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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Feb 15, 2024 10:51:59 GMT -5
Oh wow! I gotta dig into this...
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 15, 2024 11:32:58 GMT -5
Wow, thank you! Did not know that was possible.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 15, 2024 11:34:15 GMT -5
May I share your post over on MeWe?
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Post by captainjapan on Feb 15, 2024 11:53:55 GMT -5
The Perilous Dreamer said: Please, feel free to share this information wherever you think it will receive the most notice. -Cheers
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 15, 2024 12:19:23 GMT -5
The Perilous Dreamer said: Please, feel free to share this information wherever you think it will receive the most notice. -Cheers Thank you!
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 15, 2024 18:39:35 GMT -5
The Perilous Dreamer said: Please, feel free to share this information wherever you think it will receive the most notice. -Cheers I shared it on MeWe and on FB. I have groups on both and a timeline.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 16, 2024 21:09:36 GMT -5
Submitted for your consideration, a PDF copy of the complete court filings of civil case 4-79-109 David L. Arneson vs. Gary Gygax and TSR Hobbies, Inc including letters, testimony, and evidentiary documents obtained freely from the National Archives Office at Chicago. The linked PDF's contain over 900 pages, a portion of which can also be viewed by visiting their website at: catalog.archives.gov/id/200185170ws.onehub.com/folders/uh3vxwq1The link will expire within 30 days of this posting after which time, anyone desiring access to these files should contact the National Archives: National Archives at Chicago 7358 South Pulaski Road Chicago, IL 60629 773-948-9001 chicago.archives@nara.gov And submit a request for the following: U.S. District Court, District of Minnesota, Fourth Division Civ. No. 4-79-109 (Civ. means Civil case) David L. ARNESON, Plaintiff, v. Gary GYGAX, and TSR Hobbies, Inc., a corporation, Defendant Transfer number: 021-02-0289, Box: 7, Location: 217388-392 box 236, PT-000-2014-0022, D-005-2-013-03-001 Deft's Exhibits 6 to 15 Happy Reading! I see the links have changed, was there a problem with having it on your google drive? Did google take it down?
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 16, 2024 23:14:22 GMT -5
Oh and captainjapan, have you read any of the document yet? As soon as a few people have had a chance to look at it, I would like to start a discussion. I will ask the Admin to make an area for it.
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Post by captainjapan on Feb 17, 2024 1:50:48 GMT -5
No, Google didn't remove it.
The new link is direct to where I originally obtained the court filings. It was set up by the National Archive specifically so that I could download them. I'm sorry if that broke anyone's links. I tried to make the switch as soon as possible. Plus, now you have the option of retrieving either the condensed or the uncondensed PDF. Understand, however, that there is no textual difference between them.
I hope you DO start a discussion. I look forward to hearing about anything that you found interesting, but I have not read the case.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 17, 2024 7:06:09 GMT -5
No, Google didn't remove it. The new link is direct to where I originally obtained the court filings. It was set up by the National Archive specifically so that I could download them. I'm sorry if that broke anyone's links. I tried to make the switch as soon as possible. Plus, now you have the option of retrieving either the condensed or the uncondensed PDF. Understand, however, that there is no textual difference between them. I hope you DO start a discussion. I look forward to hearing about anything that you found interesting, but I have not read the case. Some people are going to be really interested in what the legal documents and letters reveal, other in the interviews, one of which I have not seen before. What intrigues me the most is what appears to be draft rules with handwritten notes on some of them and other things that do not appear in OD&D. I welcome discussion on any of that, I know a few people have downloaded it and once people have had a chance to read some of it, I will ask the admin to create a place to hold the discussion.
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Post by simrion on Feb 17, 2024 18:27:55 GMT -5
Amazing this was all going on the year I discovered the game.
