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Post by raikenclw on Mar 17, 2022 22:58:46 GMT -5
Hey All, Just yesterday, I purchased this MASSIVE tome from my Friendly Local Gaming Store (FLGS) - Tolgard Games in Pigeon Forge TN. Does anyone here have experience with this system? I bought it with an eye to starting a new weekly group. You see, I recently started attending a weekly yoga class (free to veterans) that meets about an hour's drive away in Loiusville TN each Wednesday afternoon. This class ends about 4:00pm and there's an FLGS - The Game Piece - located just a few minutes down the road from it. Wednesday's are that FLGS's "short day," meaning they close at 8:00pm (instead of 11:00pm). According to the staff I spoke with, this means that nobody runs any games on that day, since most groups aren't interested in short sessions. But a short session is fine with me . . . particularly given that DCC appears like it will be very easy/quick to run. As to DCC . . . The author advises Judges to try running the game exactly as written at least once, but also states that he expects very few will actually do so. For my part, I have only one quibble. Well, actually two, but only one has to do with running the game: Quibble One: Unlike (perhaps) the typical d20 player, I have no fundamental objection to a completely random character generation process, even one in which most of the PCs thus created DIE during generation. I'm a Classic Traveller fan, after all!  But I would change the "Random Occupation Table" to the extent that various Dwarf, Elf and Halfling results are subtracted out to become their own separate tables. That is, players get to AT LEAST specify their character's race (which is also their class in the case of demihumans). Quibble Two: The author states that his rules don't delve into "fiddly" levels of detail, which is fine. Neither does Classic Traveller. But to illustrate this, at least twice (that I have encountered thus far), the author uses as an example of this that his game does not include Attacks of Opportunity. Yet at the same time, in his Combat Chapter on Page 95 is the Withdrawal rule which states: "Once a character is engaged in melee, he cannot back away without opening himself up to attack. If a character or monster withdraws from an active melee - whether to retreat, move to a new position, or attempt some action - his opponents immediately receive a single free attack." Ehhh? Isn't this the *definition* of an Attack of Opportunity??? This distinction without a difference makes me a bit leery of what other blindspots I might find . . . |
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Post by oldskolgmr on Mar 18, 2022 0:47:54 GMT -5
Hey All, Does anyone here have experience with this system? Yes, I have been playing via Discord in the last three weeks (two games each about four hours, I'm still reading the Rule book).I bought it with an eye to starting a new weekly group. You see, I recently started attending a weekly yoga class (free to veterans) that meets about an hour's drive away in Loiusville TN each Wednesday afternoon. This class ends about 4:00pm and there's an FLGS - The Game Piece - located just a few minutes down the road from it. Wednesday's are that FLGS's "short day," meaning they close at 8:00pm (instead of 11:00pm). According to the staff I spoke with, this means that nobody runs any games on that day, since most groups aren't interested in short sessions. But a short session is fine with me . . . particularly given that DCC appears like it will be very easy/quick to run. As to DCC . . . The author advises Judges to try running the game exactly as written at least once, but also states that he expects very few will actually do so. For my part, I have only one quibble. Well, actually two, but only one has to do with running the game: Quibble One: Unlike (perhaps) the typical d20 player, I have no fundamental objection to a completely random character generation process, even one in which most of the PCs thus created DIE during generation. I'm a Classic Traveller fan, after all! But I would change the "Random Occupation Table" to the extent that various Dwarf, Elf and Halfling results are subtracted out to become their own separate tables. That is, players get to AT LEAST specify their character's race (which is also their class in the case of demihumans). (I agree with you. Your idea sounds cool. Let me know how it goes.) Quibble Two: The author states that his rules don't delve into "fiddly" levels of detail, which is fine. Neither does Classic Traveller. But to illustrate this, at least twice (that I have encountered thus far), the author uses as an example of this that his game does not include Attacks of Opportunity. Yet at the same time, in his Combat Chapter on Page 95 is the Withdrawal rule which states: "Once a character is engaged in melee, he cannot back away without opening himself up to attack. If a character or monster withdraws from an active melee - whether to retreat, move to a new position, or attempt some action - his opponents immediately receive a single free attack." Ehhh? Isn't this the *definition* of an Attack of Opportunity??? This distinction without a difference makes me a bit leery of what other blindspots I might find . . . (Again, I agree, I think that was left in for some reason I have yet to decipher. I'm not all the way through the Rule book so I can't offer any other warnings.)I hope some of my (very little experience as a player) was helpful raikenclw. |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Mar 18, 2022 8:27:28 GMT -5
I have no actual play experience with the DCC rules, but I think they read very well. I also agree on breaking out the Dwarf, Elf, and Halfling occupations. That might be a good project for members of this board. <hint, hint> It's been some time since I've picked up the rulebook, but the Attack of Opportunity posted above doesn't bother me IF that's all there is to it. I kind of dig that compared to what amounts to endless special circumstances and exceptions in some other games. Now I'm curious and want to dig the rulebook out to see if they keep it to a minimum or not.
