You hit it, you killed it!

[captaincrumbcake]

This idea is not unique to my foggy brain and can be traced back to games afar past.
It appears in Chainmail, as well; I believe.
In a mutated form (Critical Hit) it can be found in all versions of D&D, depending on the DM.
I'm giving it some serious re-thinking for my own Lost Lands campaign, but...methinks it (a mechanic, if I ever get to figuring it out)will likely be so unique (to TLL) that it might not appeal to anyone at all.
That said...

any thoughts out there on this?

[hengest]

Sorry to be slow on the uptake, but does this just mean: roll to hit, and if you hit it, you killed it?

I like simple, but I admit, it's hard for me to imagine how this would work in a D&D or similar campaign. Can you post a little more about it? I know you may not have the mechanic worked out, but just a little sketch of the idea?

[Stormcrow]

DM: Roll for initiative.
<rattle, rattle>
DM: The goblins win. The first one attacks the fighter...
<rattle>
DM: He hits! The fighter's dead. Go make a new character.

[robkuntz]

I agree... that you have a foggy brain...

[robkuntz]

You know, many years ago I dispensed with the silliness of critical hits and critical fumbles (for myself at least) as being "realistic. I don't remember exactly, but it went something like this when promoted to a mass scale where two opposing armies fight it out over an hour's time. According to the 5% on either end (fumble/crit) its was determined that during the course of that hour that every weapon on each side would be dropped at least once and there would be a corresponding number of instant kills. Imagine filming such as thing! Not mere reality really, but a Monte Python skit, for sure...

[captaincrumbcake]

Apr 25, 2016 11:57:51 GMT -5 hengest said:

Sorry to be slow on the uptake, but does this just mean: roll to hit, and if you hit it, you killed it?

I like simple, but I admit, it's hard for me to imagine how this would work in a D&D or similar campaign. Can you post a little more about it? I know you may not have the mechanic worked out, but just a little sketch of the idea?

Well, the 'should DM roll damage' question posted in the General folder got me to thinking about this.
I'm warming up to the idea that players do not know how much damage their particular weapon actually does. That each DM could make up a list of all weapons available/useable in his or her campaign and lump them into distinct categories;  like, all small types do 3, medium 4, large 6, huge 8. I suppose if one wanted to get really gonzo, each weapon could do its own unique amount of damage. But that aside, each monster, according to its HP, would (still) only be able to withstand a certain # of attacks depending upon the weapons used against it.

Players, naturally, will balk and sneeze, wanting to know everything and anything possible--as if that's true in RL as well (which we know it isn't)--in order to min-max their character's actions. But, I kind of think, that's why I'm dickering about with this thought in the first place: to get players back to realizing that, what one doesn't know makes it all the more exciting than simply rolling dice, calculating damage and consulting tables from start to end.

I know that's kind of a leap from what I discuss in the OP, but--eventually--there would come a moment when the DM might say, "You hit it? You killed it!"

[robkuntz]

Well they do damage and you adjust it for unknown circumstances, that's not anything new, really.

[hengest]

Sounds cool to me. As I edge closer to (finally) running a solo adventure for one person, totally new to gaming, I'm thinking exactly this to start. Or more like "you killed it!" since she may not even know, at first, what rolling to hit means. Just roll and get the result interpreted. No fudging, let her know that dice are determining certain "outcomes" so I don't make all the decisions, but show her zero character stats, hit tables, nothing. Paper and notecards over by me, dice in the middle. Of course this is nothing new and there are plenty of threads about it on various boards. I just always thought I couldn't handle it. But the more I think about it, maybe I can, at least for a small group.

But anyway, this would include "you rolled X? you killed it!" as a special case of "you rolled X? Here's what happens as you try to cross the rushing stream..." I don't know. Never been a player in a game like this, but I like the idea.

[captaincrumbcake]

Apr 25, 2016 12:40:48 GMT -5 hengest said:

Sounds cool to me. As I edge closer to (finally) running a solo adventure for one person, totally new to gaming, I'm thinking exactly this to start. Or more like "you killed it!" since she may not even know, at first, what rolling to hit means. Just roll and get the result interpreted. No fudging, let her know that dice are determining certain "outcomes" so I don't make all the decisions, but show her zero character stats, hit tables, nothing. Paper and notecards over by me, dice in the middle. Of course this is nothing new and there are plenty of threads about it on various boards. I just always thought I couldn't handle it. But the more I think about it, maybe I can, at least for a small group.

But anyway, this would include "you rolled X? you killed it!" as a special case of "you rolled X? Here's what happens as you try to cross the rushing stream..." I don't know. Never been a player in a game like this, but I like the idea.

