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Post by mormonyoyoman on Apr 1, 2017 0:15:13 GMT -5
At another weird discussion board, someone referred us to Meyer-Brigg sites (2) and then a site which would convert our ENFJ personalities to D&D classes. I accidentally referenced this thread to Most Holy & Mighty Darci (Howard be her name.) on THIS the wrong forum.
But it's a good discussion, and my rant about classes and stereotypical behaviors might spark interesting discussions. Or at least outright mockery.
So it went like this:
Oddly (?) he classes me as a paladin. I say "oddly" because I dislike classes per se. Seems unrealistic to me. Don't know anyone who can be pigeonholed into a class, and I think that's why Feats almost overwhelmed the D&D world for a time.
0D&D's classes were, yes, a shorthand descriptor from wargames, but it seemed to me that they really described professions. Not what a person was, but what they did on a regular basis. In a combat-emphasis game, that would be enough - and was, for a time. But I grew to love (or hate) my characters and my fellow gamers' characters for the personalities they developed.
Maybe that's why I gravitated to Tunnels and Trolls, where class DID mean "job," and ran silly D&D tourneys where the fighting man ran when outnumbered, came to a wall, and had to stop because only thieves could climb walls.
Now I am older and less self-conscious, and thoroughly enjoy OSR games, especially Castles and Crusades (sort of OSR) but still mostly enjoy portraying a character who acts against type. A fighting dwarf with an INT of 4 who studies nuclear physics is my current favorite PC.
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Post by robkuntz on Apr 1, 2017 4:31:01 GMT -5
Classes were monikers for forwarding initial and singular play styles and were not thespian guides. Sure. You could act out what you felt would be the class characteristics, even psychological traits that could be expressed, but that is more singularly oriented fantasizing rather than participating in the discovery of Fantasy. Can a game go that direction with agreement and consent. Most assuredly, thus the rise of Vampire and its ilk; just as the game can go to another extreme of actual battle-otiented 3rd edition, etc. The diffeence is that OD&D is at best all of these and none of these at once, depending. The :"these" depend upon choice and not up front prescription.
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Post by Admin Pete on Apr 1, 2017 7:42:41 GMT -5
I am not big on backstory myself, but say a player had something in mind I would readily let them do it in most cases.
The flexibility of OD&D is overlooked a lot of the time because of rigid mindsets. People have often claimed that you can't do this or that with OD&D, but that is really not the case. For example with a DM that can roll with things, you could have a Fighter that was raised in a merchant family and apprenticed to a magic user and yeah she learned a little minor magic (easily lighting small fires, tripping someone with a gesture, maybe a couple of other minor things) but was not really cut-out for it and was dismissed. Dad was incensed and threw you out and you ended up with the riffraff of the town and slowly learned how to move very silently, hide in shadows and climb really well, but you did not make much progress in a number of other things they were trying to teach you, those abilities were only minor. One day you ran afoul of a group of fighters and because of a number of different factors they decided you should go with them or be turned over to the city guard. You chose what you thought was the lesser of two evils and chose to go with them. They decided that you needed to know more than how to use a dagger, so they started teaching you how to fight with a number of different weapons. You took to the sword like a duck to water, but did not like metal armor, too restricting. So over time you became this fighter, that had a few minor magics and became the groups highly skilled scout. You also became very good with a short bow. Your character was unique and had a quirky, yet endearing personality.
Now while none of that is directly in the OD&D rules and it doesn't talk about back story in the rules, any character concept can be accommodated without going overboard into a 20 page story that creates superman. Just a character write up that spans a paragraph, and tells where you came from. The pigeon holing you complain about is something that a lot of people self-inflict on themselves that is not mandated in anyway by the OD&D rules, it is the result of, as Rob says, of rigid linear thinking. Cookie cutter fighters, magic-users, clerics and thieves, etc is not a feature of the rules, it is a feature of the people using those rules without considering the freedom the rules give you from the very beginning where you are clearly told, take this and make it yours. Flavor was for many of us bitd something that you developed during play. Bitd I never saw two people play any class the same way, they were all unique and different. But if someone wants to have a little back story and wants to have something out of the ordinary, I am fine with that and the rules, really the guidelines, do not prohibit any of this, classes and their characteristics in the rules are a starting point, not an end point. My OD&D is not "combat emphasis" even though from what I read on the forums, a lot of people did and do view it that way. Contrary to popular belief, not everyone bitd or today embrace the "murder-hobo" view, back in the day we were anything but. I did not and do not consider that to be fun. Of course I started as a 19 year old with other 18, 19 and 20 year old's in college. Maybe it would have been different if we were 10-12 and all boys, instead of equal numbers of men and women in college.