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Post by simrion on Mar 18, 2022 18:07:25 GMT -5
Quibble Two: The author states that his rules don't delve into "fiddly" levels of detail, which is fine. Neither does Classic Traveller. But to illustrate this, at least twice (that I have encountered thus far), the author uses as an example of this that his game does not include Attacks of Opportunity. Yet at the same time, in his Combat Chapter on Page 95 is the Withdrawal rule which states: "Once a character is engaged in melee, he cannot back away without opening himself up to attack. If a character or monster withdraws from an active melee - whether to retreat, move to a new position, or attempt some action - his opponents immediately receive a single free attack." Ehhh? Isn't this the *definition* of an Attack of Opportunity??? This distinction without a difference makes me a bit leery of what other blindspots I might find . . . I'd have to go get a book and I'm admittedly lazy ATM, But I'm fairly certain this occurs in Moldvay Basic D&D? |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Mar 19, 2022 9:44:20 GMT -5
Quibble Two: The author states that his rules don't delve into "fiddly" levels of detail, which is fine. Neither does Classic Traveller. But to illustrate this, at least twice (that I have encountered thus far), the author uses as an example of this that his game does not include Attacks of Opportunity. Yet at the same time, in his Combat Chapter on Page 95 is the Withdrawal rule which states: "Once a character is engaged in melee, he cannot back away without opening himself up to attack. If a character or monster withdraws from an active melee - whether to retreat, move to a new position, or attempt some action - his opponents immediately receive a single free attack." Ehhh? Isn't this the *definition* of an Attack of Opportunity??? This distinction without a difference makes me a bit leery of what other blindspots I might find . . . I'd have to go get a book and I'm admittedly lazy ATM, But I'm fairly certain this occurs in Moldvay Basic D&D? B25 states that "any movement backwards at more than 1/2 the normal movement rate is a retreat. If a creature tries to retreat, the opponent may add +2 to all to hit rolls, and the defender is not allowed to make a return attack. In addition...attacks are further adjusted by using the defender's Armor Class without a shield.". While not exactly the same, the concept is clearly there in Moldvay Basic. |
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Post by simrion on Mar 19, 2022 17:01:03 GMT -5
I'd have to go get a book and I'm admittedly lazy ATM, But I'm fairly certain this occurs in Moldvay Basic D&D? B25 states that "any movement backwards at more than 1/2 the normal movement rate is a retreat. If a creature tries to retreat, the opponent may add +2 to all to hit rolls, and the defender is not allowed to make a return attack. In addition...attacks are further adjusted by using the defender's Armor Class without a shield.". While not exactly the same, the concept is clearly there in Moldvay Basic. An "attack of opportunity" with a bonus to hit...ouch! Those early games are brutal ;-) |
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Post by raikenclw on Mar 19, 2022 21:20:21 GMT -5
oldskolgmr , The Semi-Retired Gamer , and simrion : Thanks for your comments! I'm still reading [as stated, this is a MASSIVE book] but so far I haven't come across any additional oddities. One thing that I've been pondering is the concept of the random occupations, the initial Character Funnel adventure and how these relate to the wizard class. My ponderings focus upon the following points: 1) There is a 1% chance for a random 0-level character to be a "Wizard's Apprentice." 2) The Character Funnel is meant to kill 66%+ of the initial party of 15-20 0-level PCs, normally leaving each player with only a single surviving PC. 3) There is a long and detailed lecture by the author in the Magic section regarding the fact that acquiring spells at each level is far from automatic. The Judge is encouraged to make the search for new spells seeds of adventures. In particular, those who might be able to teach a PC Wizard a new spell would prefer to trade (rather than give or sell) spell knowledge. It seems from these points that without a high level of Judge intervention it's flatly impossible to have a Wizard PC. It sounds like the Catch 22 of getting a large loan: if you need such a thing you don't qualify to get it, whereas if you qualify then you likely don't need it. Therefore, I am considering allowing each player to choose the occupation of one (1) 0-level PC, then roll randomly for the remainder. As the Judge, I would then consider all the PCs of anyone who thus choose "Wizard's Apprentice" to be significantly connected to the actual Apprentice. Should this Apprentice not survive the Character Funnel, the most suitable surviving PC of that player would thereafter be accepted by the deceased's former Master as a replacement Apprentice. Thus, we get a Wizard PC for the resulting first level party without breaking suspension of disbelief.
