Origins of the Oeridians: a second take.
Jun 3, 2018 16:58:05 GMT -5
Admin Pete, Crimhthan The Great, and 2 more like this
Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Jun 3, 2018 16:58:05 GMT -5
I was doing research on the Great Kingdom maps this morning & came across a blog post from 2013 (it can be found here) called 'Greyhawk: Origins of the Oeridian Peoples'. Though I find Gozar!'s theories intriguing I think he let's his imagination take him too far afield, but that is up to you to decide. This post is to present my opinion of the 'Origins of the Oeridian Peoples'.
Here is a quote from the blog:
The bolded text is by me & I really think Gosar! is grasping on this claim, though the Common Tongue is a mixture of Old Oeridian & Ancient Baklunish, Old Oeridian seems to be easier to translate into common directly - Common isn't just a primary byproduct of Oeridian. Ancient Baklunish is only spoken in certain areas, most Bakluni likely speak common and some dialect among their own people - at least that is how the text seems to hint at.
Figure 1 as presented by Gozar! below.
I think Gozar! takes the overlapping Oeridian tag to mean that the Oeridians came from further south, where as I posit that was simply based on how the map was constructed. The same migration origin is listed in the Greyhawk Guidebook from the 83 Box Set but with the Oeridians tagged under the migration lines.
From Greyhawk BoxSet figure 2 as listed below.
Gozar! seems to be stretching here as well, as even in the GH Folio the nomadic tribes didn't enter the Flanaess until 964CY. Even if they pressed into Ull far prior to that, it would've been hundreds of years after the peak of the Oeridian Migration thus Ull was likely devoid of non-humanoids by that time. The Euroz had pushed the Oeridians east into Flanaess by 167CY & whatever remained of their tribal lands was likely raised or occupied by Euroz tribes until the Bakluni Uli tribe of the Payims flooded south pushing out the last Oeridians & Euroz tribes, those Oeridians likely became the Oerid-Bakulish Nomads that dominate Northwestern Flanaess. Ull took it's name from the Uli tribes, likely taking over the old name of the region - the Oerid Vale (at least that is how it'll be if I run a Greyhawk campaign).
I think Gozar! is reading too much into the text. 1) the History is just a flavorful overview not a point-by-point treatise. 2) the Ull write up focuses on Ull of the time of the campaign begins if you run it from 1220CY as expected. 3) Clearly, he doesn't understand that in our world there are a number of Languages Isolate - sure most had some influence from their neighbors; but the fact that Oeridian language was not influenced by other languages may speak of the domination in which Oeridians subjected their non-Oeridian subjects - Flan & Sulois alike. You simply spoke & wrote using Oeridian, no other language was allowed to be spoken and non-Oeridian concepts were purged from the subjected peoples. It was likely not until 964CY with the Bakluni nomads spreading eastward and helped create the 'Common' tongue did non-Oeridian influences start to seep into the post 'Old Oeridian' Language dialects.
Depending on version (80 GH Folio or 83 Greyhawk Box set) Ull is either 800,000 sq miles or 90,000 sq Leagues - either way it is a vast area easy could house the combined tribes of the Oeridians. If you look at the migration maps above the Flan dominated only small regions - they are portrayed in both sources as 'Hunters (& gathers)' who were not particularly warlike and their small and scattered groups made no appreciable civilizing efforts. So the Flan likely did not come into contact with the Oeridians until they migrated into Flanaess proper. The Sulois were even more distant with only the Bakluni even remotely close to their ancient homeland now called Ull. The Bakluni likely didn't move to the region nearby until around 964CY so their influence would've been non-existent till then.
Gozar!'s next theory is that they are space aliens - a huge leap in my humble opinion, sure it could be true but I doubt it. I am not troubled by his assertions I just find that they are based on faulty logic. They could be aliens from Space or from a portal where they and their Gods came into the world of Oerik. In any future campaign the Oeridians come from the former Oerid Vale which is now named Ull. They were a strong and mighty warlike tribal association that eventually got pushed out of their homeland by the Euroz and other humanoids. The reason why the Flanae chose to ally & fight with the Oeridians was they were more honorable in treating with them, whereas the Flanae suffered horribly under Sulois dominion.
