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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Oct 22, 2022 22:13:20 GMT -5
No, I don't but I feel like he is one of us. The last post is ten years old. Hm. Maybe ome of us can reach out. He might still be around but not blogging. In the blog posts comments section, there are a lot of spam, so I would imagine he has not checked it for quite a while. Wish I knew who he was and where he hangs out. Probably a DF member, but no way to know if he is active there. |
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Post by Crador on Oct 24, 2022 23:46:05 GMT -5
These are great and very informative. Thanks TPD! |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Oct 27, 2022 18:24:15 GMT -5
In the 3rd blog post he considers several questions, one of which is "Why do I think others don’t share my appreciation of the LBB?" That is a good question and the answer is not quite as simple as he makes it IMO.
He says:
Rudimentary form, IMO that is one of OD&D greatest strengths, because it does not present some hard and fast mold that forever restricts the imagination of future users, along with the well stated "permission" for house rules and to make the game your own. I also see nothing wrong with the organization. The clones have their own organization, but I fail to see how they are better, different but not better.
Let me just state that if you need permission from someone to house rule a game you are playing, any game, then you have lost the most precious quality of childhood and are in danger of a very unfun adult life IMO.
If people are put off by the "vagueness and ambiguity" that crops up here and there, then yes you have gone beyond being in danger of a very unfun adult life IMO. That "vagueness and ambiguity" is a feature not a bug. If you can't handle that, then play other games and when you either grow up and regain some of the best qualities of childhood, come back and try OD&D again.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Oct 27, 2022 18:36:57 GMT -5
He says:
While OD&D is not super easy to learn from scratch without an instructor, it is not impossible (though difficult) as there are those who have done it.
There are two cases - Arneson created the game engine (yes, he had influences such as David Wesely) and he showed it to Gygax. Gygax and Kuntz, wrote down everything they could remember from that first game and they had the notes that Arneson gave them, Gygax still had to get Arneson to show him more about how things worked so that he could run it.
My friend who brought the game to college got the game as a high school senior in 1974-1975 and taught himself and refereed for his friends. In Sept of 1974 he brought the game to college and after playing the first game, I wanted to referee and I think I could have, but he wanted a few games to see if I was serious and then I started refereeing. At this point I don't remember if he had done a bit of wargaming or not. But I do know that he did not have anyone who had played before, show him the way. After college he joined the army and ended up taking some tests and having the highest scores since the early 1950s, so he was very intelligent and he also had an eidetic memory.
I think there are quite a few people who could work it out on their own, but having access to Holmes Basic D&D would be a big help.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Oct 27, 2022 18:49:54 GMT -5
I think what is needed is the entire text of pre "Collector's Edition" D&D, (I put that in quotes because at that point the text had been censored and it was a falsehood, that that was the collectors edition) and add some examples and explanation, but not too much. Keep the "vagueness and ambiguity," but acknowledge it as a deliberate design choice and that each table should interpret it to suit themselves as uniformity between tables is neither desirable nor beneficial to the hobby. Correct the error of calling the "Alternate Combat system" any thing other than the Primary system. Make it clear that Chainmail is for mass battles and for alternate viewpoints of some concepts.
Further at the end, make it clear that there will be rules supplements coming and they are optional in their entirety and you can use everything from none of that content to as much of it as you want.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Oct 27, 2022 19:04:08 GMT -5
He goes on to say:
This is important, the original game concept with the unlimited freedom that was built into it was lost as the supplemental rules went from being completely optional to a "mandatory" part of the rule-set. Both lines Holmes Basic-B/X- BECMI-RC and AD&D through 5E and soon to be virtual (One D&D aka 6E) D&D all without exception lost some to almost all of the freedom implicit in the original rules. The game devolved from open-ended to a big list of ways each character was to be restricted, all under the completely false narrative of "giving" the players options. Let's be clear hear, you do not have options if things are not optional. The rules in (for example) 3E to 5E are not optional and players do not see them as optional.