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Post by simrion on Mar 20, 2022 6:25:54 GMT -5
I LOVE the random effects tables, they are a riot and reminiscent of the RoleMaster random tables. My players would put up a serious fuss though. They are very attached to their characters with a few exceptions. I do have a Father-Daughter pair that constantly split the party. Freakin' riot and when their characters perish they shrug and create new ones lol
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Mar 20, 2022 9:26:28 GMT -5
oldskolgmr , The Semi-Retired Gamer , and simrion : Thanks for your comments! <removed text> Therefore, I am considering allowing each player to choose the occupation of one (1) 0-level PC, then roll randomly for the remainder. As the Judge, I would then consider all the PCs of anyone who thus choose "Wizard's Apprentice" to be significantly connected to the actual Apprentice. Should this Apprentice not survive the Character Funnel, the most suitable surviving PC of that player would thereafter be accepted by the deceased's former Master as a replacement Apprentice. Thus, we get a Wizard PC for the resulting first level party without breaking suspension of disbelief. I dig it! That's an easy modification to insert without a bunch of messy details to worry about. I'm going to buy Mutant Crawl Classics at some point because I flipped through it at the store and it looks like it does for Gamma World what DCC did for early D&D. |
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Post by oldskolgmr on Mar 21, 2022 0:18:46 GMT -5
oldskolgmr , The Semi-Retired Gamer , and simrion : Thanks for your comments! Glad to be of help.
I'm still reading [as stated, this is a MASSIVE book] but so far I haven't come across any additional oddities. One thing that I've been pondering is the concept of the random occupations, the initial Character Funnel adventure and how these relate to the wizard class. My ponderings focus upon the following points: 1) There is a 1% chance for a random 0-level character to be a "Wizard's Apprentice." If you hadn't made this comment I would have totally forgotten that.
2) The Character Funnel is meant to kill 66%+ of the initial party of 15-20 0-level PCs, normally leaving each player with only a single surviving PC. I've played three funnel games now, all different GM's. Depending on the Judge's style you can have more than one Level 0 character survive, but it's rare (and I use all my Luck points).3) There is a long and detailed lecture by the author in the Magic section regarding the fact that acquiring spells at each level is far from automatic. The Judge is encouraged to make the search for new spells seeds of adventures. In particular, those who might be able to teach a PC Wizard a new spell would prefer to trade (rather than give or sell) spell knowledge. I didn't notice that, as you say the book is Big. (I'm seeing a lot of Judges just make house rules [and where did we all see that first in rpgs, hmm...], and pick what parts of the book they will use.)It seems from these points that without a high level of Judge intervention it's flatly impossible to have a Wizard PC. It sounds like the Catch 22 of getting a large loan: if you need such a thing you don't qualify to get it, whereas if you qualify then you likely don't need it. You seem to have done a closer read than I have, so all your points seem in order with one exception I'll post below your last statement.Therefore, I am considering allowing each player to choose the occupation of one (1) 0-level PC, then roll randomly for the remainder. As the Judge, I would then consider all the PCs of anyone who thus choose "Wizard's Apprentice" to be significantly connected to the actual Apprentice. Should this Apprentice not survive the Character Funnel, the most suitable surviving PC of that player would thereafter be accepted by the deceased's former Master as a replacement Apprentice. Thus, we get a Wizard PC for the resulting first level party without breaking suspension of disbelief. So, for me the big take away from the whole "Let's have a Funnel determine your character" idea was total suspension of disbelief. Even more suspension of belief than all the other Fantasy games I play. For me, the whole DCC thing, when it's been well run, is like a 60-70's B-Movie inspired game. It bases itself on OD&D premises, with some D&D 3rd rules. The Judges I have enjoyed playing with the most ignore the Crunchy rules, and they do theater of the mind (I like that more that Combat boards and counting my feet of space). As always if you, or your players aren't having fun than by all means change it. If suspension of belief for you or others is a problem, then you should remedy that. One Judge explained our characters funnel experience as a Narrative idea where our surviving characters have seen a wholly alien reality and returned transformed. "The former slave now understood how to contact The Dwellers Beyond to warp reality itself. She had returned as a Wizard." |