By the way, where are the links to these other sites, I would love to take a look.
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Apr 3, 2017 1:00:12 GMT -5
Took me a day or so, but here is the main article with the other links in the article /blog post itself tinyurl.com/Tzhett |
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Post by Admin Pete on Apr 3, 2017 6:48:42 GMT -5
Took me a day or so, but here is the main article with the other links in the article /blog post itself tinyurl.com/TzhettCool I will take a look as soon as I have some time to spend. But I don't see the forum link, would you share that also?   |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Apr 3, 2017 7:21:59 GMT -5
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Apr 3, 2017 7:26:45 GMT -5
Rats. Was gonna write an insightful and witty post to Mr Rob and Mr Admin about how I had been brainwashed (it really only took a light rinse) to believe D&D had become rules-rigid, but I just posted a link for Mr Admin and I don’t want to post two posts in a row.
Oops.
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Post by Mighty Darci on Apr 3, 2017 7:39:32 GMT -5
Took me a day or so, but here is the main article with the other links in the article /blog post itself tinyurl.com/TzhettThank you Tzhett! |
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Post by Mighty Darci on Apr 3, 2017 7:44:33 GMT -5
Tzhett, you might want to lay off the funny mushrooms and the toad/frog licking if you "hates" the halucinations. Or are you having them without assistance?  |
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Post by Mighty Darci on Apr 3, 2017 7:59:28 GMT -5
Rats. Was gonna write an insightful and witty post to Mr Rob and Mr Admin about how I had been brainwashed (it really only took a light rinse) to believe D&D had become rules-rigid, but I just posted a link for Mr Admin and I don’t want to post two posts in a row. Oops. You have rats at your house?  Maybe the heavy duty wash cycle would help with that! D&D rules-rigid? You must be thinking of some non-OD&D/Holmes game. Also let me know when you write an insightful and witty post, I would like to know what that looks like. |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Apr 3, 2017 11:30:12 GMT -5
Tzhett, you might want to lay off the funny mushrooms and the toad/frog licking if you "hates" the halucinations. Or are you having them without assistance? All seriousness aside, the hallucinations (mostly depth perception anomalies) are one of the effects of a neurological disability. Can't drive, since the roads seem to breathe. Frog Licking!?! Yecch. The last time I tried that, it turned into a gay prince. |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Apr 3, 2017 11:49:34 GMT -5
Rats. Was gonna write an insightful and witty post to Mr Rob and Mr Admin about how I had been brainwashed (it really only took a light rinse) to believe D&D had become rules-rigid, but I just posted a link for Mr Admin and I don’t want to post two posts in a row. Oops. You have rats at your house? Maybe the heavy duty wash cycle would help with that! D&D rules-rigid? You must be thinking of some non-OD&D/Holmes game. Also let me know when you write an insightful and witty post, I would like to know what that looks like. Me too. This was after a year or so of our little family enjoying D&D with no B or E, nor A or X, nor even O. Then two things crept into gaming groups, and though they opposed each other - they fed each other. (You may begin to see a similarity to two political parties.) One was called Inflation Creep where the world's best barbarians, wizards, thieves, and Roto-Rooter men all had all stats at 18/00 - for starters. I sat in on, and walked out from, a D&D game where new players rolled percentiles to determine their starting levels. The other was Rules-bound Games. From outside the games companies (which we imagined as wealth-packed ivory towers because we were young and stupid) it looked like a response to Inflation Creep which rapidly went amuck. Flare wars through snail mail, feuds, and other nonsense hurt gamers and games culture alike and we stubbornly refused to understand fellow gamers who were Gaming the Wrong Way. It's no wonder that the OSR happened and focused on the strongest point of the original rolegame(s): Rulings Not Rules. At that point, I came back. |
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Post by Mighty Darci on Apr 3, 2017 19:06:56 GMT -5