I know that many players of the game (and referees) like players rolling dice all the time. I'm not so sure that that has actually been all that beneficial, in the long run. To my way of thinking, it has put more emphasis on the actual, physical action of rolling something that just takes up more time, space, makes noise, and is arbitrarily derived. I mean, is it really that exciting to do/know?

Player: A 19! did I hit it?
DM: Yes. Roll your damage. What's your weapon?
Player: A longsword. That does 1d6. (Rolls) A 5! awesome. Is the giant dead?
DM: Nice damage. No. It's still standing. 

Repeat, repeat, repeat...

Or--

Player: A 19! did I hit it?
DM: Yes. Your shortsword caught the giant's mid-thigh, slicing a giant chunk out of it. Arteries shoot red in pulsating rhythm as the giant wobbles, screams in horror and crashes to the ground.


I guess style can include a bunch of dice rolling. But, it seems (from my experience) that the dice action usually ends up dominating the playing. Could just be my bad luck.

[Admin Pete]

I have done a lot of different things in the past, but I prefer simplicity. The players (30 and under) like the critical hitn so I just do this in the current campaign:

If you roll a natural 20, roll again and on a second natural 20 you killed it.
if you roll a natural 1, roll again and on a second natural 1 or 2 you injured (did damage to) yourself.

And yes, even with the negative result being twice as likely the players like it and want it, go figure.

[hengest]

I'm not sure I understand -- captaincrumbcake , are you thinking "insta-kill on any hit" or "just narrate without informing the players about damage, HP, etc."?

I like rolling dice as a player sometimes -- feels like the gods are deciding.  It can get old fast, though, and I can see why you don't want it to dominate the game.  Dice are not the game, just a tool.  

[robkuntz]

Apr 25, 2016 14:05:07 GMT -5 hengest said:

I'm not sure I understand -- captaincrumbcake , are you thinking "insta-kill on any hit" or "just narrate without informing the players about damage, HP, etc."?

I like rolling dice as a player sometimes -- feels like the gods are deciding.  It can get old fast, though, and I can see why you don't want it to dominate the game.  Dice are not the game, just a tool.  

I believe he's thinking out loud and we are unintended victims of that.  

[captaincrumbcake]

Apr 25, 2016 14:05:07 GMT -5 hengest said:

I'm not sure I understand -- captaincrumbcake , are you thinking "insta-kill on any hit" or "just narrate without informing the players about damage, HP, etc."?

I like rolling dice as a player sometimes -- feels like the gods are deciding.  It can get old fast, though, and I can see why you don't want it to dominate the game.  Dice are not the game, just a tool.  

The first example merely shows the process of rolling hits and damage until the giant dies. The second one shows the end result as well, but with a different attitude.
If I ever get this mechanic figured out, I will certainly post it, for analysis by the great minds lurking around.

[robkuntz]

Apr 25, 2016 14:55:45 GMT -5 captaincrumbcake said:

Apr 25, 2016 14:05:07 GMT -5 hengest said:

I'm not sure I understand -- captaincrumbcake , are you thinking "insta-kill on any hit" or "just narrate without informing the players about damage, HP, etc."?

I like rolling dice as a player sometimes -- feels like the gods are deciding.  It can get old fast, though, and I can see why you don't want it to dominate the game.  Dice are not the game, just a tool.  

The first example merely shows the process of rolling hits and damage until the giant dies. The second one shows the end result as well, but with a different attitude.
If I ever get this mechanic figured out, I will certainly post it, for analysis by the great minds lurking around.

Great minds?  That certainly does not include me, as I am too busy to be too mindful of anything other.  My jocular mood proves as much!  

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

You could also use it for higher level fighters. They could kill low power monsters on a successful hit and as their level grows they could instant kill slightly more powerful creatures. Just the beginning of an idea...

[captaincrumbcake]

Apr 25, 2016 18:24:36 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

You could also use it for higher level fighters. They could kill low power monsters on a successful hit and as their level grows they could instant kill slightly more powerful creatures. Just the beginning of an idea...

That's actually a kool idea; mind if I incorporate it into my foggy mechanic? 

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

Apr 25, 2016 18:50:48 GMT -5 captaincrumbcake said:

Apr 25, 2016 18:24:36 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

You could also use it for higher level fighters. They could kill low power monsters on a successful hit and as their level grows they could instant kill slightly more powerful creatures. Just the beginning of an idea...

That's actually a kool idea; mind if I incorporate it into my foggy mechanic? 

Thanks! Feel free to incorporate it.

[captaincrumbcake]

Okay, folks. Here's a table for Crit. Hits/Kills I designed.
While it is totally arbitrary, I based the figures on the character(fighter)level vs the creature-monster HD.
All Critical Hits require (1st) a natural 20 (until higher levels are achieved), then, a second 20 sided die is rolled and if the result is equal or greater to the # given on the table it is an instant kill.
As fighters get higher in levels, the # needed for an instant kill decreases(see table); if the figure below a monster's HD shows a +1-2-3, etc., an instant kill requires a second natural 20 plus the number shown that may be provided by magical weapons, items or strength bonuses (if using GH and subsequent editions).