Have you read Gozar!'s post before & what do you think are the origins of the Oeridians? I made my case, now make yours. I'd love to see what you guys & gals come up with on this topic if it interests you.
Here is a quote from the blog:
We know from the history of Eastern Oerik that the Oeridian peoples came to the Flannaes from the west, sweeping across the eastern portion of the continent, pushing aside Suloise and Flannish peoples alike to dominate the region politically (The Great Kingdom), linguistically (Common Tongue), and even calendrically (C.Y.). It's possible that their dominance even gave name to the continent (Oerik) and the planet (Oerth) of which the Flannaes are a part. But we don't really know for certain where these fierce peoples came from.
Figure 1 as presented by Gozar! below.
If we take the map of migrations in the Gazetteer as accurate, see figure 1, it would appear that the Oerid people originated in the environs of the Dry Steppes. However, the text describes the Dry Steppes as the once-fertile homeland of the Bakluni peoples, rendered inhospitable by the Invoked Devastation. No mention is made that Oeridians ever occupied this area.
From Greyhawk BoxSet figure 2 as listed below.
Perhaps addressing this very concern, the map of migrations in 1983's A Guide to the World of Greyhawk moves the label of the Oeridian migratory arrow to indicate that maybe the Oeridians came not from the Dry Steppes, but from Ull [see figure 2]. The Guide describes the area as being the homeland of "a strong tribal clan of Paynim nomads." Again, no mention is made of the Oeridians ever having lived there.
It is conceivable that the Oeridians were completely uprooted from their "native" lands. But the question it raises is why wouldn't the cataloguer who compiled the Guide and Gazetteer--who betrays an Oeridi-centric worldview elsewhere in the tomes--have mentioned the significance of these lands to the Oeridian people when the map indicates that the two are inextricably linked?
To further obfuscate the matter, the Old Oeridian language is described as:
"A younger language, totally free of outside influences until a few centuries ago. As a result, its linguistic components are unique and translation into any language except Common is all but impossible." (p. 8, Gygax 1980)
To further obfuscate the matter, the Old Oeridian language is described as:
"A younger language, totally free of outside influences until a few centuries ago. As a result, its linguistic components are unique and translation into any language except Common is all but impossible." (p. 8, Gygax 1980)
Depending on version (80 GH Folio or 83 Greyhawk Box set) Ull is either 800,000 sq miles or 90,000 sq Leagues - either way it is a vast area easy could house the combined tribes of the Oeridians. If you look at the migration maps above the Flan dominated only small regions - they are portrayed in both sources as 'Hunters (& gathers)' who were not particularly warlike and their small and scattered groups made no appreciable civilizing efforts. So the Flan likely did not come into contact with the Oeridians until they migrated into Flanaess proper. The Sulois were even more distant with only the Bakluni even remotely close to their ancient homeland now called Ull. The Bakluni likely didn't move to the region nearby until around 964CY so their influence would've been non-existent till then.
Gozar!'s next theory is that they are space aliens - a huge leap in my humble opinion, sure it could be true but I doubt it. I am not troubled by his assertions I just find that they are based on faulty logic. They could be aliens from Space or from a portal where they and their Gods came into the world of Oerik. In any future campaign the Oeridians come from the former Oerid Vale which is now named Ull. They were a strong and mighty warlike tribal association that eventually got pushed out of their homeland by the Euroz and other humanoids. The reason why the Flanae chose to ally & fight with the Oeridians was they were more honorable in treating with them, whereas the Flanae suffered horribly under Sulois dominion.
Have you read Gozar!'s post before & what do you think are the origins of the Oeridians? I made my case, now make yours. I'd love to see what you guys & gals come up with on this topic if it interests you.
