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Post by havard on Jan 27, 2015 17:08:45 GMT -5
Who on this new forum is interested in Blackmoor?  How and when did you become interested in Dave Arneson's setting / campaign? Bonus question: What aspect of Blackmoor do you like the most? -Havard |
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Post by finarvyn on Jan 27, 2015 17:32:16 GMT -5
'bout time you got here, Havard. I'd have thought that the instant I started a Blackmoor thread your Spidey sense would go into overdrive.  ANSWER: I got ahold of Supplement II Blackmoor in '76 or so, so I guess I had some interest in Blackmoor from the really early days, but it was the First Fantasy Campaign book that really rocked my Blackmoor world. BONUS: Identifying a single aspect of Blackmoor is hard ... I think I'd say that "original" best decribes Blackmoor for me. Nowadays lots of folks throw together complex campaign worlds, but Blackmoor was pretty much the first. Dave had no real guidelines other than examples from literature, which isn't quite the same as putting together a campaign, and so he was blazing a new trail with each new Blackmoor adventure. ALSO: Bringing the conversation back to OD&D, this is also one of the aspects of the little brown books that grabs my interest. After watching 40 years of examples, it's not a surprise that folks have learned how to write or organize an RPG better, but OD&D didn't have any examples. Everything they did was new and innovative. |
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Post by tetramorph on Jan 27, 2015 17:36:18 GMT -5
I am interested in Blackmoor! I am fascinated by what may have been Arneson's unique contribution to D&D and his sense of the over-all campaign. Blackmoor never developed an "end game" because what folks call "end game" just was the game! Yet he invented the dungeon crawl! I love that. So I got interested in Arneson's campaign setting when I rediscovered D&D, learned about OD&D for the first time and really got into its history. I am a traditional kind of guy. I love getting back to the roots of things and trying to keep the spirit rather than the letter of that root alive, imagine how to keep it going now. I can't earn any of your bonus credit, havard, because I've never actually played in Blackmoor. If I ever get a chance to, I'll come back and let you know! |
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Post by Admin Pete on Jan 27, 2015 22:31:36 GMT -5
I am a interested in Blackmoor and a fan, in the fall of 1975 I read: From that time on I wanted to know more about Blackmoor and Dave Arneson. For me one of the striking things about Blackmoor is the villains of which the "Egg of Coot" is but one example (the whole thing just oozes personality). Also the gonzo approach which I also believe was a direct inspiration of The Arduin Grimoire and what followed with Dave Hargrave. Then of course I saw Supplement II Blackmoor and then it was not until around 2005 or so that I first saw the First Fantasy Campaign book. I sure wish that had been out in 1975.  |
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Post by havard on Jan 28, 2015 11:17:39 GMT -5
'bout time you got here, Havard. I'd have thought that the instant I started a Blackmoor thread your Spidey sense would go into overdrive. Hi Fin! I did feel a certain disturbance in the Force, yes... Dave, Gary & Co were certainly pioneers. I suppose the examples they would have looked at would have been war games and board games. But they were indeed operating in an environment where conventions had not been set yet and pretty much everything was allowed. Dave Arneson has stated that one of his motivations for starting the Blackmoor game was to get away from some of the endless arguments about rules and historical accuracies that plagued some of the wargaming groups. This was probably why he chose the fantasy genre rather than the more popular historical type of gaming (Napoleonics, Ancients etc) which were popular at the time. I wonder if it was this initial idea that spurred him to experiment further, both in terms of which elements to include (Elves, Dragons, Robots, Nazis, Space Ships) and also gaming methods (Individual characters, Dungeons, Refree vs Players, Strategy, Dominions, Naval Battles, Trade Wars, etc). -Havard |
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Post by tetramorph on Jan 28, 2015 20:10:51 GMT -5
havard, that is so interesting to me, what you said about Arneson deliberately choosing fantasy so people couldn't argue over "facts." It reminds me a lot of Tony Bath. He said the best way to war game is in your own fantasy world because then you make up the "facts" that you are trying to map with your rules.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jan 29, 2015 0:11:49 GMT -5
