|
Post by Death Even XIII on Jun 1, 2021 16:26:52 GMT -5
One of the knocks on OD&D is that there is ambiguity in a number of areas and that things are not clear cut. That this leads to differing interpretations and ways of playing with the implication that that is a bad thing. But no one I have heard can explain why that is a bad thing. They say things like, "but things will be different at different game tables" as though it were desirable for everyone's campaign to run identically. Why would that be desirable, no one knows, because it is an assumption taken as gospel by many without a shred of proof. One of the things that I believe is that people who are creative, thrive on ambiguity and that every campaign being different is so far from a bad thing, that it is instead a very good thing indeed. IMO this is the divide between the truly old school people - they are creative and flexible, thriving on ambiguity; whereas the new school people are rigid and inflexible, helpless without a rule to tell them what to and what to think.
Comments~
|
|
|
Post by El Borak on Jun 1, 2021 17:15:07 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Harry Wolf on Jun 2, 2021 0:58:53 GMT -5
This is true, quite true.
|
|
|
Post by mao on Jun 2, 2021 4:35:39 GMT -5
I find the old timers have better ideas than those who play newer editions
|
|
|
Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 2, 2021 11:19:59 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by xizallian on Jun 2, 2021 14:38:52 GMT -5
Creativity is about believing in the impossible. That is how we got steam engines and electricity to name just two.
|
|
|
Post by xizallian on Jun 2, 2021 14:40:06 GMT -5
This concept is in short supply these days.
|
|
|
Post by hengest on Jun 2, 2021 19:36:57 GMT -5
My interpretation: when you become a slave to plans, when you forget that plans are on the background of a giant mess, when you forget that that mess is much bigger than any plan -- then you cut yourself off from the source of creativity, because creativity means reaching into that mess, while you're standing in a rickety boat, and taking what you want from it.
***
I will not walk with your progressive apes, erect and sapient. Before them gapes the dark abyss to which their progress tends - if by God's mercy progress ever ends, and does not ceaselessly revolve the same unfruitful course with changing of a name. I will not treat your dusty path and flat, denoting this and that by this and that, your world immutable wherein no part the little maker has with maker's art. I bow not yet before the Iron Crown, nor cast my own small golden sceptre down.
J. R. R. Tolkien, excerpt from "Mythopoeia"
***
Creativity in any endeavor, not only in the MIY stuff on this board, means taking the bits of yourself that everyone tells you to throw away and instead finding a way to share them with people. Not to apologize for it, but instead to say, I have something cool here and I hope you'll take a look. You may take off some sharp edges but you don't betray or replace the thing itself.
|
|
|
Post by Death Even XIII on Jun 4, 2021 20:30:49 GMT -5
My interpretation: when you become a slave to plans, when you forget that plans are on the background of a giant mess, when you forget that that mess is much bigger than any plan -- then you cut yourself off from the source of creativity, because creativity means reaching into that mess, while you're standing in a rickety boat, and taking what you want from it. Great statement.
|
|
|
Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jun 5, 2021 8:27:06 GMT -5
One of the knocks on OD&D is that there is ambiguity in a number of areas and that things are not clear cut. That this leads to differing interpretations and ways of playing with the implication that that is a bad thing. But no one I have heard can explain why that is a bad thing. They say things like, "but things will be different at different game tables" as though it were desirable for everyone's campaign to run identically. Why would that be desirable, no one knows, because it is an assumption taken as gospel by many without a shred of proof. One of the things that I believe is that people who are creative, thrive on ambiguity and that every campaign being different is so far from a bad thing, that it is instead a very good thing indeed. IMO this is the divide between the truly old school people - they are creative and flexible, thriving on ambiguity; whereas the new school people are rigid and inflexible, helpless without a rule to tell them what to and what to think. Comments~ Great post and worth an Exalt! I think you nailed the difference between old and new school play style. The old school focus on PLAY of the game is what I really find appealing. If something isn't covered then a decision can be made on the spot and the game carries on. It can either be handled that way from that point on or changed. It doesn't matter. It's what works at YOUR table. The newer editions and games can definitely suffer from an over-reliance on RULES. I think Prestige Classes are a great example of this. It they were done in an old school fashion I could see something similar to one of the early Final Fantasy games where each of the base classes could either stay in that class or advance to other specialized classes. For instance: A Mage could stay a Mage and keep advancing OR A Mage could become a Black Mage, Red Mage, Blue Mage These classes would come with benefits (specialized spells at a discount count) and drawbacks (general spells would be harder) but you get a unique character and it is simple to implement. The new school implementation of Prestige Classes turned into a ton of supplementary material with rules bloat and helped to foster a spirit of munchkin play with people overly concerned about switching to this one at level 6 but only stay in it to level 9 then switching to another one, etc. It became more about benefits and perceived advantages instead of having a cool character concept. Enough rambling. Not even sure if that made sense at this early hour but I hope so.
