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Post by Crimhthan The Great on May 13, 2018 20:36:03 GMT -5
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on May 14, 2018 3:34:03 GMT -5
Crimhthan The Great I read all the posts & even two linked related posts. Thanks for posting these links.
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Post by Mighty Darci on May 14, 2018 20:46:18 GMT -5
I like @chirinebakal, he is a sweet man.
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Post by True Black Raven on May 15, 2018 8:47:36 GMT -5
I like @chirinebakal , he is a sweet man. Yes, yes he is! Shame the other people involved with Professor Barker's legacy are not the same. |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2018 12:49:18 GMT -5
My little blog flagged me and told me about all of your very kind words. Thank you, everyone; it's a real tonic, right now. I'll keep trying.
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Post by True Black Raven on May 20, 2018 17:54:19 GMT -5
My little blog flagged me and told me about all of your very kind words. Thank you, everyone; it's a real tonic, right now. I'll keep trying. Have an Exalt @chirinebakal for all that you have done and all that you do! You are someone to ride the river with. |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2018 18:08:44 GMT -5
My little blog flagged me and told me about all of your very kind words. Thank you, everyone; it's a real tonic, right now. I'll keep trying. Have an Exalt @chirinebakal for all that you have done and all that you do! You are someone to ride the river with. Thank you again for your kind words. My gaming life has been pretty miserable for the past couple of years, with the last six months being particularly wretched. I've been getting kicked by people for what I do, what I like, and what I believe in; I have been told, in as many words, that I am not welcome in the modern gaming hobby. Yesterday was one of the worst days I've ever had in gaming, and I suspect it's meant the end of my connection with some very old friends and their game group. It's also meant that the FLGS is not getting sales from us; I passed on buying some some figures today, about $90 worth, because of this kind of thing. |
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Post by dilvish on May 20, 2018 18:42:12 GMT -5
Have an Exalt @chirinebakal for all that you have done and all that you do! You are someone to ride the river with. Thank you again for your kind words. My gaming life has been pretty miserable for the past couple of years, with the last six months being particularly wretched. I've been getting kicked by people for what I do, what I like, and what I believe in; I have been told, in as many words, that I am not welcome in the modern gaming hobby. Yesterday was one of the worst days I've ever had in gaming, and I suspect it's meant the end of my connection with some very old friends and their game group. It's also meant that the FLGS is not getting sales from us; I passed on buying some some figures today, about $90 worth, because of this kind of thing. @chirinebakal, just to let you know, one of the reasons that I joined here (one of the main reasons) is because you are here now and then. I am sorry if you have been getting the not welcome vibe, but you are in good company, I and I suspect a good many of us are not welcome in the modern gaming hobby. That modern stuff is not for me, I like the way I learned to game a long time ago. I am a long time reader of your blog and I lurk but don't belong to another place where you have a Q&A thread going. It is sad if something like this has ended old friendships, yet it has happened to me and others before. Isn't there room for all different types of games and styles of play? Why does there have to be a one note ONE TRUE WAY TM Monolithic way to play? I always thought variety was supposed to be the spice of life! I will give you an exalt too! I think you and robkuntz, have this in common, you are both like Diogenes wondering about with a lamp looking for an honest man, only to be repeatedly disappointed. |
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2018 21:41:55 GMT -5
@chirinebakal , just to let you know, one of the reasons that I joined here (one of the main reasons) is because you are here now and then. I am sorry if you have been getting the not welcome vibe, but you are in good company, I and I suspect a good many of us are not welcome in the modern gaming hobby. That modern stuff is not for me, I like the way I learned to game a long time ago. I am a long time reader of your blog and I lurk but don't belong to another place where you have a Q&A thread going. It is sad if something like this has ended old friendships, yet it has happened to me and others before. Isn't there room for all different types of games and styles of play? Why does there have to be a one note ONE TRUE WAY TM Monolithic way to play? I always thought variety was supposed to be the spice of life! I will give you an exalt too! I think you and robkuntz , have this in common, you are both like Diogenes wondering about with a lamp looking for an honest man, only to be repeatedly disappointed. Again, thank you for your kind words. I was first baffled some years ago when I first encountered the 'OSR' of that time, and got a very poor reaction to my descriptions of the way Gary, Dave, and Phil played in my time with them. I'm still surprised that the Q&A is still going on, with over 450,000 views across the two segments, and that my little blog still has people who read it. I'm still of the opinion that gaming is a bunch of friends sitting around a table laughing their fool heads off, and how we get to that state is kind of irrelevant. I would have thought that there was room for all sorts of game play, but I may be wrong about that, based on what I see, read, and experience. I do try to drop by here, every now and them, but I worry about being a waste of people's time; I am from the past, a place where we did things differently. If I can be of help, great, but if not I don't want to be wasting people's limited time and energy. |