Tzhett, you might want to lay off the funny mushrooms and the toad/frog licking if you "hates" the halucinations. Or are you having them without assistance? All seriousness aside, the hallucinations (mostly depth perception anomalies) are one of the effects of a neurological disability. Can't drive, since the roads seem to breathe. Frog Licking!?! Yecch. The last time I tried that, it turned into a gay prince.  I am so sorry! I forgot about the neurological disability! I will kid about almost anything, but not deliberately about a disability. I am sad that I did not remember, that was very rude! Please forgive me. |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Apr 3, 2017 21:36:50 GMT -5
All seriousness aside, the hallucinations (mostly depth perception anomalies) are one of the effects of a neurological disability. Can't drive, since the roads seem to breathe. Frog Licking!?! Yecch. The last time I tried that, it turned into a gay prince. I am so sorry! I forgot about the neurological disability! I will kid about almost anything, but not deliberately about a disability. I am sad that I did not remember, that was very rude! Please forgive me. Shazbot, there is nothing to forgive and you shouldn't feel the least bit of remorse. I use MM for humor (It's a really funny disease!) and you should too. This time, we did have to pause a minute to explain my mysterious and weird behavior. No intent to make you uncomfortsbubble, just a need to explain what I think I was trying to say. Or as my brain was saying to me, "Does a joke have humor without context?" So I provided context - Tzhett said, sounding far too much like Dr Sheldon Cooper. |
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Post by Mighty Darci on Apr 4, 2017 9:05:59 GMT -5
Tzhett, you are nothing like Dr Sheldon Cooper, he is a bit slow compared to you! Not to mention he is completely lacking in empathy, oh wait, I did mention it! Tzhettism must be catching. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Apr 4, 2017 9:25:00 GMT -5
I accidentally referenced this thread to Most Holy & Mighty Darci (Howard be her name.) on THIS the wrong forum. (Long sigh!) you just had to go there didn't you, Chet. You know how that sounds. (Admin shrugs shoulders, moves along shaking my head.) |
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Post by ripx187 on Apr 4, 2017 9:58:53 GMT -5
mormonyoyoman Thank you for starting this thread. I was really dreading a project that I was working on and this seriously helped me get over that hump; I was drawing a blank on where to go with it. I hate reviewing products that I despise; one doesn't want to get too negative because no matter how dumb and pointless that one person thinks that a gaming book is, there is another out there that can't play without it. I still hate the book, and I probably missed the point of what you were saying completely, but it did help me figure out what exactly it was that turned me off.
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Post by bestialwarlust on Apr 4, 2017 11:14:27 GMT -5
I am not big on backstory myself, but say a player had something in mind I would readily let them do it in most cases. Now while none of that is directly in the OD&D rules and it doesn't talk about back story in the rules, any character concept can be accommodated without going overboard into a 20 page story that creates superman. Just a character write up that spans a paragraph, I have a player that always has to come up with a backstory.... But my take on backstory to make your character original is simple. At most just one sentence to make your "generic" character unique is really all that's needed in my opinion. I always like to use the fighter as an example because everyone claims all D&D fighters are the same. "Fighters suck they're all the same. I want to play the grey mouser I can't do that! I need point buy character building" the player whines. "ok so your fighter can make a small palm of flame or minor ghost sound. Maybe even some small damaging effect that can cause 1-2 pts of damage. Something minor. Just use your imagination if you don't get abusive with it I'll probably let if fly"..... I reply......Player sits there with a stunned look. Later in game play during an adventure Player--- "Ha! I want my grey mouse type character to sneak up on that guard and take him out. But your OD&D has no rules that means I can't do it!" Me -- "Nope you can do that" checks how the character is equipped rolls dice. "ok you're wearing light armor and not much in the way of encumbrance. You're behind the guard and he didn't notice you. what do you do?" Now my group isn't this bad. But they were groomed on 1st AD&D as was I so most of them prefer to see their "options" laid out in front of them. So while we do some od&d and I prefer it I do concede and run other games such as C&C or ACKS. |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Apr 4, 2017 13:27:37 GMT -5