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Post by raikenclw on Mar 21, 2022 20:58:42 GMT -5
So, for me the big take away from the whole "Let's have a Funnel determine your character" idea was total suspension of disbelief. Even more suspension of belief than all the other Fantasy games I play. . . . One Judge explained our characters funnel experience as a Narrative idea where our surviving characters have seen a wholly alien reality and returned transformed. "The former slave now understood how to contact The Dwellers Beyond to warp reality itself. She had returned as a Wizard." I wouldn't call that "total suspension of disbelief." It sounds more like the player of the ex-slave and that Judge - working together - found an in-game way to justify the evolution of a surviving PC into a 1st Level Wizard. Given two creative and cooperative people, that's eminently possible. Then again, it's possible (even probable) that the two people in question had known each other for quite some time. In my situation, I don't expect to have previously even met my players, much less have any inkling as to what type of PC they prefer. By letting each player choose one (1) prior occupation - and assuming that they thereby choose an occupation which they hope their surviving 1st Level PC will follow - I am informed as to their desired character type so that I can make a similar creative ruling, once the Character Funnel is complete. For me, the whole DCC thing, when it's been well run, is like a 60-70's B-Movie inspired game. It bases itself on OD&D premises, with some D&D 3rd rules. The Judges I have enjoyed playing with the most ignore the Crunchy rules, and they do theater of the mind (I like that more that Combat boards and counting my feet of space). As always if you, or your players aren't having fun than by all means change it. If suspension of belief for you or others is a problem, then you should remedy that. This coming Saturday, me and a friend will be trying out DCC. Weirdly enough, this friend both shares and does not share your viewpoint. He's all for the randomness and the "60-70s B-Movie" feel. Yet at the same time, he's seriously into miniatures and counting feet of movement (to the point of using a tape measure to check character movement when running his own games).  We'll see how it goes. |
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Post by oldskolgmr on Mar 22, 2022 0:59:58 GMT -5
Have fun raikenclw! Let me know what you think of the results. |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Mar 22, 2022 7:04:40 GMT -5
raikenclw I'm very interested in hearing how this turns out with a player that's detailed oriented like that. Should be interesting.
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Post by raikenclw on Mar 24, 2022 0:45:22 GMT -5
raikenclw I'm very interested in hearing how this turns out with a player that's detailed oriented like that. Should be interesting. Will do! |
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Post by raikenclw on Mar 24, 2022 1:03:50 GMT -5
By the way, I re-configured the game's Occupations table. I printed out the 2-page table, then scanned each page into Paint as a JPEG image. Using cut-and-paste, I separated out the demi-humans onto the table's second page, then placed all the human occupations onto the first page. Dwarven table is 1d10, with 20% chances each for Miner and Stonemason, 10% each for the rest. Elven table is also 1d10, with 20% chances each for Forrester and Sage, 10% each for the rest. Halfling table is 1d12, with 16% chances each for Farmer* and Trader, 8% each for the rest. *Halflings did not originally have any chance of being a farmer. Finding this extremely odd, I fixed it. Human occupational chances had a couple of major probability changes, as I didn't even try to smooth out the gaps caused by removing the demi-humans. Also, my player's expressed interest in randomly rolling a Gongfarmer (e.g. compost producer) fit smoothly into this, as all of the "Halfling Whatevers" originally came just a couple of entries after that one. So humans now have a 29% chance to be Farmers and an 11% chance to be Gongfarmers.  |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Mar 24, 2022 17:48:24 GMT -5
