Sleep - What Needs to Change?

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

From the various posts covering the Sleep spell, you can tell it's somewhat of a hot topic around here.  It seems the overall consensus is that as a 1st level OD&D spell it is overpowered.  Working under the assumption that you were going to keep Sleep as a 1st level spell, what changes would you make to it?

Here's the spell details for anyone interested:
Sleep: A Sleep spell affects from 2–16 1st-level types (hit dice of up to 1 + 1), from 2–12 2nd-level types (hit dice of up to 2 + 1), from 1–6 3rd-level types, and but 1 4th-level type (up to 4 + 1 hit dice). The spell always affects up to the number of creatures determined by the dice. If more than the number rolled could be affected, determine which “sleep” by random selection. Range: 24”.

I'm still considering what I would change...

[simrion]

I dunno, as the game was originally intended (based simply upon my interpretation) it is not overpowered. Low level MUs are fragile. Parties were meant to avoid encounters at all costs as encounters could be deadly, especially if they hit a chute or teleporter that sent them unexpectedly to another level. Parties were meant to make an excursion into the dungeon, grab what they could and retreat to the surface with all haste. A random or unavoidable encounter with a gang of low HD monsters greater than the number of characters was a significantly possibility and Sleep might be the recourse that saves the groups bacon. I don't think the spell is overpowered at all.

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

May 12, 2022 7:08:24 GMT -5 simrion said:

I dunno, as the game was originally intended (based simply upon my interpretation) it is not overpowered. Low level MUs are fragile. Parties were meant to avoid encounters at all costs as encounters could be deadly, especially if they hit a chute or teleporter that sent them unexpectedly to another level. Parties were meant to make an excursion into the dungeon, grab what they could and retreat to the surface with all haste. A random or unavoidable encounter with a gang of low HD monsters greater than the number of characters was a significantly possibility and Sleep might be the recourse that saves the groups bacon. I don't think the spell is overpowered at all.

simrion I dig that your experience with Sleep goes against the grain.  You make several valid points in your post.  They all make sense to me.  My group and I never played OD&D.  We started playing with Holmes, AD&D, and B/X.  I don't recall a big push to make sure the magic-users in our group picked the spell.  Of course, that was back in 1980 when we started playing so who knows if my memory is correct?

[The Perilous Dreamer]

May 12, 2022 7:08:24 GMT -5 simrion said:

I dunno, as the game was originally intended (based simply upon my interpretation) it is not overpowered. Low level MUs are fragile. Parties were meant to avoid encounters at all costs as encounters could be deadly, especially if they hit a chute or teleporter that sent them unexpectedly to another level. Parties were meant to make an excursion into the dungeon, grab what they could and retreat to the surface with all haste. A random or unavoidable encounter with a gang of low HD monsters greater than the number of characters was a significantly possibility and Sleep might be the recourse that saves the groups bacon. I don't think the spell is overpowered at all.

I agree it is not overpowered and I would not change it. I also think I like Mighty Darci's more powerful higher level version of it too.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

May 11, 2022 20:41:41 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

From the various posts covering the Sleep spell, you can tell it's somewhat of a hot topic around here.  It seems the overall consensus is that as a 1st level OD&D spell it is overpowered.  Working under the assumption that you were going to keep Sleep as a 1st level spell, what changes would you make to it?

Here's the spell details for anyone interested:
Sleep: A Sleep spell affects from 2–16 1st-level types (hit dice of up to 1 + 1), from 2–12 2nd-level types (hit dice of up to 2 + 1), from 1–6 3rd-level types, and but 1 4th-level type (up to 4 + 1 hit dice). The spell always affects up to the number of creatures determined by the dice. If more than the number rolled could be affected, determine which “sleep” by random selection. Range: 24”.

I'm still considering what I would change...

I always and still do interpret the commas as AND: 

Sleep: A Sleep spell affects from 2–16 1st-level types (hit dice of up to 1 + 1), AND from 2–12 2nd-level types (hit dice of up to 2 + 1), AND from 1–6 3rd-level types, and AND but 1 4th-level type (up to 4 + 1 hit dice). The spell always affects up to the number of creatures determined by the dice. If more than the number rolled could be affected, determine which “sleep” by random selection. Range: 24”.

So we always rolled individually for each level when the spell was used. Considering the number of TPKs we had, I would never call it overpowered, not even the way I ran it.

Also just for the record, I think commas mean AND and not OR.

