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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Dec 8, 2022 2:12:04 GMT -5
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Dec 8, 2022 2:16:25 GMT -5
I would add the comment that none of the three guys in the second video are currently playing OD&D. While I have a degree of respect for Joe The Lawyer and Rob Conley, my views on Tenkar are not for public consumption.
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Post by mao on Dec 8, 2022 5:59:56 GMT -5
Sounds like a First World Problem! LOL
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Dec 8, 2022 11:24:15 GMT -5
Sounds like a First World Problem! LOL No, it sounds like an idiot problem to me. There problem stems from 5E and the unrealistic expectations for a DM. Building railroads that cater to every snowflake desire, pre-scripting everything so the PCs always win and writing the novel for the players to follow is a lot of really hard work that no one wants, that is why they have a DM shortage. Along with the fact that these days no one is grounded in the founding fantasy literature of old school D&D, so everyone start with an empty tank for their imagination to run off of. Using modern modules does not make it any better. |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Dec 9, 2022 3:23:33 GMT -5
Sounds like a First World Problem! LOL No, it sounds like an idiot problem to me. There problem stems from 5E and the unrealistic expectations for a DM. Building railroads that cater to every snowflake desire, pre-scripting everything so the PCs always win and writing the novel for the players to follow is a lot of really hard work that no one wants, that is why they have a DM shortage. Along with the fact that these days no one is grounded in the founding fantasy literature of old school D&D, so everyone start with an empty tank for their imagination to run off of. Using modern modules does not make it any better. You are both right. In the case ov mao's reply, it IS a bunch unnecessary drama over a game...for people starving in a 3rd world cesspit this isn't an issue, we have the luxury ov having ample time to dwell upon minutiae and waste time, effort and mental energy moaning about what is ultimately a petty and trivial thing. As to The Perilous Dreamer's comment IN the context ov the videos and article that the culture around 5e D&D has been cultivated to a degree by the unreal expectations live-plays created by professional actors and other charismatic personalities that the average person cannot hope to emulate. It is idiotic, it is a self-perpetuating cycle ov unreasonable expectations married to a game whose IP holder fosters by catering to that mentality. A LOT ov newer players who were inspired to play D&D because ov Critical Role and similar live-plays to get a specific experience like portrayed on CR, also a lot ov these new players want to use 5e to play lifestyle simulators...it isn't designed for it. As such, it is pretty idiotic. Like Mao, I have more pressing problems to deal with the drama...I will run and create content for the systems I prefer and associate with other chill individuals who either do the same or simple want to play in my games. |
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Post by simrion on Dec 9, 2022 5:58:15 GMT -5
HV,
Very cogent observations there in response to both Mao's and PD's comments. To riff off the first worldness I also can't help but think the prevalence of video/computer games emulating rpgs has something to do with this mindset. To me OD&D and other early games were the proto "video games" that leveraged imagination and in-person socialization. And the games had a certain amount of risk in that poor observation and decision making meant your character would perish. Wasn't a big deal at the time as many early adopters were wargamers who recognized "it was a game" and sometimes you lose. The rules were relatively simple so creating a new character and jumping back in took little time or analysis. As the game evolved more and more into an actual roleplay experience players became more and more attached or involved in the personas they were creating. As computer games advanced in complexity and quality egos were fed for players to make their characters into heroes of the story as opposed to creators of the story, and of course, in many cases could save their progress, so failure was a minor setback. I run into the hero egoism with my long term players who want someone to tell them a story despite my best efforts to tell them it's "their" story and develops from their decisions, both good and bad.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Dec 9, 2022 10:50:25 GMT -5
