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Post by Admin Pete on Jan 5, 2022 23:22:08 GMT -5
The blog Simulacrum: Exploring OSR Design did a about the history of the OSR that started in Feb 2021 and concluded in mid December. Here is the first post and I will be reading it with you as I just found it but have not read it. I have no doubt, but that it will be vastly superior to the "history" published by the infamous Shannon Applecline. Nevertheless, I expect to disagree with parts of it. and once I read it I will comment and I hope that you do too. A Historical Look at the OSR — Part I
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Post by boarspear on Jan 6, 2022 11:18:18 GMT -5
I will give it a read!
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Post by boarspear on Jan 6, 2022 14:19:32 GMT -5
I did not play in the early days being 2 years old when D&D was published, so I ask, is this an accurate description of how the game was played in the beginning?
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Post by hengest on Jan 6, 2022 14:44:28 GMT -5
Thanks for posting this, Admin Pete! Have an Exalt! This was a pleasure to read and I would recommend this to just about anyone on this board. This is something I can really appreciate. I've encountered this in other fields -- the person who tries to turn off their own preferences to determine or describe what happened rather than what should have happened. I really do like this idea and this formulation. In my (would-be) game and to my taste, I'd say "scavengers" rather than graverobbers, but it's good to remember this: not heroes by default. If you scroll down in the post to "Master of the Desert Nomads," you'll find an excellent, non-polemical description the agency-reducing features of a module by David Cook. If you want to see (some of) what happened in TSR publications, and you weren't there at the time, definitely give this section a read. The whole thing is worth reading, top to bottom. Looking forward to what Admin and others have to say about this...
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Post by Admin Pete on Jan 7, 2022 0:31:37 GMT -5
I did not play in the early days being 2 years old when D&D was published, so I ask, is this an accurate description of how the game was played in the beginning? Reasonably accurate. It was about exploration, but I am sure that which had prominence the dungeons or wilderness varied from table to table. As PD mentions, he created and ran his first dungeon without ever having played in one first and that they primarily ran wilderness adventures. Also the above "tight gameplay loop" leaves out the adventures in civilization, whether village, town or city. It also leaves out the wide range of roleplaying you might encounter from table to table. It was nowhere as orderly or ordered as he presents IMO. IMO it was more complex and more nuanced than he implies.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jan 7, 2022 0:35:09 GMT -5
Thanks for posting this, Admin Pete! Have an Exalt! Thank you! This was a pleasure to read and I would recommend this to just about anyone on this board. This is something I can really appreciate. I've encountered this in other fields -- the person who tries to turn off their own preferences to determine or describe what happened rather than what should have happened. I agree with this, I can't bring myself to be that dispassionate about things. I really do like this idea and this formulation. In my (would-be) game and to my taste, I'd say "scavengers" rather than graverobbers, but it's good to remember this: not heroes by default. This!
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Post by Admin Pete on Jan 7, 2022 0:42:45 GMT -5
IMO there was no angst about "what's my character's motivation?" because that is a question actors who have not read the script ask the director. But D&D players are not there to act, there is no script and the Ref/DM is not a director in the sense that applies to stage or screen. We all came to the table with normal human motivations, which come to normal people as easily as breathing. I want to explore, John wants treasure, Tim wants a magic sword to help him get revenge, etc. By the same token you don't have to write a back story, it comes to you during play and it is not necessary to even tell anyone else, but it motivates you nevertheless. All part of being a living, breathing human being playing a game that is open-ended and with no straitjacket on your imagination.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jan 7, 2022 0:48:45 GMT -5
I don't know much about adventures modules, but I do know that Keep on the Borderlands contains no trace of a scripted railroad, as PD is wont to say.
Spoiler: There is a Medusa in KotB and IIRC PD said he played in it and recruited the Medusa to help the PCs.
