:56 GMT -5
I don't have a link to any particular blog post but Elfmaids and Octopi elfmaidsandoctopi.blogspot.com/ is a place where you will find wacky content in prodigious amounts almost every day. Konsumterra is clearly playing in the OSR sandbox, but he has staked out a corner of his own and plays with toys nobody else has heard of. On time and season: if you want D&D to have a real campaign feel there is nothing more important than tracking your time of day, time of year, seasons and public holidays. We all "know" this is important but it's so hard to implement that almost nobody does it. The way I solved that problem is like this. First I cribbed a document from Wizardawn that marks off Turns, hours, and days in a very usable way. It makes it easy to track torches, rest periods, spell durations, and so forth. A player can do it so the Ref doesn't have to. Then I cribbed Mystara's calendar - months, holy days, rememberances. Mystara is really good because it has 12 months of 28 days so each moon phase falls in the same week every month and each day always falls on the sameness weekday - one calendar can be recycled forever. Then I found a website now defunct that would generate realistic daily weather for various biomes. I plugged in Northern Europe and let it run for a year, and that's the yearly weather. If I had known the site would go away I would have grabbed 20 years of weather to use in the future. But one year is reasonably similar to another so it works fine. With the three documents you have a believable cosmology that make the world feel real in the macro sense. But you also have interesting choices to make in the micro sense - do you want to make the two day trip to the next town in the freezing cold and risk losing a horse or some toes, or wait until the weather breaks in the next week or two? Will you be able to summit the mountain in this downpour, or do you stretch your rations another day or two? Stuff like that. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Jun 21, 2017 12:50:44 GMT -5
Thanks, scottanderson, I will take a look at that blog and for the time tracking tips. |
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Post by raikenclw on Jun 21, 2017 19:20:18 GMT -5
Thank you for straightening all that out. It's good advice. I had not considered some of it. EDIT: you know, upon further reflection, I don't think any of those things are bad problems to have. Any time you make waves, you are bound to make enemies. If you are proactive about making waves, you can better predict which enemies you will make and what trouble the may make. Additionally, being active means creating strong allies too which makes for better odds against those enemies. I still love your analysis. Thanks! And I agree. Such things are not bad problems to have, at least not storywise. Such reactions by the NPCs will make your setting feel real. However, I would advise that if you have Traditionalist (e.g. "Kill/Loot/Spend/Repeat Is The Essence Of D&D") players, you give them each a handout consisting of your and my points above. That way, when their behavior comes back to bite them in the nether regions, you can just silently hold up said sheet, point at the relevant warning and smile. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Jun 21, 2017 19:35:57 GMT -5
Thank you for straightening all that out. It's good advice. I had not considered some of it. EDIT: you know, upon further reflection, I don't think any of those things are bad problems to have. Any time you make waves, you are bound to make enemies. If you are proactive about making waves, you can better predict which enemies you will make and what trouble the may make. Additionally, being active means creating strong allies too which makes for better odds against those enemies. I still love your analysis. Thanks! And I agree. Such things are not bad problems to have, at least not storywise. Such reactions by the NPCs will make your setting feel real. However, I would advise that if you have Traditionalist (e.g. "Kill/Loot/Spend/Repeat Is The Essence Of D&D") players, you give them each a handout consisting of your and my points above. That way, when their behavior comes back to bite them in the nether regions, you can just silently hold up said sheet, point at the relevant warning and smile. I like all of those things that make the setting real. Those are Post-Traditionalist players, the original traditional game was exploration focused not killing focused. I would remind them of these: |
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Post by raikenclw on Jun 21, 2017 20:21:43 GMT -5
On time and season: if you want D&D to have a real campaign feel there is nothing more important than tracking your time of day, time of year, seasons and public holidays. We all "know" this is important but it's so hard to implement that almost nobody does it. Columbia Games puts out a random weather generation chart as part of their Harnmaster system, written for a Wet Temperate Climate. This chart has a separate column for each of the four seasons, each column having 20 entries. Each entry is along the lines of "Partly Cloudy, Cold, 20% chance of precipitation" and covers a single 4-hour "watch." To use the chart at the gaming table (when the current weather isn't known), you roll a d20 and place a marker on the indicated entry of the current season. At the end of that watch (e.g. whenever you decide that four game hours have elapsed), you roll a d6: 1 = Move Up 2, 2 = Move Up 1, 3-4 = No Change, 5 = Move Down 1, 6 = Down 2. If your marker goes off the end of a column, it re-enters the chart at that column's opposite end (except on the solstices and equinoxes, when it moves over to the opposite end of the new season's column). I found this a very easy-to-use system, although (when the chance offered) I would pre-generate a week or so of weather ahead of time. |
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Post by raikenclw on Jun 21, 2017 20:27:18 GMT -5