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Post by captainjapan on Feb 17, 2024 20:33:44 GMT -5
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 17, 2024 23:37:55 GMT -5
For anyone unaware, Jon Peterson is reprinting the entire first draft of D&D for the 50th Anniversary ' Making of Original Dungeons & Dragons' book that's coming out in a few months. It's also about 500pgs. Jon owns most of the letters that Arneson sent to Gygax and vice versa, from the time that the rules were first being written. Here are some screenshots of the interior of the book, that accompanied one of WOTC's promotional videos: SNIP The first draft, that is even better than I hoped. It is going to be $100 plus tax and shipping. Too rich for my fixed income. Hope I can figure out someway to get my hands on it. Hope it is not just a limited edition collectors item and I hope that Jon Peterson can reign in his anti-Arneson bias. I would love to do a line by line comparison of the draft to what was published. I did that a couple of years or so ago on my blog, I went through it line by line.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Feb 18, 2024 9:09:51 GMT -5
For anyone unaware, Jon Peterson is reprinting the entire first draft of D&D for the 50th Anniversary ' Making of Original Dungeons & Dragons' book that's coming out in a few months. It's also about 500pgs. Jon owns most of the letters that Arneson sent to Gygax and vice versa, from the time that the rules were first being written. Here are some screenshots of the interior of the book, that accompanied one of WOTC's promotional videos: SNIP The first draft, that is even better than I hoped. It is going to be $100 plus tax and shipping. Too rich for my fixed income. Hope I can figure out someway to get my hands on it. Hope it is not just a limited edition collectors item and I hope that Jon Peterson can reign in his anti-Arneson bias. I would love to do a line by line comparison of the draft to what was published. I did that a couple of years or so ago on my blog, I went through it line by line. I'm all over this as long as they don't do such a limited print run that you can't hardly find a copy during the initial release because people have paid insider or early bird prices to ensure they get theirs and no one else has a chance.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 18, 2024 14:04:20 GMT -5
The first draft, that is even better than I hoped. It is going to be $100 plus tax and shipping. Too rich for my fixed income. Hope I can figure out someway to get my hands on it. Hope it is not just a limited edition collectors item and I hope that Jon Peterson can reign in his anti-Arneson bias. I would love to do a line by line comparison of the draft to what was published. I did that a couple of years or so ago on my blog, I went through it line by line. I'm all over this as long as they don't do such a limited print run that you can't hardly find a copy during the initial release because people have paid insider or early bird prices to ensure they get theirs and no one else has a chance. Yeah, I am really hoping it is around long enough that I can figure out some way to get it.
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Post by Admin Pete on Feb 19, 2024 0:44:05 GMT -5
captainjapan, have an exalt from me as well, thank you for sharing this with all of us.
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Post by True Black Raven on Feb 29, 2024 12:25:18 GMT -5
Submitted for your consideration, a PDF copy of the complete court filings of civil case 4-79-109 David L. Arneson vs. Gary Gygax and TSR Hobbies, Inc including letters, testimony, and evidentiary documents obtained freely from the National Archives Office at Chicago. The linked PDF's contain over 900 pages, a portion of which can also be viewed by visiting their website at: catalog.archives.gov/id/200185170ws.onehub.com/folders/uh3vxwq1The link will expire within 30 days of this posting after which time, anyone desiring access to these files should contact the National Archives: National Archives at Chicago 7358 South Pulaski Road Chicago, IL 60629 773-948-9001 chicago.archives@nara.gov And submit a request for the following: U.S. District Court, District of Minnesota, Fourth Division Civ. No. 4-79-109 (Civ. means Civil case) David L. ARNESON, Plaintiff, v. Gary GYGAX, and TSR Hobbies, Inc., a corporation, Defendant Transfer number: 021-02-0289, Box: 7, Location: 217388-392 box 236, PT-000-2014-0022, D-005-2-013-03-001 Deft's Exhibits 6 to 15 Happy Reading! As of today the only file from any linked site is a censored 854 page file that removes all of the interesting part (the draft rules and Arneson's comments) so I hope anyone that wanted the uncensored complete file has already downloaded it. I saw this information over on FB just a few seconds ago.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 29, 2024 12:55:58 GMT -5
As of today the only file from any linked site is a censored 854 page file that removes all of the interesting part (the draft rules and Arneson's comments) so I hope anyone that wanted the uncensored complete file has already downloaded it. I saw this information over on FB just a few seconds ago. Beat me to it!
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Post by captainjapan on Mar 1, 2024 12:19:52 GMT -5
I was trying to update the thread, but it looks like it got deleted. The part you're asking for is still in the file. It's just been reorganized.
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Post by Admin Pete on Mar 1, 2024 12:33:25 GMT -5
I was trying to update the thread, but it looks like it got deleted. The part you're asking for is still in the file. It's just been reorganized. According to the security log you must have accidentally deleted it. Curious as to how everything is still there, when the file has over 50 pages less in the file. I will have to look at it. Fortunately the info is all there since your post was quoted.
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Post by Admin Pete on Mar 1, 2024 12:43:44 GMT -5
I was trying to update the thread, but it looks like it got deleted. The part you're asking for is still in the file. It's just been reorganized. OK, I scanned through the new file and it looks like most of the interesting stuff now appears later in the document. The file went from 912 pages to 854 pages, so it will take a lot of work to figure out what has been removed and now it will be hard to reference things in discussion using even absolute pdf page numbers. Shame this was done. But I think most of us have the 912 page document, which is what we will continue to use for the discussion.