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Post by Mighty Darci on May 20, 2018 22:13:01 GMT -5
@chirinebakal , just to let you know, one of the reasons that I joined here (one of the main reasons) is because you are here now and then. I am sorry if you have been getting the not welcome vibe, but you are in good company, I and I suspect a good many of us are not welcome in the modern gaming hobby. That modern stuff is not for me, I like the way I learned to game a long time ago. I am a long time reader of your blog and I lurk but don't belong to another place where you have a Q&A thread going. It is sad if something like this has ended old friendships, yet it has happened to me and others before. Isn't there room for all different types of games and styles of play? Why does there have to be a one note ONE TRUE WAY TM Monolithic way to play? I always thought variety was supposed to be the spice of life! I will give you an exalt too! I think you and robkuntz , have this in common, you are both like Diogenes wondering about with a lamp looking for an honest man, only to be repeatedly disappointed. Again, thank you for your kind words. I was first baffled some years ago when I first encountered the 'OSR' of that time, and got a very poor reaction to my descriptions of the way Gary, Dave, and Phil played in my time with them. I'm still surprised that the Q&A is still going on, with over 450,000 views across the two segments, and that my little blog still has people who read it. I'm still of the opinion that gaming is a bunch of friends sitting around a table laughing their fool heads off, and how we get to that state is kind of irrelevant. I would have thought that there was room for all sorts of game play, but I may be wrong about that, based on what I see, read, and experience. I do try to drop by here, every now and them, but I worry about being a waste of people's time; I am from the past, a place where we did things differently. If I can be of help, great, but if not I don't want to be wasting people's limited time and energy. No one in the main stream OSR or the anti-OSR wants to hear how Gary, Dave and Phil played bitd. It conflicts with the agenda of both groups. IIRC TPD posted a comment from the anti-OSR group that said that all the people who claim that Gary, Dave and Phil played a certain way (the way you and Rob and Gronan and Greg say they played) are just trying to discredit everything that they've (the anti-OSR group) done over the last 35 years. The OSR and the Anti-OSR mostly just argue about who is the most old school and who is responsible for the "revival" of interest in the old games. My take is that you can't discredit anything of value and their fear is that they know, what they've done is light on value. Those of us here (the majority here), we want to hear from you (and Rob and Gronan and Greg) about how they played. We agree that having a bunch of friends sitting around a table laughing their fool heads off is where we want to be and how we get to that state is kind of irrelevant, the important thing is getting there. You are never wasting time, least of all ours. In fact, you and the few like you that are left are the only ones that are not wasting our time ever. There are a few good people out there who are not wasting our time, but most people are nay sayers and they do waste our time. You @chirinebakal are always value added. I would bet that if you ask, the Admin here would give you your own forum down below no questions asked and with nothing expected. He does things like that, just look up and down the forum and a big chunk of the stuff here is because someone asked him for it. |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on May 20, 2018 22:38:11 GMT -5
Have an Exalt @chirinebakal for all that you have done and all that you do! You are someone to ride the river with. Thank you again for your kind words. My gaming life has been pretty miserable for the past couple of years, with the last six months being particularly wretched. I've been getting kicked by people for what I do, what I like, and what I believe in; I have been told, in as many words, that I am not welcome in the modern gaming hobby. Yesterday was one of the worst days I've ever had in gaming, and I suspect it's meant the end of my connection with some very old friends and their game group. It's also meant that the FLGS is not getting sales from us; I passed on buying some some figures today, about $90 worth, because of this kind of thing. That sucks @chirinebakal, I hope things will improve for you. Having lost my group based on a mix of allowing my personal frustration & my players unwillingness to play older versions of D&D instead of 5e or 3.5/PF D&D. We should be united as a gaming community. Maybe I am older than I feel, growing up in the comic & RPG community being a misfit outsider that we generally got a long. Oh well things change. |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on May 20, 2018 23:24:41 GMT -5