KotB is very open ended and therefore really easy to incorporate into any campaign. If adventure module were all like KotB, I don't think anyone would be opposing them as a valid game tool. Unfortunately the art of writing open ended modules is almost completely lost.
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Post by hengest on Jan 7, 2022 0:50:44 GMT -5
I don't know much about adventures modules, but I do know that Keep on the Borderlands contains no trace of a scripted railroad, as PD is wont to say. Spoiler: There is a Medusa in KotB and IIRC PD said he played in it and recruited the Medusa to help the PCs.KotB is very open ended and therefore really easy to incorporate into any campaign. If adventure module were all like KotB, I don't think anyone would be opposing them as a valid game tool. Unfortunately the art of writing open ended modules is almost completely lost.A project for this board, maybe?
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Post by Admin Pete on Jan 7, 2022 1:00:06 GMT -5
Like I said, I cannot comment much on specific modules, howsomeever,
IMO no eventually to it, boxed text completed the killing off of old school that the first non-open ended modules and AD&D started. So IMO 1980 was mostly the end which is when the boxed text first appeared. After 1980 IMO you can no longer talk about old school D&D.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jan 7, 2022 1:02:14 GMT -5
I don't know much about adventures modules, but I do know that Keep on the Borderlands contains no trace of a scripted railroad, as PD is wont to say. Spoiler: There is a Medusa in KotB and IIRC PD said he played in it and recruited the Medusa to help the PCs.KotB is very open ended and therefore really easy to incorporate into any campaign. If adventure module were all like KotB, I don't think anyone would be opposing them as a valid game tool. Unfortunately the art of writing open ended modules is almost completely lost.A project for this board, maybe? I think you would be quite good at it. I am not sure many of us have a taste for writing adventures. I know for sure PD would not, he is seat of the pants all the way. But if one or several of you want to write modules, we will definitely support you in that endeavor.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jan 7, 2022 1:09:38 GMT -5
Even back then the old school players and Refs did not have a voice in the reviews and people with no old school credentials drove the narrative. That along with a growing horde of players who had no background in fantasy fiction, especially the old fiction entering the hobby along with the "educational" mode of not teaching kids how to think, but only how to follow and obey, came together to facilitate the dumbing down of D&D. Those younger ones of you that are here are exceptions to the rule and there will always be exceptions to the rule. The round peg in a round hole paradigm will always fail to be 100% successful, no matter how forcefully promoted. There will always be those who ask why, even if it is only inside there own heads.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jan 7, 2022 1:15:24 GMT -5
Well Tracy, that is on you. If you want your dungeon to not be an eternal dungeon, then just stop building it bigger. You do not have to keep creating new levels to be explored. As the DM you can set the limits as large or small as you want. It is no fault of the game that you were frustrated, it was your own lack of the ability say enough and allow things to play out. If it becomes "tedious" that is your fault and you had the power to fix it, but you chose to whine and blame the game instead of yourself where the blame belonged.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jan 7, 2022 1:21:51 GMT -5
From the footnotes They came from somewhere alright, a hot place that smells of brimstone.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jan 7, 2022 1:26:01 GMT -5
Also from the footnotes
That is because instead of the DM reading this to the players, it was the players job to ask questions to discover this stuff themselves. Reading boxed text was just stripping D&D of fun and the proof is what happens when it is read, the players minds wonder. It is passive (listening to reading) vs active (asking questions and gathering information). Active is more fun than passive!
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Post by Admin Pete on Jan 7, 2022 1:29:24 GMT -5
This is also from the footnotes
Which method you prefer says a lot about you, your maturity, your ability to think for yourself, how much intellectual curiosity you possess, etc., etc., etc... People don't enjoy things that they lack the mental tools to enjoy.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jan 7, 2022 1:36:37 GMT -5
From the comments
Ah yes, the infamous Mr Kask. Temple of the Frog is a master class in and of itself. Who knows what things would be like if Arneson had been treated right, and wrote modules his way for 30 years for TSR.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jan 7, 2022 1:42:32 GMT -5
I wondered that I had never seen this blog before, but it had 9 posts in 2017, then did not post again until 11 posts in 2020 and 10 in 2021. With no G+ there is no one place to see posts shared anymore.
