You had to be there!

[dragondaddy]

...says Rob.

I agree, there probably is nothing comparable to being there when the new D&D game was first created. I'm not comparing that experience though...

One of the things that made D&D so popular, was that you could simply add to the rules to include what you envisioned. In fact there was a structure and system for doing so with character classes and character levels. Don't like the characters available, Make up your own character class. I did this multiple times in the first few years of playing. I created completely new monsters, and modified existing monsters to suit my game. I lost count of the hours I spent making unique and new towers, and dungeons, and castles, and towns, and kingdoms. I wrote up new npcs, borrowing liberally from existing fiction, as well as making up completely new characters just to suit my campaign world. I still remember the Bard Triplets. The Three bard brothers, that lived in the two crystal towers. They traveled the lands playing in taverns and inns, and almost always had a good story ready for a group of players that were resting on the road. Some were stories of unrequited love, some were stories of monsters and treasures, they had stories of courts and intrigues, and were instrumental in launching many extended campaigns in my games. One of the bard brothers was a shapechanger and a minstrel, and another always had a circle of Ioun stones protecting him, and sang songs of magic spells. The third favored a harp, and had the most beautiful, graceful, and elegant of horses he traveled on. Every once in a great while they would all travel together.

My whole point is, the original Lake Geneva/Minnesota groups were not the only groups that experienced an explosion of creativity, uniqueness, and wonder while playing D&D.

Yes, those of us that began in 1977 already had a framework and a set of rules and guidelines to play by. That in no way, shape, or form limited us in trying our own hand at creating great new and completely unique fantasy experiences for others.

[Bartholmew Quarrels]

Jun 27, 2018 20:24:59 GMT -5 dragondaddy said:

My whole point is, the original Lake Geneva/Minnesota groups were not the only groups that experienced an explosion of creativity, uniqueness, and wonder while playing D&D.

That is signature worthy. This is important to remember and to remember that most of the people this is true of will never register at a forum or read a blog or be in a Google+ group. They are invisible compared to the several module generations. 

[ripx187]

That statement deserves an Exalt! Playing by the book was never a thing. Everybody had their own game going, even as late as 2e. 0D&D, AD&D, and even the current D&D are tools to express creativity. That is why this worked. Every user who participates in this activity brings with them something new. Back in the day this was all we did, it was cheap entertainment, which was nice because we had no money. In fact, one of the motivators to get back into the hobby after several years was that once again, we had no money.

Even when times are slim, friends can meet up, have a good time, roll some dice, and visit strange and amazing places together.

[hengest]

The OP by dragondaddy indeed deserves an exalt. As does the previous post by ripx187.

This is a hobby that costs basically nothing. If you are out of work or are stretched thin financially, you can play in the same game with literally anyone else. If you lost every sourcebook or handbook you had and every die and every note, you could ref a game in a lean-to with a friend using a metal slug as a randomizer. Or you can sit down at a table with a ten-year-old, college students, and a retiree all of different backgrounds, having different ideas, and have a great time.

The most important common thing is not any ruleset, expectations about levelling or combat or exploration. The most important thing is the very idea of entering the game, and I expect that plenty of people who are not represented at all on this board or other boards or anywhere in the OSR or RPG world have benefited from that idea. But still, may the boards live long and keep contributing to this hobby.

[Admin Pete]

Apr 13, 2021 9:35:06 GMT -5 hengest said:

The OP by dragondaddy indeed deserves an exalt. As does the previous post by ripx187.

This is a hobby that costs basically nothing. If you are out of work or are stretched thin financially, you can play in the same game with literally anyone else. If you lost every sourcebook or handbook you had and every die and every note, you could ref a game in a lean-to with a friend using a metal slug as a randomizer. Or you can sit down at a table with a ten-year-old, college students, and a retiree all of different backgrounds, having different ideas, and have a great time.

The most important common thing is not any ruleset, expectations about levelling or combat or exploration. The most important thing is the very idea of entering the game, and I expect that plenty of people who are not represented at all on this board or other boards or anywhere in the OSR or RPG world have benefited from that idea. But still, may the boards live long and keep contributing to this hobby.

I think you are right about not needing all the sourcebooks and handbooks, etc. The only thing you really need is the open play style. The closed play style relies on all the written materials, but with the open play style you can live without them.