@chirinebakal , just to let you know, one of the reasons that I joined here (one of the main reasons) is because you are here now and then. I am sorry if you have been getting the not welcome vibe, but you are in good company, I and I suspect a good many of us are not welcome in the modern gaming hobby. That modern stuff is not for me, I like the way I learned to game a long time ago. I am a long time reader of your blog and I lurk but don't belong to another place where you have a Q&A thread going. It is sad if something like this has ended old friendships, yet it has happened to me and others before. Isn't there room for all different types of games and styles of play? Why does there have to be a one note ONE TRUE WAY TM Monolithic way to play? I always thought variety was supposed to be the spice of life! I will give you an exalt too! I think you and robkuntz , have this in common, you are both like Diogenes wondering about with a lamp looking for an honest man, only to be repeatedly disappointed. Again, thank you for your kind words. I was first baffled some years ago when I first encountered the 'OSR' of that time, and got a very poor reaction to my descriptions of the way Gary, Dave, and Phil played in my time with them. I'm still surprised that the Q&A is still going on, with over 450,000 views across the two segments, and that my little blog still has people who read it. I'm still of the opinion that gaming is a bunch of friends sitting around a table laughing their fool heads off, and how we get to that state is kind of irrelevant. I would have thought that there was room for all sorts of game play, but I may be wrong about that, based on what I see, read, and experience. I do try to drop by here, every now and them, but I worry about being a waste of people's time; I am from the past, a place where we did things differently. If I can be of help, great, but if not I don't want to be wasting people's limited time and energy. I would like to say I am surprised that OSR types would give you a poor reaction to how Gary, Dave & Phil played - considering how much they worship OD&D, B/X D&D and 1e AD&D. But with some of the attitudes I've seen in certain communities, it is less surprising, just sad. @chirinebakal do NOT worry about wasting OUR time; I've enjoyed your blog (what of it I've read that is) & look forward to your contributions here. Share how things were done so we (the younger generation) can better learn to improve our own skills & thus our games. Chirine Bakal don't worry you won't be wasting our time & energy.I look forward to your future posts. |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on May 20, 2018 23:28:15 GMT -5
Again, thank you for your kind words. I was first baffled some years ago when I first encountered the 'OSR' of that time, and got a very poor reaction to my descriptions of the way Gary, Dave, and Phil played in my time with them. I'm still surprised that the Q&A is still going on, with over 450,000 views across the two segments, and that my little blog still has people who read it. I'm still of the opinion that gaming is a bunch of friends sitting around a table laughing their fool heads off, and how we get to that state is kind of irrelevant. I would have thought that there was room for all sorts of game play, but I may be wrong about that, based on what I see, read, and experience. I do try to drop by here, every now and them, but I worry about being a waste of people's time; I am from the past, a place where we did things differently. If I can be of help, great, but if not I don't want to be wasting people's limited time and energy. No one in the main stream OSR or the anti-OSR wants to hear how Gary, Dave and Phil played bitd. It conflicts with the agenda of both groups. IIRC TPD posted a comment from the anti-OSR group that said that all the people who claim that Gary, Dave and Phil played a certain way (the way you and Rob and Gronan and Greg say they played) are just trying to discredit everything that they've (the anti-OSR group) done over the last 35 years. The OSR and the Anti-OSR mostly just argue about who is the most old school and who is responsible for the "revival" of interest in the old games. My take is that you can't discredit anything of value and their fear is that they know, what they've done is light on value. Those of us here (the majority here), we want to hear from you (and Rob and Gronan and Greg) about how they played. We agree that having a bunch of friends sitting around a table laughing their fool heads off is where we want to be and how we get to that state is kind of irrelevant, the important thing is getting there. You are never wasting time, least of all ours. In fact, you and the few like you that are left are the only ones that are not wasting our time ever. There are a few good people out there who are not wasting our time, but most people are nay sayers and they do waste our time. You @chirinebakal are always value added. I would bet that if you ask, the Admin here would give you your own forum down below no questions asked and with nothing expected. He does things like that, just look up and down the forum and a big chunk of the stuff here is because someone asked him for it. An exalt for Mighty Darci, you earned it as I couldn't say it better. |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on May 20, 2018 23:39:10 GMT -5
Welcome Sir Chirine of Kal! Being rejected by antiSantayanas is a badge of honor.