I accidentally referenced this thread to Most Holy & Mighty Darci (Howard be her name.) on THIS the wrong forum. (Long sigh!) you just had to go there didn't you, Chet. You know how that sounds. (Admin shrugs shoulders, moves along shaking my head.) Sounds like a quote from "Art Linkletter's House Party," his Kids Say the Darndest Things. It was one little boy's rendition of the Lord's Prayer which cracked the audience up. |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Apr 4, 2017 13:29:14 GMT -5
Tzhett, you are nothing like Dr Sheldon Cooper, he is a bit slow compared to you! Not to mention he is completely lacking in empathy, oh wait, I did mention it! Tzhettism must be catching. A co-worker labeled the disease of Tzhettism as Chetoric. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Apr 4, 2017 16:00:24 GMT -5
I am not big on backstory myself, but say a player had something in mind I would readily let them do it in most cases. Now while none of that is directly in the OD&D rules and it doesn't talk about back story in the rules, any character concept can be accommodated without going overboard into a 20 page story that creates superman. Just a character write up that spans a paragraph, I have a player that always has to come up with a backstory.... But my take on backstory to make your character original is simple. At most just one sentence to make your "generic" character unique is really all that's needed in my opinion. I always like to use the fighter as an example because everyone claims all D&D fighters are the same. "Fighters suck they're all the same. I want to play the grey mouser I can't do that! I need point buy character building" the player whines. "ok so your fighter can make a small palm of flame or minor ghost sound. Maybe even some small damaging effect that can cause 1-2 pts of damage. Something minor. Just use your imagination if you don't get abusive with it I'll probably let if fly"..... I reply......Player sits there with a stunned look. Later in game play during an adventure Player--- "Ha! I want my grey mouse type character to sneak up on that guard and take him out. But your OD&D has no rules that means I can't do it!" Me -- "Nope you can do that" checks how the character is equipped rolls dice. "ok you're wearing light armor and not much in the way of encumbrance. You're behind the guard and he didn't notice you. what do you do?" Now my group isn't this bad. But they were groomed on 1st AD&D as was I so most of them prefer to see their "options" laid out in front of them. So while we do some od&d and I prefer it I do concede and run other games such as C&C or ACKS. I agree with you and one sentence is better than many sentences. I am good if they want to make it three lines, as long as it is reasonable. |
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Post by ripx187 on Apr 4, 2017 19:24:34 GMT -5
Welp, for better or worse, here is the link. Advanced Gaming & Theory: The Complete Bards Handbook, or what is Class?I like an asymmetric and class-based game, one where character development happens and is organic. At some point, this direction changed for the majority of users. The system became more skill-based and characters were replaced by class-in-a-can prototypes, removing much of the creativity which I have always enjoyed the most. It, I believe, started with the Paladin, Ranger, Illusionist, but especially the Bard, which is broken. Perhaps it started earlier than that when Elves were no longer a class, but a race? Yeah, I probably missed your point entirely, but it was the angle that I needed to get this very unpleasant chore done, so thanks again |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Apr 5, 2017 1:28:10 GMT -5
Ripx187 (What happened to the first 186?) I saved this to read while waiting-for-a-living (I go to the VA horshpital in a few hours) so I'm really looking forward to reading and commenting. Just give me a couple days, OK? I can't wait to see you tear into the Complete Class books. My grandson told me at least one was good, but they seemed redundant to me at the time. Maybe I could enjoy them now; I get itchy every time I think of not trying to break my own assumptions.
