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Post by ripx187 on Mar 30, 2017 17:23:39 GMT -5
On my Blog I'm talking about Logic vs Creativity. Identifying problems in the game can be difficult, but this also is directly linked to style. I think that I know where most of the OD&D users sit; the less we work with, the more that these extremes become apparent, and the more you have to make these guys (logic and creativity) work together. Where do you think that you sit on this spectrum? Is this just something that you think happens naturally or do you have to actively think about it? Do you think that this even matters to the game? |
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Post by makofan on Mar 30, 2017 18:18:15 GMT -5
Prep the basics, improv the rest. Take your cue from the players
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Post by ripx187 on Mar 30, 2017 19:18:08 GMT -5
Prep the basics, improv the rest. Take your cue from the players What are the basics? Most of the basics I can keep in my head, I don't need to write them down. I need specifics in my prep. Organizing continuity and being able to replicate an NPC at a glance, or answering a question consistently. We as DM's are brokers of information, and we're tightwads about it (at least I am). The basics, I feel, are more advanced than we give them credit for. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Mar 30, 2017 21:12:41 GMT -5
I read your article on the blog and I have zero empathy for the "cold calculator" you describe and identify with the "entertainer" as you call him. I am solidly on the Improv side of things and I am at my best when reffing on the fly. My "prep" for the most part consists of writing down things I created on the fly and expanding on them or adding other things around them. For me prep is distant second to improv and I do very little of it. The least creative stuff I do is when I sit down and try to think it up in advance. I do very basic top down stuff and then I go all bottom up from that point on.
The dangers of the creative ref, that you talk about, I don't see. Bitd an 8th level character would have 3-5 magic items and that was it. I was looking at play by post game the other day and saw a character that had 26 magic items. I am a bit more generous now, but not overly so. A lot of my items have to make a saving throw to survive certain attacks, so they tend to lose items from time to time. In my campaign you can run across an artifact, and IMC artifacts have a propensity of leaving on their own after a random amount of time. I don't undermine challenges, I create them. My players for instance have had several near death encounters with young inexperienced beholders and live in fear of meeting an older battle savvy one. And they know that meeting will happen "sometime". I don't freak out, I love to see my players fully engage with one another, that is part of the fun for the ref, to see the players really buy in all the way.
I can't go off script, there is no script, none, nada, zilch! Balance is something that I give no thought to at all. Balance has never been observed by me to be part of life, so why would it be part of imaginary life?
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Post by robkuntz on Mar 31, 2017 3:18:01 GMT -5
Prep the basics, improv the rest. Take your cue from the players What are the basics? Most of the basics I can keep in my head, I don't need to write them down. I need specifics in my prep. Organizing continuity and being able to replicate an NPC at a glance, or answering a question consistently. We as DM's are brokers of information, and we're tightwads about it (at least I am). The basics, I feel, are more advanced than we give them credit for. Each DM has his or her own "Basics". There is no across the board how to? for individuals, That is why we are... Individuals. As a point of criticism, your posts smack, overall, of linearized thinking whereas D&D for the majority of us here is composed of marked degrees and kinds--relative to each as I've noted--of granular processes that we have made our own. For myself, and I feel this holds true for others, if we wanted linear, prescribed, set-in-stone processes we'd play 3rd edition, which is an invariant system. YMMV. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Mar 31, 2017 7:13:48 GMT -5
Prep the basics, improv the rest. Take your cue from the players What are the basics? Most of the basics I can keep in my head, I don't need to write them down. I need specifics in my prep. Organizing continuity and being able to replicate an NPC at a glance, or answering a question consistently. We as DM's are brokers of information, and we're tightwads about it (at least I am). The basics, I feel, are more advanced than we give them credit for. My basics are these, give me some dice and some players and I will create a new campaign on the fly right now, no prep time needed! I am ready to go. In the 10 minutes it takes for the players to roll up new characters I will be ready with information on where they are and 5-10-15 adventure hooks or they can set out exploring. No script, no handrails, no railroad tracks, just unfettered freedom. You would be surprised how quickly open-minded players can take to that. It will be completely different from any previous campaign I have run. If I had seven groups and could play every day, I could run them all in the same world or all in different worlds, all created in an instant. |
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Post by ripx187 on Mar 31, 2017 8:55:42 GMT -5
I think that system does matter in this aspect. When one has less to work with, there are a lot more options, the more specific the rules are the harder it is to create, which I kind of feel was the purpose from a developers standpoint. I have no idea how users of 3+e get anything done.