Dave, Gary & Co were certainly pioneers. I suppose the examples they would have looked at would have been war games and board games. But they were indeed operating in an environment where conventions had not been set yet and pretty much everything was allowed. Dave Arneson has stated that one of his motivations for starting the Blackmoor game was to get away from some of the endless arguments about rules and historical accuracies that plagued some of the wargaming groups. This was probably why he chose the fantasy genre rather than the more popular historical type of gaming (Napoleonics, Ancients etc) which were popular at the time. I wonder if it was this initial idea that spurred him to experiment further, both in terms of which elements to include (Elves, Dragons, Robots, Nazis, Space Ships) and also gaming methods (Individual characters, Dungeons, Refree vs Players, Strategy, Dominions, Naval Battles, Trade Wars, etc). -Havard I would wager that it was, I have heard that some people spend more time arguing than playing, fortunately I have never experienced that. I would imagine if you had experienced a lot of that, you would be strongly motivated to avoid it in the future. |
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Post by havard on Jan 30, 2015 14:52:10 GMT -5
I would wager that it was, I have heard that some people spend more time arguing than playing, fortunately I have never experienced that. I would imagine if you had experienced a lot of that, you would be strongly motivated to avoid it in the future. We used to have tons of that in our old AD&D 2nd Edition games. Rules complexity might have something to do with that, but I suspect the most important reason was killer DMs. If the one thing between having your character die or survive was having a better understanding of the minute details of the rules, then you would get really into it. Not quite the same as with historical war gaming, but I can sort of relate to Dave's frustration -Havard |
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Post by finarvyn on Jan 30, 2015 15:02:08 GMT -5
But the beauty of Dave's style was that you told him what you wanted to do and he'd deal with the mechanics of it, so there weren't so many rules lawyers. Modern day rulebooks are so comprehensive that everything is spelled out, and this encourages players to look for loopholes and such, but older rulebooks tended to be vague guidelines so there wasn't a "letter of the law" to violate.
In 5E I had a player who grabbed ahold of a peryton and rode on its back. It rose up 60 feet and then was killed by the party's ranger. The peryton crashed to earth and the monk floated unhurt because monks can fall more than 60 feet. In an OD&D campaign there aren't specific numbers tied so closely to events like this, so I could grab a handful of dice to toss some damage his way. In 5E it clearly specifies numbers. At this point lawyering the rules might improve a character's chance of survival, but I think it also removes a lot of the fun of the game.
Just my two coppers.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jan 31, 2015 1:44:38 GMT -5
But the beauty of Dave's style was that you told him what you wanted to do and he'd deal with the mechanics of it, so there weren't so many rules lawyers. Modern day rulebooks are so comprehensive that everything is spelled out, and this encourages players to look for loopholes and such, but older rulebooks tended to be vague guidelines so there wasn't a "letter of the law" to violate. In 5E I had a player who grabbed ahold of a peryton and rode on its back. It rose up 60 feet and then was killed by the party's ranger. The peryton crashed to earth and the monk floated unhurt because monks can fall more than 60 feet. In an OD&D campaign there aren't specific numbers tied so closely to events like this, so I could grab a handful of dice to toss some damage his way. In 5E it clearly specifies numbers. At this point lawyering the rules might improve a character's chance of survival, but I think it also removes a lot of the fun of the game. Just my two coppers. You nailed it! I can understand some of the desire for a uniform set of rules for tournament play BUT I think it also killed some (most even?) of the creativity in individual campaigns. The baseline of D&D rules was pretty slim in the early days and each campaign would develop different standards and rulings. Thus, "Dave's Game" or "Gary's Game" was truly just that. The DM did not start off with a vast amount of baseline rules to learn but was encouraged to develop their game to their tastes. The collected rulings were an extension of the DM just as the campaign was a reflection of their tastes. Simpler is better! |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jan 31, 2015 1:49:56 GMT -5