HV, Very cogent observations there in response to both Mao's and PD's comments. To riff off the first worldness I also can't help but think the prevalence of video/computer games emulating rpgs has something to do with this mindset. To me OD&D and other early games were the proto "video games" that leveraged imagination and in-person socialization. And the games had a certain amount of risk in that poor observation and decision making meant your character would perish. Wasn't a big deal at the time as many early adopters were wargamers who recognized "it was a game" and sometimes you lose. The rules were relatively simple so creating a new character and jumping back in took little time or analysis. As the game evolved more and more into an actual roleplay experience players became more and more attached or involved in the personas they were creating. As computer games advanced in complexity and quality egos were fed for players to make their characters into heroes of the story as opposed to creators of the story, and of course, in many cases could save their progress, so failure was a minor setback. I run into the hero egoism with my long term players who want someone to tell them a story despite my best efforts to tell them it's "their" story and develops from their decisions, both good and bad. I just can't identify with the mindset, when I want to play a game, I play a game, when I want to hear a story, I go to a storyteller, and when I want to read a novel, I read a book. Mixing either of the latter with the game, does not appeal to me at all. When you run an open-ended sandbox game, you as the referee get to be surprised as much as the players as a story is created by play. Personally I find trying to follow a script to be incredibly boring. |
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Post by simrion on Dec 9, 2022 19:32:14 GMT -5
HV, Very cogent observations there in response to both Mao's and PD's comments. To riff off the first worldness I also can't help but think the prevalence of video/computer games emulating rpgs has something to do with this mindset. To me OD&D and other early games were the proto "video games" that leveraged imagination and in-person socialization. And the games had a certain amount of risk in that poor observation and decision making meant your character would perish. Wasn't a big deal at the time as many early adopters were wargamers who recognized "it was a game" and sometimes you lose. The rules were relatively simple so creating a new character and jumping back in took little time or analysis. As the game evolved more and more into an actual roleplay experience players became more and more attached or involved in the personas they were creating. As computer games advanced in complexity and quality egos were fed for players to make their characters into heroes of the story as opposed to creators of the story, and of course, in many cases could save their progress, so failure was a minor setback. I run into the hero egoism with my long term players who want someone to tell them a story despite my best efforts to tell them it's "their" story and develops from their decisions, both good and bad. I just can't identify with the mindset, when I want to play a game, I play a game, when I want to hear a story, I go to a storyteller, and when I want to read a novel, I read a book. Mixing either of the latter with the game, does not appeal to me at all. When you run an open-ended sandbox game, you as the referee get to be surprised as much as the players as a story is created by play. Personally I find trying to follow a script to be incredibly boring. Years back I was running a 3.0 game (sorry...) and one of the characters was slain because he though he could take on two Malbranch Devils. The other characters of the group had to parlay with the creature in order to recover the one character's remains. The player was like "I can't be dead I'm the hero!" to which I replied "You may be a 'hero' but you're still dead!" Like many DMs I don't actively seek to kill characters but I'll give them as much rope as they'd like with which to do themselves in BWAHAHAAHAHH |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Dec 9, 2022 22:05:02 GMT -5
I just can't identify with the mindset, when I want to play a game, I play a game, when I want to hear a story, I go to a storyteller, and when I want to read a novel, I read a book. Mixing either of the latter with the game, does not appeal to me at all. When you run an open-ended sandbox game, you as the referee get to be surprised as much as the players as a story is created by play. Personally I find trying to follow a script to be incredibly boring. Years back I was running a 3.0 game (sorry...) and one of the characters was slain because he though he could take on two Malbranch Devils. The other characters of the group had to parlay with the creature in order to recover the one character's remains. The player was like "I can't be dead I'm the hero!" to which I replied "You may be a 'hero' but you're still dead!" Like many DMs I don't actively seek to kill characters but I'll give them as much rope as they'd like with which to do themselves in BWAHAHAAHAHH Yeah, IMO when there is a TPK, it should almost always be due solely to the players knowingly biting off more than they can chew. Especially if they are hearing that classic phrase, "Are you sure that is what you want to do?" |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Dec 10, 2022 9:06:29 GMT -5
I'm sure there IS a 5E DM shortage. On top of the issues already stated - such as all the extra work required compared to OD&D or even B/X or later - the 5E DM also has social and political issues and baggage that comes with some players. I'm not going to wade in knee deep and mire up this forum with any detailed information on those subjects, but you know what I'm talking about. I won't claim that these issues come with all 5E players BUT it seems to come from a sizable portion of the fanbase. When I show up to game, I show up to have fun rather than be lectured on your real-life issues, politics, or activism whether real or imaginary. This makes me think of the Satanic Panic from the 1980's but it's coming from a different side this time.