The original game was indeed an "Open Ended Original Edition Old School Fantasy Adventure Sandbox Role Playing Game" or OEOEFASRPG. Every step along the way since then was stripping this away. The sandbox aspect that was a feature of the original rules has been gutted from the rules early on as reliance on published adventure modules was pushed. Yes, you can still design your own adventures, but one that is given lip service by WotC and two those adventures have been cast into the mold of the script that must be followed and the whole sandbox paradigm is gone. Once you rely on the railroaded, scripted, pre-written, novelized story game model the open-ended feature is gone. With these things stripped away the Old School part is also stripped away and the original rules are buried under miles of dross. It becomes very difficult to see where the real Fantasy Adventure RPG has gone.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Oct 27, 2022 19:27:28 GMT -5
He says:
That is IMO mostly true, however, IMO the amount work behind the scenes is bit exaggerated. I will add that the amount of work is much less and the ab-libbing (improvisation) is much easier if you have had a rich childhood with fairy tales, mythology, myths and legends and folk tales, etc. that were read and told to you by your parents and that your read on your own as a big introduction to reading on your own. And then as you got older you had access to some of the best fantasy, sword and sorcery and adventure literature, etc. If you have the basic literacy that any adult in today's world ought to have, then these things are not that difficult, but if you have been deprived of some of the greatest pleasures of childhood, then yes, you will struggle.
But let's dispense with one of the biggest lies out there that is preached by many. That lie is that you have to be a genius to play like Arneson did, like Gygax did. It is not true! Average intelligence with an unstunted imagination and a bit of background knowledge of our culture is really all you need. Sadly many have had their imaginations figuratively beaten out of them well before the end of childhood and too many lack exposure to the cultural touchstones of fairy tales, mythology, myths and legends and folk tales, etc. But that is not an intelligence problem, it is a modern culture problem where our children are not exposed to the cultural touchstones that used to be a standard part of childhood in all cultures around the world.
And let's be really clear, the vast majority of people are in the range that we call Average Intelligence. Does being smarter than that help, well IMO only if you have had that rich childhood I mentioned above. I have yet to run into anyone that is not smart enough to play D&D. Too lacking in imagination and/or too decision challenged to play, but neither of those things had to do with their intelligence.
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Post by hengest on Oct 27, 2022 20:59:06 GMT -5
The notion that you have to be a genius to play open-ended is pretty clearly false. Why? Anyone can make stuff up. And if you have to be a genius to make a campaign, then why were all these geniuses writing product for TSR when they probably could have made more money doing some other genius activity?
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Oct 29, 2022 9:57:22 GMT -5
I soon discovered the differences between my Red box and AD&D ... those cool kids called it kiddie D&D, but while I played in any game I had the opportunity to, I still hung on to my beloved Red box and eventually bought the Blue box, and then the Green one, and so forth. I never actually owned an AD&D book until my old DM bought me one well into the 90s. This is one of the worst disservices to the hobby. The assertion that Basic D&D (and by extension, OD&D) is "less than" AD&D or the current version of D&D or even some other game system is simply absurd. There should be a range of rules complexity and variety in game systems because everyone does have different tastes BUT less rules by no means less fun or less satisfaction. My gateway to D&D was through a collection of AD&D manuals and the Holmes Basic boxed set. I was hooked immediately but what really scratched the itch for me was Moldvay Basic set, the first of the B/X series. Everything about it was just captivating including simple stuff like the art selection and the font used throughout the book. I never owned an OD&D set back in the day and I still don't; I will someday. I do own Delving Deeper and it definitely rocks! I will buy the annotated v5 and I'm really considering taking the pdf and getting it printed at full size with a spiral binding. The digest sized book is great, but these old, aging eyes don't see like they used to in my youth. I have picked up some other retroclones, neoclones, and old school style games as well. I keep coming back to Delving Deeper. I went off the rails a bit but the point I was going to make is that I would argue that less rules and more imagination can accomplish anything that a game with a rule for every situation can and often do it better. |
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Post by hengest on Oct 29, 2022 10:39:01 GMT -5