And I'm getting concerned about Mighty Darci. She's turning into a wise elder statesperson and violating all the clichés of "young and dumb."
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Post by robkuntz on May 21, 2018 6:40:21 GMT -5
What? Facts? Experienced based reporting? Different design views then and now? The philosophy of science and history in gaming? Openness to change and willingness to consider other's views in light of these previous information categories?
You see, once you side with any establishment view you become "grouped". The idea of "inclusiveness" is then promoted (and up front ascertained) by the strictures of said group. Historically this has been noted as "conformity" in whatever
ideological sphere that it manifests.
OD&D's initial philosophy was inclusive--whatever you, the individual, chose was fine and thus all avenues of thinking (thus design thinking) were promoted as equal and worthy, JUST AS THEY HAD BEEN IN WARGAMES.
Not any more. Join or be marginalized--it is actually a worse philosophy than what previously existed prior to OD&D! It is anti-creative, anti-design, and wholly dependent on a certain strain or "school" only. This all starts with the redaction of the initial Arnesonian philosophy for a rigid, non-inclsiveness, a standardized one which quotes itself but rarely recognizes others.
So is there any wonder why chirinebakal--and those like-minded--are cast aside? There are less true designers and design-thinkers out there these days as they have been replaced wholesale by ideologues.
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Post by Admin Pete on May 21, 2018 8:23:15 GMT -5
@chirinebakal, you are always welcome here and as other said, I believe it is impossible for you and those few like you who are still with us to ever in anyway waste our time. Share as much or as little as you feel like and if you want your own forum, you have only to ask, I have plenty they are not in short supply.  Quite frankly, if I personally had the time and you gave permission, I would copy all your answers from you Q&A over at the RPGsite to a forum here. You, Rob, Gronan, Greg and anyway else that is still around, I would gladly have you post as much as you want in your own forums here. And if you take questions, that is just gravy. I cannot imagine anyone having the hubris to treat you badly and respond negatively to what you have to say. I also am giving you an Exalt! |
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Post by Mighty Darci on May 21, 2018 12:48:02 GMT -5
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Post by Mighty Darci on May 21, 2018 12:54:57 GMT -5
Welcome Sir Chirine of Kal! Being rejected by antiSantayanas is a badge of honor. And I'm getting concerned about Mighty Darci. She's turning into a wise elder statesperson and violating all the clichés of "young and dumb." I'm concerned about you too Tzhett! What is this statesperson stuff, it's stateswoman, thank you very much! Elder?? I've got 70 years to go before you can call me elder! And wise, well if I'm the only woman in the room, then I guess that fits. |
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2018 13:39:36 GMT -5
So is there any wonder why chirinebakal--and those like-minded--are cast aside? There are less true designers and design-thinkers out there these days as they have been replaced wholesale by ideologues. The difference is you and Chirine got sad, I got cranky. The OSR is a creation of the closed-system model. Instead of opening the conceptual system back up, they are pouring over the text of rules trying to find an ur-game. And when told they are looking in the wrong direction, they close ranks and fire arrows, which is what most people do when shown they are wrong.
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Post by The Old Ref Himself on May 21, 2018 13:44:26 GMT -5
@chirinebakal you are preaching to the choir here, so we are hoping you don't get bored with us.
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Post by mormonyoyoman on May 21, 2018 14:14:33 GMT -5
I'm concerned about you too Tzhett! What is this statesperson stuff, it's stateswoman, thank you very much! Elder?? I've got 70 years to go before you can call me elder! And wise, well if I'm the only woman in the room, then I guess that fits. Hm, it would be possible to continue this humorous exchange in ironic fashion (otherwise known as "an argument") if 45 years of marriage and raising three daughters hadn't taught me the futility of it all. To quote Jonathan Harris: "The pain. The pain."  |
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Post by The Old Ref Himself on May 21, 2018 14:40:52 GMT -5
So is there any wonder why chirinebakal--and those like-minded--are cast aside? There are less true designers and design-thinkers out there these days as they have been replaced wholesale by ideologues. The difference is you and Chirine got sad, I got cranky. The OSR is a creation of the closed-system model. Instead of opening the conceptual system back up, they are pouring over the text of rules trying to find an ur-game. And when told they are looking in the wrong direction, they close ranks and fire arrows, which is what most people do when shown they are wrong.