By the way, I re-configured the game's Occupations table. I printed out the 2-page table, then scanned each page into Paint as a JPEG image. Using cut-and-paste, I separating out the demi-humans onto the table's second page, then placed all the human occupations onto the first page. Dwarven table is 1d10, with 20% chances each for Miner and Stonemason, 10% each for the rest. Elven table is also 1d10, with 20% chances each for Forrester and Sage, 10% each for the rest. Halfling table is 1d12, with 16% chances each for Farmer* and Trader, 8% each for the rest. * Halflings did not originally have any chance of being a farmer. Finding this extremely odd, I fixed it. Human occupational chances had a couple of major probability changes, as I didn't even try to smooth out the gaps caused by removing the demi-humans. Also, my player's expressed interest in randomly rolling a Gongfarmer (e.g. compost producer) fit smoothly into this, as all of the "Halfling Whatevers" originally came just a couple of entries after that one. So humans now have a 29% chance to be Farmers and an 11% chance to be Gongfarmers. I never noticed that! I agree with your assessment of "extremely odd". I believe I'm going to do the same thing and get it printed out to slide into my notebook. Bravo, sir! Have an exalt!! |
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Post by raikenclw on Mar 24, 2022 18:53:51 GMT -5
* Halflings did not originally have any chance of being a farmer. Finding this extremely odd, I fixed it. I never noticed that! I agree with your assessment of "extremely odd". I believe I'm going to do the same thing and get it printed out to slide into my notebook. Bravo, sir! Have an exalt!! Thank you, kind sir! I wonder if I can post my cut-and-paste efforts here? Hmmm . . .   I had to go through Photobucket, but it seems to have worked. |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Mar 24, 2022 20:57:38 GMT -5
raikenclw excellent work! That looks way better than what I would have come up with.
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Post by oldskolgmr on Mar 25, 2022 10:57:21 GMT -5
Nice work raikenclw! Have an Exalt for that! I may have to see about printing this. |
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Post by raikenclw on Mar 31, 2022 21:47:19 GMT -5
Thank you kindly, The Semi-Retired Gamer and oldskolgmr! It really wasn't much effort. When I purchased the physical book at my FLGS, it came with a code to download a free PDF copy from drivethrurpg. After downloading that PDF, I printed out the two pages concerned then scanned them individually into Paint (at 600 ppi). Then it was just a matter of cutting and pasting the relevant sections, plus adding section titles for the demi-human tables. The only part that was even vaguely challenging was renumbering of the table entries, since I didn't want to use a visibly-different font. I solved that by zooming in and using copy/paste to construct the new numbering from copies of various existing numbers on the same page. Oh! I also had to reduce the Party Encountering A Skeleton pic to ~80% of it's original size, in order to leave room for those demi-human table titles. |
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Post by raikenclw on Mar 31, 2022 21:51:25 GMT -5
I may have to see about printing this. I'm pretty sure you can download it from my photobucket page here
Hmmmm It doesn't seem to want to link to my page without my needing to login. Must be some sort of update. Ah, well. Maybe you can take it from above? |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Apr 1, 2022 7:20:23 GMT -5
I may have to see about printing this. I'm pretty sure you can download it from my photobucket page here
Hmmmm It doesn't seem to want to link to my page without my needing to login. Must be some sort of update. Ah, well. Maybe you can take it from above? I got it from above with no issues.  |
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Post by raikenclw on Apr 3, 2022 21:52:24 GMT -5
Myself, Patrick (Measuring Tape Guy) and Mark (a fellow player in Patrick's Adventures in Middle Earth game) tried out DCC Saturday before last. Generating characters was fun, with Patrick and Mark each generating four 0-level humans. As GM, I was rather generous, assigning to each character the maximum four (4) hit points and also letting each roll a d24 on Table 3-4: Equipment (because why else would the rules give that table a 0-level character random roll column?). Hilariously, Patrick's gongfarmer - whose issue Trade Good was a "sack of night soil" - received an (empty) "Large Sack" from this additional roll. I then started them through the rulebook's Level 0 adventure Portal Under The Stars. I tweaked this a bit by making the entry door's locking feature rather easier to figure out. I portrayed the door as bearing a series of concentric circles, with each circle housing the traditional depiction of one of the "stars" (e.g. neighboring planets) that were in linear conjunction in the "real" night sky. Each door star started out slightly out of alignment, but could be moved along it's incised track. Once each was lined up, an audible click could be heard/felt. Once all were lined up, the door unlocked and eased itself open a few inches. Of course, this also primed the door's threshold and the 5' space immediately inside of same as a pressure plate, which in it's turn triggered the four mechanical javelin-throwing statues lined up on the first chamber's far wall. As a result, the first PC to ease cautiously