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ronaldsf
Wanderer
YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@TheRulesLawyerRPG
Posts: 5
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Post by ronaldsf on Mar 2, 2024 13:47:41 GMT -5
Greetings!
I'm a lawyer and YouTube creator, "The Rules Lawyer." I mostly play modern systems, only because I joined TTRPGs relatively late in my life in 2010, playing Pathfinder 1e and 2e and D&D 5e. But I've always had a fascination about old-school D&D, having grown up in the 80s with my Red Box and 1e AD&D manuals. I have run a couple of sessions using Swords & Wizardry and one of AD&D, all with 12-19 year olds. Recently did a video on OD&D sharing my "new school" impressions of the original 1974 rules: it is titled "TOP 10 things in 1974's Original D&D that SHOCK modern players!" on YouTube.
I plan to do at least two videos on what can be gleaned from it: the early draft of D&D, and the court documents themselves.
I am perusing the forum that you guys have set up here and look forward to participating in the discussions!
One question: I was considering giving credit to this forum and/or pointing people here, if people want to discuss the docs further. But I see that you all are referring to the page numbers from the less-accessible, 900+ page version. If it doesn't make sense for me to point people here, let me know. Since the only discrepancy between the two versions seems to be the (still sold by WOTC) OD&D books, perhaps the version to be used for broader discussion should refer to the page numbers of the one currently available on the National Archive? (Btw I also plan to maintain my own copy of the 854-page version in the cloud for public access, since apparently the Archive's link only lasts 30 days.)
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Post by El Borak on Mar 2, 2024 18:51:01 GMT -5
Greetings! I'm a lawyer and YouTube creator, "The Rules Lawyer." I mostly play modern systems, only because I joined TTRPGs relatively late in my life in 2010, playing Pathfinder 1e and 2e and D&D 5e. But I've always had a fascination about old-school D&D, having grown up in the 80s with my Red Box and 1e AD&D manuals. I have run a couple of sessions using Swords & Wizardry and one of AD&D, all with 12-19 year olds. Recently did a video on OD&D sharing my "new school" impressions of the original 1974 rules: it is titled "TOP 10 things in 1974's Original D&D that SHOCK modern players!" on YouTube. I plan to do at least two videos on what can be gleaned from it: the early draft of D&D, and the court documents themselves. I am perusing the forum that you guys have set up here and look forward to participating in the discussions! One question: I was considering giving credit to this forum and/or pointing people here, if people want to discuss the docs further. But I see that you all are referring to the page numbers from the less-accessible, 900+ page version. If it doesn't make sense for me to point people here, let me know. Since the only discrepancy between the two versions seems to be the (still sold by WOTC) OD&D books, perhaps the version to be used for broader discussion should refer to the page numbers of the one currently available on the National Archive? (Btw I also plan to maintain my own copy of the 854-page version in the cloud for public access, since apparently the Archive's link only lasts 30 days.) I suppose it depends on what parts you want to discuss, for those that want to discuss the early draft, the 900+ page document is the one that has those pages. If you are going to maintain a version for public access why not use the complete document. Here is the link to his video. I suggest that you put the link to your Youtube channel in your signature too. BTW it is 20 things not 10 for those who want to go watch it. ronaldsf, as PD says, the foundational reading for D&D is very important to understanding the original game.
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ronaldsf
Wanderer
YouTube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@TheRulesLawyerRPG
Posts: 5
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Post by ronaldsf on Mar 4, 2024 0:12:36 GMT -5
By the early draft, I assume you mean the 1973 draft, which actually appears at the end of the 854-page document as well. That is the one I intend to share publicly because it's what's currently on the National Archive. (Don't want to get into any trouble by including the scans of the original final OD&D books at the end of the 900+ page doc, which I assume WOTC might go after since they're still selling OD&D.)
(I can't seem to find a way to add a signature to my posts btw. I added my YouTube channel to my "Social" section in my Profile though.)