But let's dispense with one of the biggest lies out there that is preached by many. That lie is that you have to be a genius to play like Arneson did, like Gygax did. It is not true! Average intelligence with an unstunted imagination and a bit of background knowledge of our culture is really all you need. Sadly many have had their imaginations figuratively beaten out of them well before the end of childhood and too many lack exposure to the cultural touchstones of fairy tales, mythology, myths and legends and folk tales, etc. But that is not an intelligence problem, it is a modern culture problem where our children are not exposed to the cultural touchstones that used to be a standard part of childhood in all cultures around the world. I think sometimes this might be due to some understandable ignorance. Think of how magical any skill looks if you don't have it and someone else has developed it to a high degree. Playing an instrument, electronics repair, whatever. Probably there are people who hear how DA and GG played and it sounds all but impossible to them, so they assume those guys were geniuses and that only a genius can do that. They don't see it in the way that is common on this forum, that with a skeleton of a system, some cultural baggage, imagination, and skill for making it work at the table, a normal person could play in much the same way. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Oct 29, 2022 11:00:11 GMT -5
The notion that you have to be a genius to play open-ended is pretty clearly false. Why? Anyone can make stuff up. And if you have to be a genius to make a campaign, then why were all these geniuses writing product for TSR when they probably could have made more money doing some other genius activity? What a great point, thank you! I really have no time for those who preach that you just can't referee like Arneson. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Oct 29, 2022 11:04:36 GMT -5
But let's dispense with one of the biggest lies out there that is preached by many. That lie is that you have to be a genius to play like Arneson did, like Gygax did. It is not true! Average intelligence with an unstunted imagination and a bit of background knowledge of our culture is really all you need. Sadly many have had their imaginations figuratively beaten out of them well before the end of childhood and too many lack exposure to the cultural touchstones of fairy tales, mythology, myths and legends and folk tales, etc. But that is not an intelligence problem, it is a modern culture problem where our children are not exposed to the cultural touchstones that used to be a standard part of childhood in all cultures around the world. I think sometimes this might be due to some understandable ignorance. Think of how magical any skill looks if you don't have it and someone else has developed it to a high degree. Playing an instrument, electronics repair, whatever. Probably there are people who hear how DA and GG played and it sounds all but impossible to them, so they assume those guys were geniuses and that only a genius can do that. They don't see it in the way that is common on this forum, that with a skeleton of a system, some cultural baggage, imagination, and skill for making it work at the table, a normal person could play in much the same way. I think the biggest impediment these days is the current anti-imagination culture that is pushed by the main stream. The idea that children are to be taught to be passive consumers instead of active creators. |
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Post by shooter on Oct 29, 2022 12:08:12 GMT -5
Keep it going, this is a great look at that blog series.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Oct 29, 2022 12:26:12 GMT -5
I think sometimes this might be due to some understandable ignorance. Think of how magical any skill looks if you don't have it and someone else has developed it to a high degree. Playing an instrument, electronics repair, whatever. Probably there are people who hear how DA and GG played and it sounds all but impossible to them, so they assume those guys were geniuses and that only a genius can do that. They don't see it in the way that is common on this forum, that with a skeleton of a system, some cultural baggage, imagination, and skill for making it work at the table, a normal person could play in much the same way. I think the biggest impediment these days is the current anti-imagination culture that is pushed by the main stream. The idea that children are to be taught to be passive consumers instead of active creators. YES! On a related note, that's why books will always be superior to films in my opinion. When you read you fill in the gaps (visual representations of people and places) with your imagination, so your perception is "perfect" because it comes from you. When you are watching a film, you are watching a second hand imagining of the story in the director's vision rather than the original storyteller's vision. Don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean all films are crap. I enjoy many films. I'm just pointing out why I prefer the book under the pretext I have the time to read it. If time constraints are a concern, then many films get it right (to a certain degree or another). |
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Post by shooter on Oct 29, 2022 12:38:37 GMT -5
I think the biggest impediment these days is the current anti-imagination culture that is pushed by the main stream. The idea that children are to be taught to be passive consumers instead of active creators. YES! On a related note, that's why books will always be superior to films in my opinion. When you read you fill in the gaps (visual representations of people and places) with your imagination, so your perception is "perfect" because it comes from you. When you are watching a film, you are watching a second hand imagining of the story in the director's vision rather than the original storyteller's vision. Don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean all films are crap. I enjoy many films. I'm just pointing out why I prefer the book under the pretext I have the time to read it. If time constraints are a concern, then many films get it right (to a certain degree or another). That is a great point. Someone, not sure who, said there no difference between a man who can't read and one who won't read. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Oct 29, 2022 12:40:28 GMT -5