Those are Post-Traditionalist players, the original traditional game was exploration focused not killing focused. It is true that the text of the original game talked about exploration being the focus. But since experience points were only gained by defeating monsters and garnering treasure, it is hardly surprising that "Kill them all and loot the bodies!" soon enough became the PC's battlecry.  |
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Post by magremore on Jun 21, 2017 20:59:41 GMT -5
Those are Post-Traditionalist players, the original traditional game was exploration focused not killing focused. It is true that the text of the original game talked about exploration being the focus. But since experience points were only gained by defeating monsters and garnering treasure, it is hardly surprising that "Kill them all and loot the bodies!" soon enough became the PC's battlecry. Not going to argue, as that definitely became a thing. But, I don't know, I just want to add to PD's take—and this coming to the game and playing basically ten to fifteen years after he started—we were mostly motivated, at least I know I was, more by finding cool things (sorry, DM, wherever you are—we did not truly appreciate you!). Not that our characters didn't stir up some $&!# in town, or get all into the combat, but slaughtering for XP never entered the picture. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Jun 21, 2017 22:11:54 GMT -5
Those are Post-Traditionalist players, the original traditional game was exploration focused not killing focused. It is true that the text of the original game talked about exploration being the focus. But since experience points were only gained by defeating monsters and garnering treasure, it is hardly surprising that "Kill them all and loot the bodies!" soon enough became the PC's battlecry. Many of us do not and never did award experience for killing monsters. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Jun 21, 2017 22:13:47 GMT -5
It is true that the text of the original game talked about exploration being the focus. But since experience points were only gained by defeating monsters and garnering treasure, it is hardly surprising that "Kill them all and loot the bodies!" soon enough became the PC's battlecry. Not going to argue, as that definitely became a thing. But, I don't know, I just want to add to PD's take—and this coming to the game and playing basically ten to fifteen years after he started—we were mostly motivated, at least I know I was, more by finding cool things (sorry, DM, wherever you are—we did not truly appreciate you!). Not that our characters didn't stir up some $&!# in town, or get all into the combat, but slaughtering for XP never entered the picture. Yeah, explore, find cool stuff and I do give experience for out smarting the monsters (ie they outsmarted me), but they don't know that. |
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Post by scottanderson on Jun 21, 2017 22:16:32 GMT -5
Yeah sneaking or tricking monsters, or getting them to join you, that gets XPs just like killing them. But XP from monsters is so negligible I don't even consider it when I plan a dungeon.
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Post by scottanderson on Jun 22, 2017 4:49:37 GMT -5
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Post by Admin Pete on Jun 22, 2017 6:16:22 GMT -5
Yeah sneaking or tricking monsters, or getting them to join you, that gets XPs just like killing them. But XP from monsters is so negligible I don't even consider it when I plan a dungeon. I don't either, it is just a bonus they get for good play. |
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Post by scottanderson on Jun 22, 2017 6:26:46 GMT -5
LOL the bonus for good play is to keep your guy alive; YMMV of course
If you just keep it as 1 GP = 1 XP, you barely have to think about XP. And for someone as operationally dumb as I am, I have to keep things as dumb as possible
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Post by Admin Pete on Jun 22, 2017 9:37:31 GMT -5
LOL the bonus for good play is to keep your guy alive; YMMV of course If you just keep it as 1 GP = 1 XP, you barely have to think about XP. And for someone as operationally dumb as I am, I have to keep things as dumb as possible We play once per month and it would take years for this to add up to an extra level. I don't think it does much to keep them alive, the smart play does that. |
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Post by xizallian on Jun 23, 2017 7:13:04 GMT -5
Thank you Crimhthan The Great for starting this thread, great advice!! Thank you to everyone else for building on that in a great way! 
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Post by Robert the Black on Jun 27, 2017 13:54:43 GMT -5
13. When the ref says, “Are you sure that’s what you want to do?” be sure and pay attention, it will save your life. This is great advice for new players and a must remember for older players as well. Ignore it at your peril. |
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Post by Jame Rowe on Jul 5, 2017 6:29:31 GMT -5
Ahh, so you use a BECMI rules? |
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Post by scottanderson on Jul 5, 2017 11:30:12 GMT -5
If I were to run a game I would use Mythical Journeys which is my own version of D&D, along with the OD&D monster list.
This calendar was just for fun. I planned to use it in a Known World campaign. You can scrub the holidays and make your own or use it as an example for your own calendar.
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Post by Traveroark on Jul 5, 2017 13:36:48 GMT -5
1. Do not depend on the dice to get you out of a jam, because they will let you down; instead learn to anticipate and avoid being in a jam.
2. Be familiar with what your character can do, especially Magic-Users and Clerics, know your spells and the details of what they do and learn what ones are the best to take for any given situation.
3. Always know what equipment you have with you and what magic you may have and what it does. Do not die because you forgot you had something with you that could have saved your life. Learn to bring the things you will need. Know the limitations of magic and magic items.
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