[simrion]

May 12, 2022 9:54:40 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

May 12, 2022 7:08:24 GMT -5 simrion said:

I dunno, as the game was originally intended (based simply upon my interpretation) it is not overpowered. Low level MUs are fragile. Parties were meant to avoid encounters at all costs as encounters could be deadly, especially if they hit a chute or teleporter that sent them unexpectedly to another level. Parties were meant to make an excursion into the dungeon, grab what they could and retreat to the surface with all haste. A random or unavoidable encounter with a gang of low HD monsters greater than the number of characters was a significantly possibility and Sleep might be the recourse that saves the groups bacon. I don't think the spell is overpowered at all.

simrion I dig that your experience with Sleep goes against the grain.  You make several valid points in your post.  They all make sense to me.  My group and I never played OD&D.  We started playing with Holmes, AD&D, and B/X.  I don't recall a big push to make sure the magic-users in our group picked the spell.  Of course, that was back in 1980 when we started playing so who knows if my memory is correct?

I actually started my obsession with the game in 1980 with Moldvay Basic. My MUs hardly ever took the spell simply because it wasn't nearly as "sexy" sounding as Magic Missile ;-) As a DM though I hated Sleep I didn't nerf it because of the previously mentioned reasons. Unlike the more recent iterations of the rules, life for characters was brutish, nasty and short. I would never deny the low level MU player a moment of glory by taking away or nerfing Sleep, seeing as their typical option after casting their spell is to whack something with a dagger. YMMV.

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

May 12, 2022 18:18:00 GMT -5 simrion said:

May 12, 2022 9:54:40 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

simrion I dig that your experience with Sleep goes against the grain.  You make several valid points in your post.  They all make sense to me.  My group and I never played OD&D.  We started playing with Holmes, AD&D, and B/X.  I don't recall a big push to make sure the magic-users in our group picked the spell.  Of course, that was back in 1980 when we started playing so who knows if my memory is correct?

I actually started my obsession with the game in 1980 with Moldvay Basic. My MUs hardly ever took the spell simply because it wasn't nearly as "sexy" sounding as Magic Missile ;-) As a DM though I hated Sleep I didn't nerf it because of the previously mentioned reasons. Unlike the more recent iterations of the rules, life for characters was brutish, nasty and short. I would never deny the low level MU player a moment of glory by taking away or nerfing Sleep, seeing as their typical option after casting their spell is to whack something with a dagger. YMMV.

That's it exactly!  It isn't hard to come up with spells that sound way more useful than just "sleep".  I agree with your reasoning 100% percent.  I was just curious if there was something I was missing after several people stated they felt the spell was too low of level.  

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

May 12, 2022 12:06:16 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

May 11, 2022 20:41:41 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

From the various posts covering the Sleep spell, you can tell it's somewhat of a hot topic around here.  It seems the overall consensus is that as a 1st level OD&D spell it is overpowered.  Working under the assumption that you were going to keep Sleep as a 1st level spell, what changes would you make to it?

Here's the spell details for anyone interested:
Sleep: A Sleep spell affects from 2–16 1st-level types (hit dice of up to 1 + 1), from 2–12 2nd-level types (hit dice of up to 2 + 1), from 1–6 3rd-level types, and but 1 4th-level type (up to 4 + 1 hit dice). The spell always affects up to the number of creatures determined by the dice. If more than the number rolled could be affected, determine which “sleep” by random selection. Range: 24”.

I'm still considering what I would change...

I always and still do interpret the commas as AND: 

Sleep: A Sleep spell affects from 2–16 1st-level types (hit dice of up to 1 + 1), AND from 2–12 2nd-level types (hit dice of up to 2 + 1), AND from 1–6 3rd-level types, and AND but 1 4th-level type (up to 4 + 1 hit dice). The spell always affects up to the number of creatures determined by the dice. If more than the number rolled could be affected, determine which “sleep” by random selection. Range: 24”.

So we always rolled individually for each level when the spell was used. Considering the number of TPKs we had, I would never call it overpowered, not even the way I ran it.

Also just for the record, I think commas mean AND and not OR.

The Perilous Dreamer, I think you're correct! 

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

May 12, 2022 12:06:16 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

May 11, 2022 20:41:41 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

Sleep: A Sleep spell affects from 2–16 1st-level types (hit dice of up to 1 + 1), AND from 2–12 2nd-level types (hit dice of up to 2 + 1), AND from 1–6 3rd-level types, and AND but 1 4th-level type (up to 4 + 1 hit dice). The spell always affects up to the number of creatures determined by the dice. If more than the number rolled could be affected, determine which “sleep” by random selection. Range: 24”.

So we always rolled individually for each level when the spell was used. Considering the number of TPKs we had, I would never call it overpowered, not even the way I ran it.

Maybe there wasn't as many people as I thought that believed the spell was overpowered. 

[hengest]

I definitely dig The Perilous Dreamer's interpretation of the spell.

I have no problem with it. Let it do what the description does, let it ride. Monsters have cool spells too, right?

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

May 12, 2022 22:05:21 GMT -5 hengest said:

I definitely dig The Perilous Dreamer 's interpretation of the spell.

I have no problem with it. Let it do what the description does, let it ride. Monsters have cool spells too, right?