I hang out one REDDIT a lot; it has got lots of newbies and they are all asking the same questions. I personally feel that it goes back to an imbalance of logic or a dependency upon it. There are some serious issues with this idea, it is far from complete but I think that it can help those who are experiencing problems and aren't able to pinpoint the reason why.
Thanks for the insights!
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Post by Mighty Darci on Mar 31, 2017 12:12:37 GMT -5
I think that system does matter in this aspect. When one has less to work with, there are a lot more options, the more specific the rules are the harder it is to create, which I kind of feel was the purpose from a developers standpoint. I have no idea how users of 3+e get anything done. I hang out one REDDIT a lot; it has got lots of newbies and they are all asking the same questions. I personally feel that it goes back to an imbalance of logic or a dependency upon it. There are some serious issues with this idea, it is far from complete but I think that it can help those who are experiencing problems and aren't able to pinpoint the reason why. Thanks for the insights! Do you have links to any of this? I am not following your argument and I think the concept of balance is overrated. |
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Post by ripx187 on Mar 31, 2017 15:05:14 GMT -5
Hi Mighty Darcy, I'm not arguing anything. There are masters of the craft and there are those who are learning. I think that this stuff should come naturally, "Logic and Creativity" and am just brainstorming, hoping to find a tool that might help those who are ready to begin writing their own material but just lack the confidence to do so. There are lots of masters who are reading this; I wondered what their "basics" were.
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Post by makofan on Mar 31, 2017 16:13:50 GMT -5
For me, the basics are: a map or two I can grab, some set encounters and a treasure or two (i.e. a goal), and the general knowledge of what is going on in the world around the characters right now. The players will start interacting with your basic framework and you'll pick up ideas from them and develop those. The next time you play, you can use the players' ideas in an iterative cycle of a map or two, etc
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Post by robkuntz on Mar 31, 2017 16:50:45 GMT -5
Pencil, paper and an imagination in need of expressing. There are no short cuts, just like in learning at first to swim--you dive in and the experience makes one a master.
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Post by ripx187 on Mar 31, 2017 17:51:20 GMT -5
Yeah, I think that you either enjoy the process or you don't.
One of the most relaxing aspects of the game is the stuff that you do alone; drawing a map and seeing all of these things in your head, even drawing a rough city allows all of these political ideas to pop up in interesting ways, I see all of these little dramas. There is just something about paper that makes it easier. I don't really get those insights while working on a computer, but a pencil . . . that seems to move on its own.
Sometimes I start with notes, sometimes I start with maps. Once I can see it in my head, and make it a real place, then I am ready to game.
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Post by tetramorph on Apr 1, 2017 7:23:18 GMT -5
ripx187, I read your post and liked it very much. It was long, and there was much I could comment on, but I will say this: your distinction between logic and imagination, like right and left brain, really did help me. Like most folks here I default to right Brain. But that has caused me some of the problems you described: forgetting the story is all theirs. Letting go of outcomes is best. Last night I ran a session where a high lvl cl was clearing land for his barony. As I let go of my imagined outcome if I were a player (hard for me to do) I found myself shutting up more ( hard for me to do) and they managed to get themselves into a fine crazy mess all on their own. Much more fun than if they had made the "smart" decisions that my "hints" would have led them to. So, in the end, your advice helped. And I was still creative on the fly whenever I needed to be and that was fun too. So thanks. Admin Pete, reading your response I have to say, I hope I am where you are after I have reffed as long as you have! Very inspiring. I still need a bit more prep than that. But someday! Oh, and by the way, on hedgehobbit's suggestion, I used the old JG approach to combat resolution without initiative and it was crazy, fast, narratival and grounded in role play. I may never say "they attack, roll for initiative!" again!
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Post by ripx187 on Apr 1, 2017 14:43:43 GMT -5
Thank you tetramorph for your kind words. This article has definitely been controversial, which I hadn't really intended it to be. Well . . . maybe I did, but I wasn't really prepared for it. Learning how to shut up was hard for me. One time I found myself engaged in the players Think Tank discussion as if I was playing the game, and had to step back wondering what in the hell I was doing. Just allowing the discussion to play out with only the glory of knowing that the game is working to keep you company is kind of nice, but difficult. DMing can be a very lonely role to play. That is no joke! That was the real reason why I brought this topic to the board, I wanted to hear what the true Craftsmen had to say about it. That and my insatiable thirst for punishment  On a typically long-winded side-note, I am working on altering the formatting of my blog, trying to make it easier to read, per suggestions gleaned from this BBS. It is still a work in progress. I probably put more effort into that than the actual content this week, and unfortunately is shows. Blogging is harder than I ever gave it credit for! I know that I have gotten some great advice from you. I am listening to the feedback that I get from this place. |
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