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Post by Admin Pete on Apr 5, 2017 7:03:07 GMT -5
Tzhett, you are nothing like Dr Sheldon Cooper, he is a bit slow compared to you! Not to mention he is completely lacking in empathy, oh wait, I did mention it! Tzhettism must be catching. A co-worker labeled the disease of Tzhettism as Chetoric. I will have to introduce that into my campaign in honor of you! |
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Post by Admin Pete on Apr 5, 2017 7:03:41 GMT -5
Ripx187 (What happened to the first 186?) I saved this to read while waiting-for-a-living (I go to the VA horshpital in a few hours) so I'm really looking forward to reading and commenting. Just give me a couple days, OK? I can't wait to see you tear into the Complete Class books. My grandson told me at least one was good, but they seemed redundant to me at the time. Maybe I could enjoy them now; I get itchy every time I think of not trying to break my own assumptions. A Veteran, thank you for your service!  |
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Post by Admin Pete on Apr 5, 2017 7:17:13 GMT -5
Welp, for better or worse, here is the link. Advanced Gaming & Theory: The Complete Bards Handbook, or what is Class?I like an asymmetric and class-based game, one where character development happens and is organic. At some point, this direction changed for the majority of users. The system became more skill-based and characters were replaced by class-in-a-can prototypes, removing much of the creativity which I have always enjoyed the most. It, I believe, started with the Paladin, Ranger, Illusionist, but especially the Bard, which is broken. Perhaps it started earlier than that when Elves were no longer a class, but a race? Yeah, I probably missed your point entirely, but it was the angle that I needed to get this very unpleasant chore done, so thanks again I enjoyed the read and I am not a fan of Bards, Druids or Illusionist. I have revised Paladins IMC to something you become at 4th level if you are chosen. I have only gotten to play test a little, so I am still going to modify it when I know more. For your perusal, this the first write up and their have been changes since then. Paladins of the Mace and of the Sword |
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Post by ripx187 on Apr 5, 2017 10:16:28 GMT -5
Nice! A great read too. I would never had found this if you hadn't shared it; I'm glad you did!
As far as unwelcome, over-powered, or overly invasive sub-classes go, Paladins aren't so bad, they are powerful, but they are also hard to play. Once somebody says that they are going to play one, all of the other players just sigh and hope that heroic suicide will come sooner than later. As far as integration goes, while it might not be a good fit for a group of players, it is a good fit for a fantasy setting.
There is one thing that I see in your write-up that I find odd; you say that once a Paladin loses his class because of a misdeed, he will never be a paladin again. Why? I really love the idea of the struggle to reattain a god's favor after being tricked or failing to resist temptation, I'm not sure how well that this transfers over to a game, though typically if a Paladin is involved with a party, he is (or at least assumes that he is) the leader. Naturally, there should be a limit on this, perhaps only once; and the deed must be a very heroic and worthy one. I kind of like the idea that if he does reattain paladin status he loses all levels that he had obtained as a fighter, and goes back to where he left off as a paladin.
I'm a jerk when it comes to DMing. I love trying to trick the party into taking the easy way out; or tempting them with gilded lies. I like the lines of good and evil to be very clear, Evil is easy but it consumes, Good is difficult but it nourishes. What the players see, hear, and feel may not seem to fit this model, but it is always there. The paladin is the living embodiment of this philosophy, but he is still human and it is sometimes very difficult to tell which is which.
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Apr 5, 2017 11:46:03 GMT -5
Ripx187 (What happened to the first 186?) I saved this to read while waiting-for-a-living (I go to the VA horshpital in a few hours) so I'm really looking forward to reading and commenting. Just give me a couple days, OK? I can't wait to see you tear into the Complete Class books. My grandson told me at least one was good, but they seemed redundant to me at the time. Maybe I could enjoy them now; I get itchy every time I think of not trying to break my own assumptions. A Veteran, thank you for your service! And thank you, sir, for YOUR service and sacrifice. |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Apr 5, 2017 11:57:30 GMT -5
I am enjoying the specific discussion of paladins and the recognition that running or GMing said characters is going to be subjective, as well as the GM being the campaign's actual and virtual (simultaneously at the same time!) deity of determinated reality. This and the linked article, provides further thoughts into a supplement for QADD that I keep revising every time I look at it.
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Post by Admin Pete on Apr 5, 2017 17:37:21 GMT -5
A Veteran, thank you for your service! And thank you, sir, for YOUR service and sacrifice. Thank you but I'm not a veteran, although my family does have quite a few . My one grandfather was born in 1892 and served in WWI. My dad tried to enlist in WWII but was classified 4F (high blood pressure) that was when first found out he had it. Three uncles served during the Korean War and my youngest uncle served in Vietnam. That war ended before I graduated High School, so my parents decided it was ok to go to college. I have a nephew and a cousin serving right now. |
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Maybe the heavy duty wash cycle would help with that! 
I am so sorry! I forgot about the neurological disability! I will kid about almost anything, but not deliberately about a disability. I am sad that I did not remember, that was very rude! Please forgive me.