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Mar 4, 2024 1:29:49 GMT -5
By the early draft, I assume you mean the 1973 draft, which actually appears at the end of the 854-page document as well. That is the one I intend to share publicly because it's what's currently on the National Archive. (Don't want to get into any trouble by including the scans of the original final OD&D books at the end of the 900+ page doc, which I assume WOTC might go after since they're still selling OD&D.) (I can't seem to find a way to add a signature to my posts btw. I added my YouTube channel to my "Social" section in my Profile though.) Go to profile, then click on edit profile, then click on Personal. At the bottom of that tab you will find the Signature block. The easiest way to create links is to do it in a thread in a post in BBCode, then copy paste to your signature and save.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Mar 4, 2024 1:38:30 GMT -5
By the early draft, I assume you mean the 1973 draft, which actually appears at the end of the 854-page document as well. That is the one I intend to share publicly because it's what's currently on the National Archive. (Don't want to get into any trouble by including the scans of the original final OD&D books at the end of the 900+ page doc, which I assume WOTC might go after since they're still selling OD&D.) (I can't seem to find a way to add a signature to my posts btw. I added my YouTube channel to my "Social" section in my Profile though.) I had not been to the end of the document yet, still at the beginning of it looking over the drafts. I see that the end of the file has either the 4th or 5th print of OD&D. Technically they are selling fake OD&D if you are talking about the pdfs over on DriveThruRPG. Those files have had references to CHAINMAIL and to Outdoor Survival removed in the 2013 censored version, which builds off the 6th print which was also censored of the Tolkien references. The last legit version of OD&D was the 5th print.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Mar 4, 2024 3:00:55 GMT -5
By the early draft, I assume you mean the 1973 draft, which actually appears at the end of the 854-page document as well. That is the one I intend to share publicly because it's what's currently on the National Archive. (Don't want to get into any trouble by including the scans of the original final OD&D books at the end of the 900+ page doc, which I assume WOTC might go after since they're still selling OD&D.) (I can't seem to find a way to add a signature to my posts btw. I added my YouTube channel to my "Social" section in my Profile though.) I had not been to the end of the document yet, still at the beginning of it looking over the drafts. I see that the end of the file has either the 4th or 5th print of OD&D. Technically they are selling fake OD&D if you are talking about the pdfs over on DriveThruRPG. Those files have had references to CHAINMAIL and to Outdoor Survival removed in the 2013 censored version, which builds off the 6th print which was also censored of the Tolkien references. The last legit version of OD&D was the 5th print. In addition to hard copies, I bought the 6th print pdf when it was for sale on DriveThruRPG years and years ago, then when the 2013 pdf was released on DriveThruRPG. To the best of my knowledge anyone on here that would be interested in this file own the legal pdfs and quite a few of us own hard copies.
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Post by Jakob Grimm on Mar 13, 2024 23:06:03 GMT -5
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Mar 16, 2024 19:29:00 GMT -5
Greetings! I'm a lawyer and YouTube creator, "The Rules Lawyer." I mostly play modern systems, only because I joined TTRPGs relatively late in my life in 2010, playing Pathfinder 1e and 2e and D&D 5e. But I've always had a fascination about old-school D&D, having grown up in the 80s with my Red Box and 1e AD&D manuals. I have run a couple of sessions using Swords & Wizardry and one of AD&D, all with 12-19 year olds. Recently did a video on OD&D sharing my "new school" impressions of the original 1974 rules: it is titled "TOP 10 things in 1974's Original D&D that SHOCK modern players!" on YouTube. I plan to do at least two videos on what can be gleaned from it: the early draft of D&D, and the court documents themselves. I am perusing the forum that you guys have set up here and look forward to participating in the discussions! One question: I was considering giving credit to this forum and/or pointing people here, if people want to discuss the docs further. But I see that you all are referring to the page numbers from the less-accessible, 900+ page version. If it doesn't make sense for me to point people here, let me know. Since the only discrepancy between the two versions seems to be the (still sold by WOTC) OD&D books, perhaps the version to be used for broader discussion should refer to the page numbers of the one currently available on the National Archive? (Btw I also plan to maintain my own copy of the 854-page version in the cloud for public access, since apparently the Archive's link only lasts 30 days.) Awesome! I've watched many of your videos. Welcome to the forums and I look forward to whatever discussion you can jump into.
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Post by alaharon123 on Apr 7, 2024 14:49:37 GMT -5
For those who got the 912 page version of the document, what you got that is not in the 854 page version is a 5th printing version of the LBBs. This is the version that is before the 6th printing that removed Hobbits and other Tolkien stuff, but after the printings that came with errata. It incorporated (somewhat sloppily) the corrections sheet. Plus some other changes, such as the addition of the phrases "for purposes of gaining experience points only", "of 7th level and greater" (in reference to Clerics being required to be Lawful or Chaotic), and at least one other (that I can't remember) little-known minor but possibly significant change that has been included in all printings since.
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