Who on this new forum is interested in Blackmoor? How and when did you become interested in Dave Arneson's setting / campaign? Bonus question: What aspect of Blackmoor do you like the most? -Havard I'm a fan. i became interested in Blackmoor when I ran across Supplement II for the first time. I started with Holmes so I didn't see Supplement II until years later. i think my favorite part is the Stuff that sets it apart like the tech items. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Feb 10, 2015 0:14:48 GMT -5
But the beauty of Dave's style was that you told him what you wanted to do and he'd deal with the mechanics of it, so there weren't so many rules lawyers. Modern day rulebooks are so comprehensive that everything is spelled out, and this encourages players to look for loopholes and such, but older rulebooks tended to be vague guidelines so there wasn't a "letter of the law" to violate. In 5E I had a player who grabbed ahold of a peryton and rode on its back. It rose up 60 feet and then was killed by the party's ranger. The peryton crashed to earth and the monk floated unhurt because monks can fall more than 60 feet. In an OD&D campaign there aren't specific numbers tied so closely to events like this, so I could grab a handful of dice to toss some damage his way. In 5E it clearly specifies numbers. At this point lawyering the rules might improve a character's chance of survival, but I think it also removes a lot of the fun of the game. Just my two coppers. You nailed it! I can understand some of the desire for a uniform set of rules for tournament play BUT I think it also killed some (most even?) of the creativity in individual campaigns. The baseline of D&D rules was pretty slim in the early days and each campaign would develop different standards and rulings. Thus, "Dave's Game" or "Gary's Game" was truly just that. The DM did not start off with a vast amount of baseline rules to learn but was encouraged to develop their game to their tastes. The collected rulings were an extension of the DM just as the campaign was a reflection of their tastes. Simpler is better! Exactly, every ref was expected to fill in the blanks his own way and every campaign was unique! |
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Post by havard on Feb 11, 2015 11:48:17 GMT -5
Complex rules vs rules light is a classic debate. Very rules light games can be fun, but IMO they require alot of trust in the GM. Overall I find OD&D a little too rules light for my tastes, but AD&D & D20 are too rules heavy again. I ran a 3E campaign for a while, but I always DMed it much more old school style (ie rules light) than how the game was written. My preferred edition is BECMI D&D -Havard |
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Post by tetramorph on Feb 11, 2015 13:24:01 GMT -5
Complex rules vs rules light is a classic debate. Very rules light games can be fun, but IMO they require alot of trust in the GM. Overall I find OD&D a little too rules light for my tastes, but AD&D & D20 are too rules heavy again. I ran a 3E campaign for a while, but I always DMed it much more old school style (ie rules light) than how the game was written. My preferred edition is BECMI D&D -Havard I read you. I roll with trusting the DM because I want the game to MOVE! That's just me. |
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Post by finarvyn on Feb 12, 2015 6:38:43 GMT -5
If you really want to experience full "GM trust" mode, try AMBER DICELESS. It has a very simple non-random game mechanic and totally relies on the GM to adjucate situations fairly. A fun game, but way too rules lite for many.
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Post by havard on Feb 12, 2015 15:39:57 GMT -5
Complex rules vs rules light is a classic debate. Very rules light games can be fun, but IMO they require alot of trust in the GM. Overall I find OD&D a little too rules light for my tastes, but AD&D & D20 are too rules heavy again. I ran a 3E campaign for a while, but I always DMed it much more old school style (ie rules light) than how the game was written. My preferred edition is BECMI D&D -Havard I read you. I roll with trusting the DM because I want the game to MOVE! That's just me. I don't think this is about trusting vs not trusting, but degrees of trust. Similarly more complex rulesets will slow down the game, but again there are levels of complexity and levels of how how much a game is slowed down. Rules complexity isn't only about DM trust either though. But ultimately it is about personal preference and the preference of the overall group. -Havard |
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Post by ffilz on Feb 12, 2015 17:50:44 GMT -5
I've been using Blackmoor as a campaign setting for years. Most recently, I have been using it for a Burning Wheel setting.
My favorite bit is the map.