While it may appear complicated (cough, cough), it's not. It's just a table. No different than the combat and save charts you (as a DM) likely already use. Getting accustomed to it would require about 3 minutes of your time. If you like it, use it as a template. Modify it. Alter it to suit your own sense of values. (And, sorry about the wobbly columns. I did this in my paint program!)
It is still developmental as far as I'm concerned, and needs some play testing (before I incorporate it into The Lost Lands campaign, anyway.) 

[robkuntz]

Apr 26, 2016 10:57:02 GMT -5 captaincrumbcake said:

Okay, folks. Here's a table for Crit. Hits/Kills I designed.
While it is totally arbitrary, I based the figures on the character(fighter)level vs the creature-monster HD.
All Critical Hits require (1st) a natural 20 (until higher levels are achieved), then, a second 20 sided die is rolled and if the result is equal or greater to the # given on the table it is an instant kill.
As fighters get higher in levels, the # needed for an instant kill decreases(see table); if the figure below a monster's HD shows a +1-2-3, etc., an instant kill requires a second natural 20 plus the number shown that may be provided by magical weapons, items or strength bonuses (if using GH and subsequent editions).

While it may appear complicated (cough, cough), it's not. It's just a table. No different than the combat and save charts you (as a DM) likely already use. Getting accustomed to it would require about 3 minutes of your time. If you like it, use it as a template. Modify it. Alter it to suit your own sense of values. (And, sorry about the wobbly columns. I did this in my paint program!)
It is still developmental as far as I'm concerned, and needs some play testing (before I incorporate it into The Lost Lands campaign, anyway.) 

Have fun killing things!

[captaincrumbcake]

XP for monsters killed is built into the game as much as for GP removed from dungeons. "Rewards" of XP for creative playing have always been DM fiat. AFAIR

[robkuntz]

Of course. I was being serious: "Have fun killing things!"

[captaincrumbcake]

Apr 26, 2016 15:05:12 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

Of course. I was being serious: "Have fun killing things!"

Is that your way of saying you think the table might have some merit? 

I'll take it as a 'A-OK'

[robkuntz]

Doesn't matter whether I believe it has merit or not, but for you, yes. If it works, "Have fun Killing things!"

[captaincrumbcake]

The odds of the mechanic being abused is, IMO, slight to none. Much of that happens to be because of my personal opinion on the idea of an "Instant Kill" (meaning, I think they have a viable function and place in a game such as this), and that--as designed--the table clearly reveals the rarity of success for characters performing such on higher HD monsters/creatures.

Take a L1 Fighter. In order to get a chance at an IK, he'd need, first, to roll a 20 on d20 (1:20); after that, he'd need a 2nd roll of 18 to outright kill an UT 1-1 HD creature/19 for a 1-1, and a second 20 for a 1+1 HD creature. Above that (2 or more HD), the fighter would need bonuses on top of a 2nd roll of 20 to achieve such a feat.

In my humble assessment of the table, its my belief that it reflects a viable means for characters to have a chance to perform feats and deeds read about in epic literature, while insuring that such doesn't come easy, or cheap!

ymmv

[robkuntz]

Hopefully higher level play will spawn from this. There is much more to be discovered beyond the fields we know...

[hengest]

I'm officially into this. It reminds me of the Fantasy Combat Table from Chainmail, which table has given me a lot of pleasure, considering I've never played CM. I like how this gives a window into that fantastical slaying without really altering the mechanics or going crazy. This is cool. Especially if you run it behind the screen / without player knowledge?

[captaincrumbcake]

Apr 26, 2016 19:50:04 GMT -5 hengest said:

I'm officially into this. It reminds me of the Fantasy Combat Table from Chainmail, which table has given me a lot of pleasure, considering I've never played CM. I like how this gives a window into that fantastical slaying without really altering the mechanics or going crazy. This is cool. Especially if you run it behind the screen / without player knowledge?

Thanks for reminding me, on this point: the table is, specifically, intended to be seen only by the DM, behind his screen, without player knowledge!

[Deleted]

Apr 25, 2016 14:48:46 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

I believe he's thinking out loud and we are unintended victims of that.  

Never change, Rob. 

[robkuntz]

Heh. You too!

[Deleted]

If what CaptainCrummy means is "the referee keeps track of hits and damage", then that's the way we played before the rules were published. Rob, as co-ref, may have seen the text, but none of the rest of us did. So we kept fighting until the bad guy died, but we didn't know how many hit dice or hit points anything had.