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Post by Admin Pete on Jun 2, 2016 12:02:56 GMT -5
Why do you say that? How do you know? You haven't seen any details of what I'm attempting to do. Granted, if your observation is based on your feelings towards 3-4-5E / PF materials, I can understand where you're coming from. My suggestion is that this is going no where at the moment (that is we don't seem to be getting anywhere) and perhaps you should do at least a rough draft of your Adventurer-Explorer and that would stop all the assumptions and give us something concrete to work from. Then you could get specific comments about your ideas. As always the only true test of ideas is when they are play tested, so whether anyone likes the ideas or not that is the only thing that matters - is it fun to play for the ref and the players. Again as I said before, I am very interested in seeing what you come up with. If you can get access to Runequest I would recommend that you take a look at it. For The Fantasy Trip a blog called In The Labyrinth is a tribute site for this game. |
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Post by captaincrumbcake on Jun 2, 2016 12:10:48 GMT -5
 To which I agree, with the latter part at least. And, I do confess I am frequently guilty of not performing. There's no reason you could have. It's not something one (like I) mentions with casuality. And I'm only angry that its a condition that continually attempts to get in my way; not angry at folks that don't know. (Though, you were clever enough to notice my persistence with repetitive meanderings. lol) I have some preliminary notes on this non-class/class--but its still in the very early stages of development. I'll attach it here, but the complete version, if I think there's interest in it, I'll put in the HR folder. Please, keep in mind (everyone) I am still working out the balancing of all this to the actual 3 classes. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2016 12:23:24 GMT -5
From what I can tell, all you're doing is defining a new "ubermensch" class, approximately equal to a fighter/magic-user/cleric/thief multiclassed character. Why do you say that? How do you know? You haven't seen any details of what I'm attempting to do. Granted, if your observation is based on your feelings towards 3-4-5E / PF materials, I can understand where you're coming from. Well, he's saying that because in some places it kinds of sounds that way. I get that the idea is still inchoate, but that means that the rest of us are pretty much guessing to fill in the gaps. Also, there have been "uberclasses" written almost since day one, and some of us have become highly allergic to anything that even vaguely resembles one. Some if it is just twichiness on the part of the audience. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Jun 2, 2016 12:29:46 GMT -5
I am intrigued by the table and it creates in my mind a number of different directions that you could go with this. The whole idea is immediately clearer, at least to me, by the fact that the prime requisites for all three of the core classes are under 9. The level progression and fighting capability does, in my mind, create a fun place to play the character that is below average. The first thing that comes to mind is - will there be a max on dexterity or charisma. Since a high number on either of these would be a fit for either a thief or a paladin if you use them. You have posted enough that it seems to be this is not a new "ubermensch" class, but instead as some real possibilities.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2016 12:30:32 GMT -5
another class; one not trained or skilled in any of the abilities perfected by the 3 aforementioned. But one with as much desire to explore and investigate the big wide world outside their mundane way of life in the village, town, city, etc. as the others. So... do I read this correctly that "a first level AE who fights" would NOT fight as well as a first level fighter? The reason I ask is that I have encountered a LOT of people who want to be a "jack of all trades," but be as good as EACH trade as somebody who specializes. And nuts to that! If so, then maybe you might want to take a look at the Star Wars d20 game. It's actually a terrible game in a lot of ways, but ONE thing they did right was "Jedi vs everything else." As the game works, a Jedi is pretty much "second best" at everything. A soldier fights best, but a Jedi fights better than anybody but a soldier. A Diplomat diplomacies best, but a Jedi is a better diplomat than anybody but a diplomat. In play, the way it worked out was that "If you can send a huge team, send a team of specialists. IF YOU CAN ONLY SEND ONE PERSON, SEND A JEDI!!!" Strategically it was an interesting idea. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2016 12:33:39 GMT -5
Sorry, it should have been "Cap'n Crumbcake." That was just a mistake on my part. Of course, my mind keeps turning "bestialwarlust" into "lustybratwurst," so Crom knows what's going on in there... |
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Post by robkuntz on Jun 2, 2016 12:40:03 GMT -5