I think that's something that people can forget at times.  I've played in games - in my experience, superhero games have been the worst offender - that have every bad guy played without the use of tactics, planning, or using special abilities.  I'm not talking about novice GMs here; that's part of the learning process.  That's as bad as the player that just simply says, "I attack" and rolls a D20 every single turn.  

If you are having issues with the spell being disruptive in your campaign, you could always create new monsters that are immune to sleep or have a heightened resistance to being put to sleep.  Creating new monsters doesn't have to be revolutionary in their design.  Just find an existing monster of the power level you are looking for and change the description, swap out a special ability or two, maybe fudge a number or two and you've got it.  That's just one idea.  Others include the bad guys using sleep as well and an amulet that grants resistance to sleep are two more ideas.  What do you have for ideas?

[The Perilous Dreamer]

May 13, 2022 7:01:28 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

May 12, 2022 22:05:21 GMT -5 hengest said:

I definitely dig The Perilous Dreamer 's interpretation of the spell.

I have no problem with it. Let it do what the description does, let it ride. Monsters have cool spells too, right?

I think that's something that people can forget at times.  I've played in games - in my experience, superhero games have been the worst offender - that have every bad guy played without the use of tactics, planning, or using special abilities.  I'm not talking about novice GMs here; that's part of the learning process.  That's as bad as the player that just simply says, "I attack" and rolls a D20 every single turn.  

If you are having issues with the spell being disruptive in your campaign, you could always create new monsters that are immune to sleep or have a heightened resistance to being put to sleep.  Creating new monsters doesn't have to be revolutionary in their design.  Just find an existing monster of the power level you are looking for and change the description, swap out a special ability or two, maybe fudge a number or two and you've got it.  That's just one idea.  Others include the bad guys using sleep as well and an amulet that grants resistance to sleep are two more ideas.  What do you have for ideas?

I think that the real problem a lot of people have with certain things is that the PCs get to do it, but NPCs do not. A principle of OD&D is this, "If it is sauce for the goose, it is also sauce for the gander."

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

May 13, 2022 21:41:35 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

May 13, 2022 7:01:28 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

I think that's something that people can forget at times.  I've played in games - in my experience, superhero games have been the worst offender - that have every bad guy played without the use of tactics, planning, or using special abilities.  I'm not talking about novice GMs here; that's part of the learning process.  That's as bad as the player that just simply says, "I attack" and rolls a D20 every single turn.  

If you are having issues with the spell being disruptive in your campaign, you could always create new monsters that are immune to sleep or have a heightened resistance to being put to sleep.  Creating new monsters doesn't have to be revolutionary in their design.  Just find an existing monster of the power level you are looking for and change the description, swap out a special ability or two, maybe fudge a number or two and you've got it.  That's just one idea.  Others include the bad guys using sleep as well and an amulet that grants resistance to sleep are two more ideas.  What do you have for ideas?

I think that the real problem a lot of people have with certain things is that the PCs get to do it, but NPCs do not. A principle of OD&D is this, "If it is sauce for the goose, it is also sauce for the gander."

True!

[Snuffy Smith]

Nothing needs to change, the Sleep Spell is great as it is.

[hengest]

So often (not so much around here), you read about takes on spells and things and you realize that the writer just imagines the spells RAW plopped into some otherwise blank world.

Like, okay, Sleep: powerful spell! Well, it is magic and magic does scary stuff. But even if you run the spell RAW, there is literally nothing that prevents you from having monsters that are drawn to sleep magic or whatever.

[Vladimir, The Dark Prince]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the spell at all.

[mao]

I have changed recently due to my error in judgement. I  thiink the principal reasons for my players only . infrequently did they play any wizards. Low Leval play and sleep didn't exist

[hengest]

Again, I have no problem with Sleep AW, but for those who do, just push it up a level and offer Nap as a cantrip.

Nap
This spell targets up to two living creatures. They must hear the sound of the caster's voice. In the absence of obvious threats, the targets will become interested in having a nap. For example, an imprisoned caster on neutral or friendly terms with a guard might cast the spell while chatting, which would encourage the guard to put his head down and fall asleep. 

[mao]

IMNSHO Sleep as written should be 3rd L

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

Jun 15, 2022 10:00:17 GMT -5 hengest said:

Again, I have no problem with Sleep AW, but for those who do, just push it up a level and offer Nap as a cantrip.

Nap
This spell targets up to two living creatures. They must hear the sound of the caster's voice. In the absence of obvious threats, the targets will become interested in having a nap. For example, an imprisoned caster on neutral or friendly terms with a guard might cast the spell while chatting, which would encourage the guard to put his head down and fall asleep. 

Nicely done!  I was actually thinking of breaking it up like you did.  Short and to the point.  I like it - ALOT! Consider it stolen err, uh, I mean borrowed. 

[nobody]

What needs to change? Nothing, not a thing.

[Wrath]

There should be at least two more powerful higher level variants of the sleep spell.