As far as rule systems go, I can have a good time playing a crunchier system. I had a blast back in the 1980s running AD&D and even Champions but nothing was easier to get up and running back then than the simpler stuff like B/X, Marvel Super Heroes, or Talislanta to name a few. The biggest difference I see between the two mindsets of now and then is that everybody seemed willing to try just about ANY game back then. There should be a variety of games to cover a variety of tastes but many people these days are unwilling to just try out a new game unless it checks so many boxes that the whole thing becomes more of a hassle than anything.
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Post by hengest on Dec 10, 2022 11:33:20 GMT -5
Often it happens that you have an opinion about something and you are so in love with your own opinion that you imagine that everyone who doesn't agree believes something really crazy. Or at least that often happens to me. But here, the "other side" really is acting crazy!
This is completely nuts and out of control. Why would anybody want a hobby that involves unpleasanting imitating the trivial abilities of computers that they already had decades ago, plus the worst kind of social interactions? Calculating useless numbers and bonuses all day, while also treating everyone like some kind of fragile crystal. I wouldn't even want to walk by people playing like this.
Again, not because it is a crime but because it sounds so unpleasant.
Of course few people want to run a game where every human element has been removed.
Wow.
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Post by simrion on Dec 10, 2022 17:55:42 GMT -5
I'm sure there IS a 5E DM shortage. On top of the issues already stated - such as all the extra work required compared to OD&D or even B/X or later - the 5E DM also has social and political issues and baggage that comes with some players. I'm not going to wade in knee deep and mire up this forum with any detailed information on those subjects, but you know what I'm talking about. I won't claim that these issues come with all 5E players BUT it seems to come from a sizable portion of the fanbase. When I show up to game, I show up to have fun rather than be lectured on your real-life issues, politics, or activism whether real or imaginary. This makes me think of the Satanic Panic from the 1980's but it's coming from a different side this time. Yep I've encountered this as well. There are some other forums where this mindset is rampant as well. I play these games to escape reality not recreate the reality in a fantasy world. I've thought about a disclaimer amongst my group regarding potential "triggering" material but then again my group is an adult one and have played together for many years so, despite content of a potentially disturbing nature, they all accept the game for what it is...a game. |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Dec 11, 2022 9:16:08 GMT -5
I'm sure there IS a 5E DM shortage. On top of the issues already stated - such as all the extra work required compared to OD&D or even B/X or later - the 5E DM also has social and political issues and baggage that comes with some players. I'm not going to wade in knee deep and mire up this forum with any detailed information on those subjects, but you know what I'm talking about. I won't claim that these issues come with all 5E players BUT it seems to come from a sizable portion of the fanbase. When I show up to game, I show up to have fun rather than be lectured on your real-life issues, politics, or activism whether real or imaginary. This makes me think of the Satanic Panic from the 1980's but it's coming from a different side this time. Yep I've encountered this as well. There are some other forums where this mindset is rampant as well. I play these games to escape reality not recreate the reality in a fantasy world. I've thought about a disclaimer amongst my group regarding potential "triggering" material but then again my group is an adult one and have played together for many years so, despite content of a potentially disturbing nature, they all accept the game for what it is...a game.That's why I'm thankful for this forum. Not only do we avoid that stuff, but we also realize that it is JUST a game. |
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Post by simrion on Dec 11, 2022 14:27:39 GMT -5
Yep I've encountered this as well. There are some other forums where this mindset is rampant as well. I play these games to escape reality not recreate the reality in a fantasy world. I've thought about a disclaimer amongst my group regarding potential "triggering" material but then again my group is an adult one and have played together for many years so, despite content of a potentially disturbing nature, they all accept the game for what it is...a game.That's why I'm thankful for this forum. Not only do we avoid that stuff, but we also realize that it is JUST a game. Great Minds...Have an Exalt! |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Dec 11, 2022 14:35:43 GMT -5
That's why I'm thankful for this forum. Not only do we avoid that stuff, but we also realize that it is JUST a game. Great Minds...Have an Exalt! YES! Thank you, kind Sir! |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jan 13, 2023 20:27:36 GMT -5
I think for the broader gaming community, this is not going to get better anytime soon. They need to get back to having the Ref/DM in charge of his campaign.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jan 13, 2023 20:52:14 GMT -5
I think for the broader gaming community, this is not going to get better anytime soon. They need to get back to having the Ref/DM in charge of his campaign. Exactly! |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jan 30, 2023 23:23:09 GMT -5
With all the stuff going on recently, one thing that came up is AI DMs. Do you guys think a computer AI could ever pull off a really old school seat of your pants game?