Frank
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2015 12:45:53 GMT -5
I am a interested in Blackmoor and a fan, in the fall of 1975 I read: From that time on I wanted to know more about Blackmoor and Dave Arneson. For me one of the striking things about Blackmoor is the villains of which the "Egg of Coot" is but one example (the whole thing just oozes personality). Also the gonzo approach which I also believe was a direct inspiration of The Arduin Grimoire and what followed with Dave Hargrave. Then of course I saw Supplement II Blackmoor and then it was not until around 2005 or so that I first saw the First Fantasy Campaign book. I sure wish that had been out in 1975. The "Egg of Coot" is Greg Scott, owner of GHQ and one of the people that gave Dave and Gary so much hassle over the RPG. Edit: to move new comment out of the quote(Quotes are trickier than they used to be)Admin
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Post by havard on Feb 21, 2015 10:12:25 GMT -5
I've been using Blackmoor as a campaign setting for years. Most recently, I have been using it for a Burning Wheel setting. My favorite bit is the map. Frank I'd love to hear more about this game. How does Burning Wheel change the Blackmoor experience? -Havard |
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Post by cadriel on Feb 21, 2015 20:33:49 GMT -5
Who on this new forum is interested in Blackmoor? I guess I'd qualify as interested in Blackmoor. I periodically write about it in my blog, and The First Fantasy Campaign is a regular source of inspiration for me. Probably when I bought Supplement II: Blackmoor back in 2007 or so. I was becoming aware of Dave's unique contributions and interested in the first campaign for historical reasons. For me I guess it's the science fantasy, since that's an aspect of the game that I am always trying to emphasize over "vanilla fantasy." |
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Post by ffilz on Feb 23, 2015 17:00:24 GMT -5
I've been using Blackmoor as a campaign setting for years. Most recently, I have been using it for a Burning Wheel setting. My favorite bit is the map. Frank I'd love to hear more about this game. How does Burning Wheel change the Blackmoor experience? -Havard Since I've mostly used it as a map, the campaigns take on the tone of the gamesystem I am using. For Burning Wheel, we have set up an old religion vs. new religion dynamic, with polytheistic faith and spirit binding as the old vs. mono-theistic faith and sorcery as the new (with the sorcery part of the church - cleverly named the Church of the Burning Wheel). I've only ever done a tiny bit of D&D with Blackmoor, and other than the color maps from the DA series (and using the DA Valley of the Ancients rather than the Wilderlands), I really haven't used any module content. Frank |
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Post by Mr Darke on Feb 26, 2015 16:01:59 GMT -5
I like the things like the FFC and reading Dave's interviews. There is a lot there to borrow from and it is fun to see how it was played before it was D&D. I just wish he were still around to ask a few questions.
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Post by finarvyn on Feb 27, 2015 13:45:31 GMT -5
I've been using Blackmoor as a campaign setting for years. Most recently, I have been using it for a Burning Wheel setting. My favorite bit is the map. Frank I'd love to hear more about this game. How does Burning Wheel change the Blackmoor experience? -Havard I'm curious about the same thing. I bought a copy of TORCHBEARER, which I think is a variant of BURNING WHEEL, and it's supposed to have a different feel due to its mechanics. I'd be interested in how it works for BLACKMOOR. EDIT: Ah. I just realized that this thread extended to page 2, and that Frank replied two posts above mine. He doesn't need to reply again. |
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Post by ffilz on Feb 27, 2015 18:10:42 GMT -5
I'd love to hear more about this game. How does Burning Wheel change the Blackmoor experience? -Havard I'm curious about the same thing. I bought a copy of TORCHBEARER, which I think is a variant of BURNING WHEEL, and it's supposed to have a different feel due to its mechanics. I'd be interested in how it works for BLACKMOOR. EDIT: Ah. I just realized that this thread extended to page 2, and that Frank replied two posts above mine. He doesn't need to reply again. I did consider using Blackmoor and Torchbearer together (actually managed to be the first to post when the world building rules were previewed): Blackmoor would actually be wonderful for Torchbearer, it would be easy to toss Torchbearer sized dungeons around the map. The various content could be used to inform the writeups for the various settlements. Hmm, you could even use the Blackmoor dungeon, it's not got that many keyed areas, and just describe meandering through the maze. Frank |
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