I agree, and which I thought I was kind of saying when I said: " Perhaps some might argue that such a world would not be an authentic OD&D campaign. And if such is one's preference, have at it. Or, if one prefers choices beyond those originally conceived, again--have at it." (You didn't catch it?) But, then, as Mike pointed out, I am guilty of scrawling lengthy, convoluted codes in place of traditional grammar. Why do you say that? How do you know? You haven't seen any details of what I'm attempting to do. Granted, if your observation is based on your feelings towards 3-4-5E / PF materials, I can understand where you're coming from. I'm beginning to feel like Howard Roark...  Actually all that you are "guilty" of, if that's the right word, which I do not believe it is, is "thinking out loud" while using the forum at times to do so. We are catching your raw musings which have no (or little) concreteness to them, which is why I suggested that you just write things up without all this preluding. Again, YMMV. And yes, I got the same impression Stormcrow and Gronan fielded about multi-classes. However, I have, in my own world, a more liberal stance on class mixing akin to knowledge acquisition, etc. Then again I do not stress the ultimate "balance" idea that Gary was so fixated upon, as the game can be ramped up at any time to account for "balances". In fact I really am perplexed to this day why DMs are so worried about it. Seems that campaigns are less flexible now with all of the codification of rules and the bean-counting that goes with it. *Shrug* |
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Post by bestialwarlust on Jun 2, 2016 12:40:53 GMT -5
Sorry, it should have been "Cap'n Crumbcake." That was just a mistake on my part. Of course, my mind keeps turning "bestialwarlust" into "lustybratwurst," so Crom knows what's going on in there... Hmmm sounds like a german porn star name |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2016 12:41:23 GMT -5
There's no reason you could have. It's not something one (like I) mentions with casuality. And I'm only angry that its a condition that continually attempts to get in my way; not angry at folks that don't know. (Though, you were clever enough to notice my persistence with repetitive meanderings. lol) That's very gracious of you. I need to remember the old saying, "Be sure your words are sweet and tender, for one day you may have to eat them." |
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Post by robkuntz on Jun 2, 2016 12:43:46 GMT -5
Sorry, it should have been "Cap'n Crumbcake." That was just a mistake on my part. Of course, my mind keeps turning "bestialwarlust" into "lustybratwurst," so Crom knows what's going on in there... Yum. Cupcakes and Bratwursts. And then the Pepto... |
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Post by robkuntz on Jun 2, 2016 12:45:04 GMT -5
There's no reason you could have. It's not something one (like I) mentions with casuality. And I'm only angry that its a condition that continually attempts to get in my way; not angry at folks that don't know. (Though, you were clever enough to notice my persistence with repetitive meanderings. lol) That's very gracious of you. I need to remember the old saying, "Be sure your words are sweet and tender, for one day you may have to eat them." "...eat them." along with the cupcake...  And rinse it down with one of your home-made beers!  |
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Post by bestialwarlust on Jun 2, 2016 12:48:03 GMT -5
That's very gracious of you. I need to remember the old saying, "Be sure your words are sweet and tender, for one day you may have to eat them." "...eat them." along with the cupcake... And rinse it down with one of your home-made beers!  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2016 12:48:34 GMT -5
And yes, I got the same impression Stormcrow and Gronan fielded about multi-classes. However, I have, in my own world, a more liberal stance on class mixing akin to knowledge acquisition, etc. Then again I do not stress the ultimate "balance" idea that Gary was so fixated upon, as the game can be ramped up at any time to account for "balances". In fact I really am perplexed to this day why DMs are so worried about it. Seems that campaigns are less flexible now with all of the codification of rules and the bean-counting that goes with it. *Shrug* Well, me personally -- just one random guy's opinion -- is that I just don't happen to like multiclass characters. No "reason," I just don't like it. I want fighters to fight, magic users to use magic, thieves to thieve, and clerics to cler. Et cetera. New classes can work for me as long as their missions are clear and unique; rangers range, druids dru, Paladins pal, etc. Now, an "Adventurer/Explorer" class actually does have some possibilities, especially if they are not primarily a combat class. Back in the Old Dayse (kaf wheeze darn kids git offa my castle green) the adventuring group... even though the group always changed ... the group was focused on GROUP goals. Nowadays there is a strong emphasis in SOME places that "My character has to be able to do something interesting and fun every single round," so a non combat class wouldn't fly. Maybe the AE could have the specialist skills like animal handling, sailing, wilderness survival, etc. |
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Post by robkuntz on Jun 2, 2016 12:49:06 GMT -5
"...eat them." along with the cupcake... And rinse it down with one of your home-made beers! Very German! Especially the pairing on the right... |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2016 12:54:22 GMT -5
I was going to start another thread on why I don't like multiclassing, but this might possibly be useful to the Cap'n.
The reason I don't like modern day multiclassing is that there are no limits, or very few limits. You can be Fighter 4/Cleric 5/Magic User 6/Thief 4/Bard 5/Druid 2/Fruitbat 5/Man Eating Carp 8/Carp Eating Man 6/Oceans 11 or whatever.
Now, to this old oooo, something like "My sixth level Paladin picks up a level in Cleric to enhance her healing" -- that's different. I can see the synergy there. A concept like "At 7th level you can take one level in another class with the following limits blah blah, and at level twelve you can take another level" I could go fore; it is much, much different from the "Levels a la Carte" method mentioned above.