|
|
|
Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 5, 2021 13:14:36 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Death Even XIII on Jun 14, 2021 20:04:27 GMT -5
Another thought I just had, a lot of people that are deeply committed to BtB gaming have the following objection to DM rulings, they say, "But what if the DM forgets to write down his rulings or forgets how he ruled and the next time it happens 6 months from now, he rules and handles it differently than he did this time." They say that you have to be consistent and rule the same way because after all it is not fair if you don't rule the same way every time. I often wonder how these BtB Karens function out in the real world where the rules and laws change all the time. Here are a few examples Speed Limits Slow Down! A Short History of Speed LimitsA single comment is tossed in about the UK, but the following quote refers to the US.
|
|
|
Post by Death Even XIII on Jun 14, 2021 20:19:18 GMT -5
Here is another example, when I was a boy in the 1950s and early 1960s my mother taught me to tip my hat to a lady, always walk on the outside of the sidewalk next to traffic to protect the lady I was with, always open doors for ladies, always to compliment ladies and try to notice if they were wearing something new or had changed their hair or anything else. It was expected to give ladies compliments and to be polite. You were to never swear in the presence of a lady and dozens of other things. It was assumed that any decent woman would never swear or smoke. That decent women dressed modestly and so.
Boy was my upbringing in for a shock, in 1964 the mini-skirt came out and within a few years girls where scandalizing their parents with them, more girls started smoking and swearing. In 1962 the birth control pill went mainstream, although eight states banned them for quite a while. In the early 1973 abortion became legal and promiscuous sex became even more common than the birth control pill had made it.
A lot of women became what my mother did not want me to be as a man. I was raised to be a gentleman, but suddenly ladies were few and far between.
So yeah, all the BtB Karens want the rules to never change, because that is exactly the way the real world works right? Not!
Now these days, I would not speak first to a woman I did not know for anything, I would not compliment a stranger for any reason. It is just not safe to do. I would hesitate and be very cautious about even smiling at a woman I did not already know.
|
|
|
Post by Death Even XIII on Jun 14, 2021 20:23:07 GMT -5
I could do that I think, now much time would I have to work on it?
|
|
|
Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 14, 2021 21:34:36 GMT -5
I could do that I think, now much time would I have to work on it? Several months, Admin Pete, add Death Even XIII to the fanzine forum please.
|
|
|
Post by hengest on Jun 15, 2021 2:10:00 GMT -5
Good observation Death Even XIII. I have thought about that myself but would never have expected it to come up around here. I have seen a similar aspect of our social lives change in my lifetime, and have noted that a BtB person I know (not a gamer but BtB in other areas of life) had a lot of trouble adapting to this. I admit to being a little like that myself in some areas, particularly where I feel the stakes are high and I have no idea what's going on. But all the more reason for a game to be an opportunity not to worry about all this so much. In fact, one problem I have is a complete lack of interest in system. The best I can do is a random table on occasion. And that's hardly system. It's not that I'm against using dice, but whole systems of mechanics just hold no interest for me. Maybe it's too difficult for me. But in any case, I agree in general. I'd say that the BtB / creative spectrum has people at one extreme who are not comfortable with ambiguity in any sphere as well as people at the other end who require no clarity but what is immediately relevant at the moment. Of course, people will land on the spectrum in different places in regard to different aspects of life. Hm, that gives me an idea for a mechanic...maybe I'm not such a hopeless case.