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Post by Morose on Feb 19, 2023 15:08:20 GMT -5
With all the stuff going on recently, one thing that came up is AI DMs. Do you guys think a computer AI could ever pull off a really old school seat of your pants game? I don't think an AI could ever run a game of the sort that I would want to play in. I don't think they could pull off an old school game, let alone a seat of your pants game. |
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Post by Vladimir, The Dark Prince on Mar 14, 2023 22:34:16 GMT -5
I think the reason that the breakdown of DMs is so different between OSR and 5E is that OSR games are fun to run, while 5E is not much fun for the DM, just for the players. |
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Post by Vladimir, The Dark Prince on Mar 14, 2023 22:35:26 GMT -5
With all the stuff going on recently, one thing that came up is AI DMs. Do you guys think a computer AI could ever pull off a really old school seat of your pants game? No, I don't think an AI could ever pull off an old school game. Main reason, the programmer are all woke and don't have clue what an old school game is like. |
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Post by Morose on Mar 14, 2023 23:00:31 GMT -5
I think the reason that the breakdown of DMs is so different between OSR and 5E is that OSR games are fun to run, while 5E is not much fun for the DM, just for the players. I think you are right about this. This is IMO definitely one of the reasons. Those new games can't be that much fun to run. Too many boundaries for a ref to bump up against in the newer games. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Mar 15, 2023 2:44:45 GMT -5
I think the reason that the breakdown of DMs is so different between OSR and 5E is that OSR games are fun to run, while 5E is not much fun for the DM, just for the players. That would be my opinion, even as a player 5E is a lot less fun than OD&D. Part of that is how indecisive and timewasting younger 5E players are. Dither, dither, dither, for crying out loud if you don't like my suggestions then come up with your own, just make a decision already. And those 20-30 minutes lets look up the rules has to go, make a ruling and move on. Look it up between games, not at the table. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Mar 15, 2023 2:45:27 GMT -5
I think the reason that the breakdown of DMs is so different between OSR and 5E is that OSR games are fun to run, while 5E is not much fun for the DM, just for the players. I think you are right about this. This is IMO definitely one of the reasons. Those new games can't be that much fun to run. Too many boundaries for a ref to bump up against in the newer games. Yeah, I have played 5E but I would never try to ref it. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Mar 15, 2023 2:46:12 GMT -5
With all the stuff going on recently, one thing that came up is AI DMs. Do you guys think a computer AI could ever pull off a really old school seat of your pants game? No, I don't think an AI could ever pull off an old school game. Main reason, the programmer are all woke and don't have clue what an old school game is like. I agree, I don't think there are any old school players that are programmers on the cutting edge. |
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Post by Vladimir, The Dark Prince on Mar 15, 2023 12:59:32 GMT -5
No, I don't think an AI could ever pull off an old school game. Main reason, the programmer are all woke and don't have clue what an old school game is like. I agree, I don't think there are any old school players that are programmers on the cutting edge. At least not in the AI field. The AI cannot emulate anything the programmers do not understand. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Mar 15, 2023 23:10:08 GMT -5
I agree, I don't think there are any old school players that are programmers on the cutting edge. At least not in the AI field. The AI cannot emulate anything the programmers do not understand. Yeah, if someone tells me their AI can run an OD&D game, I am just going to laugh at them. |
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Post by hengest on Mar 20, 2023 22:21:50 GMT -5
With all the stuff going on recently, one thing that came up is AI DMs. Do you guys think a computer AI could ever pull off a really old school seat of your pants game? No, I don't think an AI could ever pull off an old school game. Main reason, the programmer are all woke and don't have clue what an old school game is like. The new chatbot cannot even do some of whdt they claim it can do. Color me not impressed. Reffing? Come on. |
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Post by simrion on Mar 21, 2023 4:52:29 GMT -5
My fears of AI running a game (sorry about the ads)
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Mar 21, 2023 13:26:50 GMT -5
My fears of AI running a game (sorry about the ads) I would point out the user error in the prompt that was entered.  But yeah, the dangers are real even if it never becomes sentient. I do not trust the programmers. |
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But yeah, the dangers are real even if it never becomes sentient. I do not trust the programmers.