[Morton]

Maybe you had to be there, but the same applies to where each of us were when we started - you had to be there. If you started back in the 70s you were on equal footing. Whether your name was Arneson or Gygax or Hargrave or joe shmo, you were all on an equal footing. None of those guys did it by themselves, I bet half the stuff they came up with came from their players, just the same as it does for the rest of us. I don't take a back seat to anyone and neither should any of you.

[hengest]

Apr 24, 2021 23:48:11 GMT -5 Morton said:

Maybe you had to be there, but the same applies to where each of us were when we started - you had to be there. If you started back in the 70s you were on equal footing. Whether your name was Arneson or Gygax or Hargrave or joe shmo, you were all on an equal footing. None of those guys did it by themselves, I bet half the stuff they came up with came from their players, just the same as it does for the rest of us. I don't take a back seat to anyone and neither should any of you.

I think about this all the time. Not just in reference in game stuff. The recent Beatles documentary (I think) shows non-musicians they worked with coming up with a line or so of lyrics for what became classic songs. It's almost impossible to remember the source for anything. So, while taking nothing away from Arneson or anyone else who worked on the materials in the early days, I think it's true that there was a lot of creativity boiling around in the country at that time and certain things found their way into the game.  

Even after OD&D, just imagine how different publications might have been if person X had met someone and quit to go off and sell insurance in another state and was replaced by someone else with a different set of ideas.  The whole hobby might have been different.

So I do believe that they had intense creative fun in a way that we probably can't quite imagine, but I think the same is true for any group.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Jan 16, 2022 14:05:20 GMT -5 hengest said:

Apr 24, 2021 23:48:11 GMT -5 Morton said:

Maybe you had to be there, but the same applies to where each of us were when we started - you had to be there. If you started back in the 70s you were on equal footing. Whether your name was Arneson or Gygax or Hargrave or joe shmo, you were all on an equal footing. None of those guys did it by themselves, I bet half the stuff they came up with came from their players, just the same as it does for the rest of us. I don't take a back seat to anyone and neither should any of you.

I think about this all the time. Not just in reference in game stuff. The recent Beatles documentary (I think) shows non-musicians they worked with coming up with a line or so of lyrics for what became classic songs. It's almost impossible to remember the source for anything. So, while taking nothing away from Arneson or anyone else who worked on the materials in the early days, I think it's true that there was a lot of creativity boiling around in the country at that time and certain things found their way into the game.  

Even after OD&D, just imagine how different publications might have been if person X had met someone and quit to go off and sell insurance in another state and was replaced by someone else with a different set of ideas.  The whole hobby might have been different.

So I do believe that they had intense creative fun in a way that we probably can't quite imagine, but I think the same is true for any group.

I generally agree with all of it, but I think anyone who started with much of the same reading background, and came from a oral tradition background, even though I was at the tail end of it, I think our (my) intense creative fun does not have to take a back seat to theirs and while that offended Rob some at the time, I stand by it. We had to pick the game up without the benefit of having been wargamers and had no connection to TSR people to learn the game by watching, it was a first hand learn from scratch effort and we immediately started creating monsters and magic items and all the rest. We got it without being shown it. No I am not going to let even the old guard tell me my experience has to take a back seat to anyone else's.

[True Black Raven]

Apr 24, 2021 23:48:11 GMT -5 Morton said:

Maybe you had to be there, but the same applies to where each of us were when we started - you had to be there. If you started back in the 70s you were on equal footing. Whether your name was Arneson or Gygax or Hargrave or joe shmo, you were all on an equal footing. None of those guys did it by themselves, I bet half the stuff they came up with came from their players, just the same as it does for the rest of us. I don't take a back seat to anyone and neither should any of you.

I think you make a great point Morton, I think as DMs/Refs most of our ideas come from our players, because they are always talking and voicing aloud ideas about what we might do and those are all part of the game and we use a lot of those ideas. I bet all these guys did too. Rob can say you had to be there and while that is true, I think I agree with TPD that our experiences are not that different or in anyway inferior.

[Vladimir, The Dark Prince]

Sometimes you have define what "there" is, and sometimes that definition is broader than one would think.