Oh, but there is an ur-game. Each of us play the ur-game at our own table and each of us has an ur-game that differs from everyone else's ur-game. I believe that is the way it is supposed to be. The fallacy is not that there is an ur-game, the fallacy is the thinking that there is only one ur-game. |
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Post by robkuntz on May 21, 2018 15:11:17 GMT -5
So is there any wonder why chirinebakal--and those like-minded--are cast aside? There are less true designers and design-thinkers out there these days as they have been replaced wholesale by ideologues. The difference is you and Chirine got sad, I got cranky. The OSR is a creation of the closed-system model. Instead of opening the conceptual system back up, they are pouring over the text of rules trying to find an ur-game. And when told they are looking in the wrong direction, they close ranks and fire arrows, which is what most people do when shown they are wrong.
Nope, Way WRONG interpreation about me. I am VERY involved in leading and sustaining the charge against this change and have always been. I will not speak for Chirine. |
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2018 15:41:51 GMT -5
I won't put words in your mouth, sorry.
Me, I'm cranky and fed up.
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Post by robkuntz on May 21, 2018 16:33:00 GMT -5
I won't put words in your mouth, sorry. Me, I'm cranky and fed up. Then perhaps that long overdue review of DATG would help support Arneson's and our own ethic regarding those days? The more truth from all quarters the better, eh? Or as Gandalf encouraged the soldiers of Gondor as Minas Tirith was under siege: "Fight!" |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on May 21, 2018 17:48:06 GMT -5
This brings up a question, one which will display my ignorance and probably my discouragement.
Where could a review be placed that would reach the people who can and will make a difference? What might we say which can convince them? And if the first step is to get them to read the dang book - we're still talking about readers and publishers who, like the proverbial lazy creek, prefers the easy ways and the programmable games master.
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Post by robkuntz on May 21, 2018 17:55:40 GMT -5
This brings up a question, one which will display my ignorance and probably my discouragement. Where could a review be placed that would reach the people who can and will make a difference? What might we say which can convince them? And if the first step is to get them to read the dang book - we're still talking about readers and publishers who, like the proverbial lazy creek, prefers the easy ways and the programmable games master. Well it is a diffuse Hobby with many unconnected islands. There is no real one central source for disseminating reviews. Everyone has their own niche thus their own wants and needs for communities and preferred information. For max exposure, thus, I would stick with Goodreads and then link to it far and wide. |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on May 21, 2018 18:06:23 GMT -5
Thanks for the tip. And I apologize for my discouragement.
Been involved with this avocation since at least 1976, maybe earlier. Never a mover or shaker, my careers keeping me busy and my hobbies being too many. Just close enough to see the potential in this invention kinda squandered. Left wondering if rolegaming, like so many of the good things, is fated to be a missed opportunity for advancement of an art/science/skill. Another innovation in which long term gain is sacrificed for short term profits?
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Post by robkuntz on May 21, 2018 18:33:40 GMT -5
Thanks for the tip. And I apologize for my discouragement. Been involved with this avocation since at least 1976, maybe earlier. Never a mover or shaker, my careers keeping me busy and my hobbies being too many. Just close enough to see the potential in this invention kinda squandered. Left wondering if rolegaming, like so many of the good things, is fated to be a missed opportunity for advancement of an art/science/skill. Another innovation in which long term gain is sacrificed for short term profits? No Prob. Now back on topic... |
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Post by ripx187 on May 22, 2018 18:03:40 GMT -5
This thread is stimulating as all get out. Thanks guys!
There are more gaming "archeologists" out there than their used to be, and the OSR is clearly a dead end. The reading lists aren't after the publishing of Dungeons & Dragons, but prior to it. I came here interested in WHERE these weird rules came from, and wanting insight on mechanics which were hinted at but not explored, but there is definately much more to it than that. I now have this new game in my head, one that sounds much better than the one that I came here exploring. One that isn't purchased with money, but with time and experience.
I look forward to more postings here  |
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