I think the biggest impediment these days is the current anti-imagination culture that is pushed by the main stream. The idea that children are to be taught to be passive consumers instead of active creators. YES! On a related note, that's why books will always be superior to films in my opinion. When you read you fill in the gaps (visual representations of people and places) with your imagination, so your perception is "perfect" because it comes from you. When you are watching a film, you are watching a second hand imagining of the story in the director's vision rather than the original storyteller's vision. Don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean all films are crap. I enjoy many films. I'm just pointing out why I prefer the book under the pretext I have the time to read it. If time constraints are a concern, then many films get it right (to a certain degree or another). I agree completely with you on this. Books are better than films IMO too! |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Oct 29, 2022 12:41:08 GMT -5
YES! On a related note, that's why books will always be superior to films in my opinion. When you read you fill in the gaps (visual representations of people and places) with your imagination, so your perception is "perfect" because it comes from you. When you are watching a film, you are watching a second hand imagining of the story in the director's vision rather than the original storyteller's vision. Don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean all films are crap. I enjoy many films. I'm just pointing out why I prefer the book under the pretext I have the time to read it. If time constraints are a concern, then many films get it right (to a certain degree or another). That is a great point. Someone, not sure who, said there no difference between a man who can't read and one who won't read. I think I have seen that quote before, but I don't remember the source of it either. |
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Oct 29, 2022 12:42:52 GMT -5
YES! On a related note, that's why books will always be superior to films in my opinion. When you read you fill in the gaps (visual representations of people and places) with your imagination, so your perception is "perfect" because it comes from you. When you are watching a film, you are watching a second hand imagining of the story in the director's vision rather than the original storyteller's vision. Don't get me wrong, that doesn't mean all films are crap. I enjoy many films. I'm just pointing out why I prefer the book under the pretext I have the time to read it. If time constraints are a concern, then many films get it right (to a certain degree or another). That is a great point. Someone, not sure who, said there no difference between a man who can't read and one who won't read.That's a great quote! |
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Post by hengest on Oct 29, 2022 12:52:22 GMT -5
I think sometimes this might be due to some understandable ignorance. Think of how magical any skill looks if you don't have it and someone else has developed it to a high degree. Playing an instrument, electronics repair, whatever. Probably there are people who hear how DA and GG played and it sounds all but impossible to them, so they assume those guys were geniuses and that only a genius can do that. They don't see it in the way that is common on this forum, that with a skeleton of a system, some cultural baggage, imagination, and skill for making it work at the table, a normal person could play in much the same way. I think the biggest impediment these days is the current anti-imagination culture that is pushed by the main stream. The idea that children are to be taught to be passive consumers instead of active creators. This is true, and is extremely distressing. And I agree with you, too, The Semi-Retired Gamer. I also enjoy many films and recognize that there is room for imagination there, as well, I certainlythink for young people (especially) books and comic books and live roleplaying and storytelling are to be preferred. |
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Post by shooter on Nov 3, 2022 18:18:22 GMT -5
That is a great point. Someone, not sure who, said there no difference between a man who can't read and one who won't read.That's a great quote! Thanks! I read it a long time ago. |
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Post by Dark Tango on Nov 7, 2022 10:44:04 GMT -5
Hey PD, what is your take on the last (4th) blog post in this series?
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Post by Yaleric on Jan 25, 2024 18:38:13 GMT -5
I like this series, this is how I play. The lack of rules and the emphasis on creativity and imagination is why I play OD&D, or my version at least. I love that it lets you do it your way not someone else's way. Maybe it's the rebel in me but the more they say this is the way the game is played the less I want to play it that way. , do you have a blog or somewhere that you post about your game? |
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Post by Yaleric on Jan 25, 2024 18:50:50 GMT -5
Wow, that turned out to be an awesome, informative thread with some really great posts. Big thanks to The Perilous Dreamer and JMiskimen and others. |
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Post by Yaleric on Jan 25, 2024 18:53:02 GMT -5
Hey PD, what is your take on the last (4th) blog post in this series? , enquiring minds want to know. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jan 25, 2024 18:56:38 GMT -5
Hey PD, what is your take on the last (4th) blog post in this series? , enquiring minds want to know. I will endeavor to do that, it is the shortest one IIRC. |
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