|
|
|
Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 15, 2021 11:40:27 GMT -5
I like this quote a lot:
I think this is one thing that people miss, really old school gaming is not about nostalgia or looking back, it is about "moving forward, opening up new doors and doing new things, because we’re curious… and curiosity keeps leading us down new paths.” Where is the creativity most active? In the Arneson style of gaming, always tinker, always experiment, always keep trying something new, always keep making up new things for your game. When a new situation comes up, rule on the fly - write it down or do not write it down, your table, your game, your methods and customs.
|
|
|
Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 15, 2021 11:45:11 GMT -5
Another quote I really like is this: I look around the internet at people talking about gaming and I wonder how many or how few the above quote applies to? I can only speak for myself and say that this quote goes right to the heart of why I do what I do.
|
|
|
Post by hengest on Jun 15, 2021 11:46:59 GMT -5
Another quote I really like is this: I look around the internet at people talking about gaming and I wonder how many or how few the above quote applies to? I can only speak for myself and say that this quote goes right to the heart of why I do what I do. I think there are probably a lot of people the quote applies to, but probably the most creative types are being creative and not arguing or even posting online.
|
|
|
Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 15, 2021 11:59:40 GMT -5
Another quote I really like is this: I look around the internet at people talking about gaming and I wonder how many or how few the above quote applies to? I can only speak for myself and say that this quote goes right to the heart of why I do what I do. I think there are probably a lot of people the quote applies to, but probably the most creative types are being creative and not arguing or even posting online. I think you make an excellent point there. I would agree that the vast bulk of DMs and Players are not on any of the forums or other platforms. It would be interesting to know, out of all D&D Refs/DMs, how many are DIY/MIY out of the total.
|
|
|
Post by dicecapades on Jun 16, 2021 15:09:57 GMT -5
There is a word for people who are not able to roll with the punches. The kindest word for that is incompetent. I put it this way, in real life, if my life is on the line and BtB adherence to the rules will get me killed, I hope the person trying to save me can quickly and decisively break the rules to do the right thing and not by following the rules for the "right" thing, cause me to die.
|
|
|
Post by Zantar Boltic on Jun 17, 2021 12:16:36 GMT -5
I like to play D&D with women, which IMO makes BtB play impossible as a concept. Ambiguity thy name is woman and we love you for it. You bring spice to our lives and keep us on our toes.
|
|
|
Post by beyerun24 on Jun 19, 2021 13:42:18 GMT -5
I like to play D&D with women, which IMO makes BtB play impossible as a concept. Ambiguity thy name is woman and we love you for it. You bring spice to our lives and keep us on our toes. I could not agree more and I have always gamed with woman, the whole game takes on a better flavor IMO compared to all guy groups. The more diverse the group is the better IMO, because the more diverse the real life backgrounds the more diverse the ideas and inputs you get and the role playing is multiplied exponentially.
|
|
|
Post by beyerun24 on Jun 19, 2021 13:43:44 GMT -5
This is one of my favorite quotes
|
|
|
Post by Admin Pete on Jun 20, 2021 19:07:10 GMT -5
I could do that I think, now much time would I have to work on it? Several months, Admin Pete, add Death Even XIII to the fanzine forum please. OK, That is done!
|
|
|
Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 21, 2021 12:03:41 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by karaunios on Jun 23, 2021 9:49:17 GMT -5
While I agree with the assertion that old-school people are in general more creative than the ones that prefer the new school, it doesn't have to always be the case. There are many people who prefer particular sets of rules because they like the crunchiness of many rules and tables. I know of people, specially mathematically/scientifically oriented ones, that really love that. They may or may not change and tweak those rules, but it's what make them vibrate. Also, there's people who enjoy any edition of the game. Jim Murphy plays both OD&D and 4e, for instance.
I can't stand many rules. Although I can understand why some people like it, every time I've tried it with games like 1e or 2e, it's overwhelming. Can't imagine how it'd be with 3e and later (ok, 5e has a pass as a player, but I wouldn't DM it). I don't want to have to do a master's degree in order to run a game nor want my players to have to use a character sheet that looks like the tax return. I want to play.