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Post by robkuntz on Jun 2, 2016 12:59:29 GMT -5
And yes, I got the same impression Stormcrow and Gronan fielded about multi-classes. However, I have, in my own world, a more liberal stance on class mixing akin to knowledge acquisition, etc. Then again I do not stress the ultimate "balance" idea that Gary was so fixated upon, as the game can be ramped up at any time to account for "balances". In fact I really am perplexed to this day why DMs are so worried about it. Seems that campaigns are less flexible now with all of the codification of rules and the bean-counting that goes with it. *Shrug* Well, me personally -- just one random guy's opinion -- is that I just don't happen to like multiclass characters. No "reason," I just don't like it. I want fighters to fight, magic users to use magic, thieves to thieve, and clerics to cler. Et cetera. New classes can work for me as long as their missions are clear and unique; rangers range, druids dru, Paladins pal, etc. Now, an "Adventurer/Explorer" class actually does have some possibilities, especially if they are not primarily a combat class. Back in the Old Dayse (kaf wheeze darn kids git offa my castle green) the adventuring group... even though the group always changed ... the group was focused on GROUP goals. Nowadays there is a strong emphasis in SOME places that "My character has to be able to do something interesting and fun every single round," so a non combat class wouldn't fly. Maybe the AE could have the specialist skills like animal handling, sailing, wilderness survival, etc. Sounds to me that nowadays people are naval gazing rather than setting their eyes to the horizon of Fantasy. There are still some campaigns out there that insist that in 6 years play time that going to 6th level is a big deal! How can one discover Fantasy in all of its many and intricate climes by hanging around the same old town and dungeon? I do not use multiclasses in Kalibruhn, btw, but I allow for things to be learned here or there; and I have a lot of action going on, so even the entitlement generation gamers of today would have a difficult time keeping up with all of the information flow and nuances thrown at them. Take for instance the (literally, in game terms) undiscovered realm of Ancient magic in Kalibruhn and it could keep one occupied sourcing it for many years (of game time)... As for the Captain's A-E I of course wish him luck with it. |
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Post by bestialwarlust on Jun 2, 2016 13:06:10 GMT -5
I was going to start another thread on why I don't like multiclassing, but this might possibly be useful to the Cap'n. The reason I don't like modern day multiclassing is that there are no limits, or very few limits. You can be Fighter 4/Cleric 5/Magic User 6/Thief 4/Bard 5/Druid 2/Fruitbat 5/Man Eating Carp 8/Carp Eating Man 6/Oceans 11 or whatever. Now, to this old oooo, something like "My sixth level Paladin picks up a level in Cleric to enhance her healing" -- that's different. I can see the synergy there. A concept like "At 7th level you can take one level in another class with the following limits blah blah, and at level twelve you can take another level" I could go fore; it is much, much different from the "Levels a la Carte" method mentioned above. I'm the same on the a la carte method also. I don't mind working something out with a player if they have concept in mind that is interesting. If they are just trying to go for the obnoxious build then not so much. But I think the multi classing thing has to do a lot more with a shift in game focus from exploration to a combat simulator. Combat can be fun and add excitement but if that's all the focus is to me it gets boring. |
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Post by bestialwarlust on Jun 2, 2016 13:07:31 GMT -5
To which I agree, with the latter part at least. And, I do confess I am frequently guilty of not performing. There's no reason you could have. It's not something one (like I) mentions with casuality. And I'm only angry that its a condition that continually attempts to get in my way; not angry at folks that don't know. (Though, you were clever enough to notice my persistence with repetitive meanderings. lol) I have some preliminary notes on this non-class/class--but its still in the very early stages of development. I'll attach it here, but the complete version, if I think there's interest in it, I'll put in the HR folder. Please, keep in mind (everyone) I am still working out the balancing of all this to the actual 3 classes. But without derailing your thread I would like to see more of this. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Jun 2, 2016 13:14:20 GMT -5
I was going to start another thread on why I don't like multiclassing, but this might possibly be useful to the Cap'n. The reason I don't like modern day multiclassing is that there are no limits, or very few limits. You can be Fighter 4/Cleric 5/Magic User 6/Thief 4/Bard 5/Druid 2/Fruitbat 5/Man Eating Carp 8/Carp Eating Man 6/Oceans 11 or whatever. Now, to this old oooo, something like "My sixth level Paladin picks up a level in Cleric to enhance her healing" -- that's different. I can see the synergy there. A concept like "At 7th level you can take one level in another class with the following limits blah blah, and at level twelve you can take another level" I could go fore; it is much, much different from the "Levels a la Carte" method mentioned above. I agree with you here, I have the same objection to multi-classing where there are no limits. Even though I understand and can scale the encounters as Rob says, for any PC where the PC is essentially the Master of All Trades, it is not something that I particularly enjoy, because I like having players that can do different things versus everyone being able to do everything equally well. I too think this Adventurer-Explorer class has some real possibilities. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Jun 2, 2016 13:22:26 GMT -5
I for one would like to see more posted on Kalibruhn. (I know - the DVD is coming) (not to derail this thread) |
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Post by robkuntz on Jun 2, 2016 13:50:21 GMT -5
I for one would like to see more posted on Kalibruhn. (I know - the DVD is coming) (not to derail this thread) I just finished up drawing two maps and writing 1,000 words, so I took a break. I am afraid that posting anything is now on hold for too many creative/business reasons, but I can still contribute comments here or there, such as in this thread. |
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And rinse it down with one of your home-made beers! 