through the door - one of Mark's guys - died quite gruesomely. (NOTE: I was prepared to give said PC a large bonus to AC if they'd done something inventive - such as enter the room in a diving roll - but decided that the standard cautious entrance would get the standard result). Patrick immediately asked if the statues had reloaded. When I assured my players that the statues were all frozen at the end of their follow-through the remaining seven PCs quickly bustled in. NOTE: They rather inventively used the dead PC as a doorstop, so that their way out couldn't close behind them. In the next room, they took note of the pointing finger that was tracking them and the lone volunteer - another of Mark's PCs - who opened the door furthest from said finger ALSO dove through said door (Reflex Saving Throw) to avoid the resulting flame. A second of Mark's PCs used this opportunity to get right up next to the arm and ram his Trained Weapon - a Cobbler's Awl - into the spout at the end of the fire finger, thereby rendering the trap harmless. They looted the collapsed skeletons of their armor, which I changed to age-stiffened studded leather and allowed them to successfully don, once they realized the skulls could only chitter harmlessly at them. They also made a point of crushing said skulls anyway, which - of course - later benefited them. They simply ran - in perfect Monty Python fashion - from the giant snake in the oracle room, slamming the door to the fire-statue room in it's hissing face. <shrug> I gave them this out, since said snake DID foolishly pause before striking to proclaim it's short soliloquy. In the pool room with the crystals, [EDIT: They quickly noticed that the shuffling crystal creatures were no threat, so lured them into the skeleton room with a single lit torch, throwing it into the room then closing the door behind the creatures. With the pool room now empty of creatures,] they industriously began removing the crystals in the pool's bottom, but not until Patrick identified the strange behavior of the first one removed, that of getting mysteriously pulled back into place. With one of his PC's holding the removed crystal aside (using a javelin from the first room's trap), his gongfarmer dropped some "night soil" into the water and watched the resulting swirls disappear downward. However, they stopped removing crystals as soon as they felt the first tremors from a possibly collapsing floor. They industriously looted the gaming room/hallway. This took enough time that once they entered the clay army room all the clay men who were directly beneath draining crystal holes had mostly dissolved, while the feet and shins of the remainder had likewise washed away. This - of course - made it essentially impossible for the surviving soldier clay golems to climb out of that lower level. Meanwhile, the seven commanders already had their clay heads crushed - due to the skeleton-skull-crushing that took place earlier. This left only the Boss Clay Monster for the PCs to fight . . . That's where we stopped. We will - hopefully - resume next week (I was sick yesterday or we would have continued then). |
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Post by raikenclw on Apr 4, 2022 0:49:37 GMT -5
NOTE: Given the extremely awkward size of the DDC rulebook, I am considering creating four separate spiralbound volumes, to be entitled Player's Guide (Characters, Combat, Equipment, Appendix L and Appendix N), Wizard's Grimoire (Magic - edited to remove references to clerics - plus Wizard spells), Cleric's Psalter (Magic - edited to remove references to wizards - plus Cleric spells) and Judge's Guide (everything in the Player's Guide plus every rule/commentary not included in the rest). The physical book I bought included a coupon code for a free pdf version through DriveThruRPG. Therefore, selectively printing out pages will be easy and fairly cheap. If I print them at my local library as two-sided printouts each printed page will cost only $0.05. The only difficulty will be the two edited Magic sections, which I will probably have to produce using the computer at work (after scanning the originals into Paint so I can alter them). Also, rather than putting a simple copy of the original index into each book, I'm considering creating an edited index for each, containing only those references which actually appear in that specific book. Of course, I intend to leave out the SEVERAL pages of advertisements which appear at the end of the original book . . .  |
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Post by hengest on Apr 4, 2022 7:47:23 GMT -5
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But I would change the "Random Occupation Table" to the extent that various Dwarf, Elf and Halfling results are subtracted out to become their own separate tables. That is, players get to AT LEAST specify their character's race (which is also their class in the case of demihumans).