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Post by hengest on Jan 7, 2022 6:12:25 GMT -5
The writer sure has a solid style and surefooted way of presenting information. As historical posts these posts seemed flawless to me.
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Post by hengest on Jan 7, 2022 8:50:28 GMT -5
Well Tracy, that is on you. If you want your dungeon to not be an eternal dungeon, then just stop building it bigger. You do not have to keep creating new levels to be explored. As the DM you can set the limits as large or small as you want. It is no fault of the game that you were frustrated, it was your own lack of the ability say enough and allow things to play out. If it becomes "tedious" that is your fault and you had the power to fix it, but you chose to whine and blame the game instead of yourself where the blame belonged. Interesting you replied to this. Hickman was half of the writing team that produced the Death's Gate novels which I read under pressure from my girlfriend's sister in college. One of the central elements was a seemingly infinite dungeon-prison, the Labyrinth, from which escape was nearly impossible.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jan 7, 2022 13:57:28 GMT -5
The writer sure has a solid style and surefooted way of presenting information. As historical posts these posts seemed flawless to me. Yeah, I do not think I am disagreeing with him, but more the people he quotes and I think sometimes he should have said more, but then I would be editorializing where he is not.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jan 7, 2022 14:00:04 GMT -5
Well Tracy, that is on you. If you want your dungeon to not be an eternal dungeon, then just stop building it bigger. You do not have to keep creating new levels to be explored. As the DM you can set the limits as large or small as you want. It is no fault of the game that you were frustrated, it was your own lack of the ability say enough and allow things to play out. If it becomes "tedious" that is your fault and you had the power to fix it, but you chose to whine and blame the game instead of yourself where the blame belonged. Interesting you replied to this. Hickman was half of the writing team that produced the Death's Gate novels which I read under pressure from my girlfriend's sister in college. One of the central elements was a seemingly infinite dungeon-prison, the Labyrinth, from which escape was nearly impossible. Heh! You may have guessed that I don't think much of that writing team. Also from things PD has said, his dungeons seem to be infinite, but not a source of frustration to him since there is no grafted on plot and they are intended to be explored from generation to generation by characters and their descendants.
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Post by hengest on Jan 7, 2022 17:41:12 GMT -5
Interesting you replied to this. Hickman was half of the writing team that produced the Death's Gate novels which I read under pressure from my girlfriend's sister in college. One of the central elements was a seemingly infinite dungeon-prison, the Labyrinth, from which escape was nearly impossible. Heh! You may have guessed that I don't think much of that writing team. Also from things PD has said, his dungeons seem to be infinite, but not a source of frustration to him since there is no grafted on plot and they are intended to be explored from generation to generation by characters and their descendants. As I remember the books, they were consistent as if they had been plotted from the start. The writing didn't collapse halfway through from success. But regardless of quality, kind of interesting to see that Hickman was so irritated by his own megadungeon. As you say, he could have done any one or many of infinitely many things with it. It sounds as if freedom for him turned into monotony. Strange to see how fsr back it goes. Of course, people can do whatever they want. But it is a shame (as has been said many times) that catering to and encouraging this kind of helplessness became the main product to sell.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jan 7, 2022 20:06:06 GMT -5
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jan 7, 2022 20:09:20 GMT -5
I did not play in the early days being 2 years old when D&D was published, so I ask, is this an accurate description of how the game was played in the beginning? I was also 2 years old. I didn't discover D&D until 1980 so I would like to know if this is accurate as well.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jan 7, 2022 20:14:22 GMT -5
I wondered that I had never seen this blog before, but it had 9 posts in 2017, then did not post again until 11 posts in 2020 and 10 in 2021. With no G+ there is no one place to see posts shared anymore. Google+ was awesome to me! I thought it was a great tool for social media and fit my tastes perfectly. I so wish it was still around.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jan 7, 2022 20:17:02 GMT -5
I did not play in the early days being 2 years old when D&D was published, so I ask, is this an accurate description of how the game was played in the beginning? I was also 2 years old. I didn't discover D&D until 1980 so I would like to know if this is accurate as well. If I would have read one more post in the thread, I would have gotten an answer - d-oh!