That said, I don't consider myself a particularly creative person, although my mind can't stop thinking about rules and ideas that I could add, my ideas for games, encounters, quests, places, NPCs, whatever, seem to me unoriginal and boring. My players end up enjoying the game even though I tend to improvise most of it and they don't even notice, but we play literally on streaks of one or two months every two years because we have problems matching schedules.
|
|
|
Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 23, 2021 11:06:47 GMT -5
While I agree with the assertion that old-school people are in general more creative than the ones that prefer the new school, it doesn't have to always be the case. There are many people who prefer particular sets of rules because they like the crunchiness of many rules and tables. I know of people, specially mathematically/scientifically oriented ones, that really love that. They may or may not change and tweak those rules, but it's what make them vibrate. Also, there's people who enjoy any edition of the game. Jim Murphy plays both OD&D and 4e, for instance. I can't stand many rules. Although I can understand why some people like it, every time I've tried it with games like 1e or 2e, it's overwhelming. Can't imagine how it'd be with 3e and later (ok, 5e has a pass as a player, but I wouldn't DM it). I don't want to have to do a master's degree in order to run a game nor want my players to have to use a character sheet that looks like the tax return. I want to play. That said, I don't consider myself a particularly creative person, although my mind can't stop thinking about rules and ideas that I could add, my ideas for games, encounters, quests, places, NPCs, whatever, seem to me unoriginal and boring. My players end up enjoying the game even though I tend to improvise most of it and they don't even notice, but we play literally on streaks of one or two months every two years because we have problems matching schedules. I agree that it does not have to be the case, but we are talking about the whole and not the parts. Generalizations are generally true, not always true. Not sure who Jim Murphy is, I don't recognize the name. I think you are vastly underestimating your creativity, sometimes it only needs a place to shine. If you improvise most of it, then you are definitely creative. IMO those who cannot improvise are generally low in creativity. Of course, my opinion is tempered by the fact that my games are 99% improvisation, so there is that. As a referee, I like crunch that help me run the game, I don't like crunch that interferes with running the game. As a player I don't like crunch that limits my choices as a player. OD&D gives the player nearly infinite choice in creating a character and that scares a lot of people because IMO they did not get to play very much or any make believe as a child and or if they did, they have forgotten it. That is why games that have heavy character build with lots of restrictions to sub-divide characters into an infinite number of pre-built models, but one dimensional supermen are popular, but to a creative person those restrictions are irritating at best. In OD&D, at least the way I run it, you can create a jack of all trades master of none or a specialist of any kind that you want, it is up to the player. Any magic-user in the original game when there were just three classes, could be an illusionist if they wanted to, they did not need a class to tell them that. But here is the think that OD&D lets you do, that would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, in later games. In OD&D a group of creative players could be run classless and the players could create characters that start on day one of the game as blank slates and through play you could become whatever you wanted. For instance, Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser did not start out as they are shown in the books, they grew over time into those people. Fafhrd and the Gray MouserIn OD&D, a player could be a Gray Mouser, built through play a bit at a time until around 7th level, they are the Gray Mouser or their version thereof. People think this cannot be done, but it can. OD&D is the most flexible to do something like this. Now I generally run classes, because the time available to play is small, but I would like to do more of this with players.
|
|
|
Post by karaunios on Jun 23, 2021 11:16:57 GMT -5
I don't know, but you must be reading my thoughts or someting. I have been thinking for the good part of the year how it would be running a classless OD&D campaign. Actually, I feel like classes are too artificial and limiting if convenient, specially for beer and pretzels games.
|
|
|
Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 23, 2021 11:35:39 GMT -5
I don't know, but you must be reading my thoughts or someting. I have been thinking for the good part of the year how it would be running a classless OD&D campaign. Actually, I feel like classes are too artificial and limiting if convenient, specially for beer and pretzels games. Gygax once said (paraphrasing here) that we(the rule makers and sellers) should not let them know that they don't need rules. Really the only thing I need to run a game are the to hit tables, save tables and undead turn tables, and the equipment table is helpful, but not essential. I often wing everything else. The hit dice of my monsters is not some hard and fast thing. Truth to tell, I always ran monsters as having their own levels. Back in 1975 my players would run into ogres that had up to 80 hit points as one example. Encounters are generated randomly in my head, I never use the written tables, not even those of my own devising. I look at everything out of game, but I don't use it in game.
|
|