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jan 7, 2022 20:48:06 GMT -5
And now a little bit of commentary on the blog post...
[1] - "As such, early adventure modules gave you settings and situations much more than they gave you deep plots. The Lost City, Keep on the Borderlands, White Plume Mountain, Castle Amber, The Isle of Dread: it's no coincidence that these are places rather than events. With the assumption there that you didn't need to convince people who had showed up to play D&D that they should bother playing D&D, modules simply provided sites to explore."
[1] - Although I wasn't there at the very beginning of hobby, many of these early modules were readily available in 1980. We certainly played many of these modules in my group and had a blast doing so. The bolded portion of the quote above really captures my feelings about the difference in presentation and play style between earlier stuff and the changers to reach the modern offerings. I haven't bought a module since the 80s because the new stuff doesn't appeal to me because it feels too scripted for my tastes and seems to lack character. I remember the illustration of the little hermit dude living in the tree in Keep on the Borderlands to this day. That grabbed my attention and wanted me to discover more. The new stuff does not. On a side note, I may purchase the Goodman Games version of Keep on the Borderlands just to see what they have done with the old product.
[2] - "...it's clear that rules alone do not determine what is old school..."
[2] - This quote nails it as far as I'm concerned. There is no ONE TRUE WAY about OSR. It's about how you play instead of what you play. Was it Necromancer Games that had the tagline of "3rd edition rules, 1st edition feel" or something similar? You can play just about any rpg in an old school style. You just have to change the focus of the game and learn when to hand-wave details and go with the flow.
This first post has definitely caught my eye and I will continue reading.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jan 8, 2022 12:33:13 GMT -5
Thanks for posting this, Admin Pete ! Have an Exalt! This was a pleasure to read and I would recommend this to just about anyone on this board. This is something I can really appreciate. I've encountered this in other fields -- the person who tries to turn off their own preferences to determine or describe what happened rather than what should have happened. I really do like this idea and this formulation. In my (would-be) game and to my taste, I'd say "scavengers" rather than graverobbers, but it's good to remember this: not heroes by default. If you scroll down in the post to "Master of the Desert Nomads," you'll find an excellent, non-polemical description the agency-reducing features of a module by David Cook. If you want to see (some of) what happened in TSR publications, and you weren't there at the time, definitely give this section a read. The whole thing is worth reading, top to bottom. Looking forward to what Admin and others have to say about this... I would use neither "graverobbers" ( I cannot remember one time a grave appeared in my game) nor "scavengers", I have always fallen firmly in the adventurers camp with the potential to become heroes (or not).
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jan 8, 2022 12:36:36 GMT -5
I did not play in the early days being 2 years old when D&D was published, so I ask, is this an accurate description of how the game was played in the beginning? Reasonably accurate. It was about exploration, but I am sure that which had prominence the dungeons or wilderness varied from table to table. As PD mentions, he created and ran his first dungeon without ever having played in one first and that they primarily ran wilderness adventures. Also the above "tight gameplay loop" leaves out the adventures in civilization, whether village, town or city. It also leaves out the wide range of roleplaying you might encounter from table to table. It was nowhere as orderly or ordered as he presents IMO. IMO it was more complex and more nuanced than he implies. I agree with this, I would not describe my game as having a "tight gameplay loop". My players may leave town and between wilderness and dungeon spend months away from town. Not a tight loop at all.
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