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Post by mao on Mar 31, 2021 4:34:13 GMT -5
Back in the 80s I played a lot of war-game w the Legion rules(FGU) i played as Carthage. Total blast, the rules worked so well at doing exact recreations of how Hannibal arrayed his troops. I picked Carthage for the elephants
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Mar 31, 2021 11:32:55 GMT -5
Back in the 80s I played a lot of wargame w the Legion rues(FGU) i payed as Carthage. Total blast, the rules worked so well at doing exact recreations of how Hanibe arrayed his troops. I picked Carthage for the elephants I've never seen this game. The simultaneous movement seems like a good feature to me.
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Post by The Editor on Mar 31, 2021 11:37:40 GMT -5
mao I split this out for a new thread for you. Tell us more about the game.
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Post by mao on Mar 31, 2021 12:09:36 GMT -5
I will go to as much detail you want, I'll leave you this tidbit I never lost a battle as Carthage, in fact I only ever lost one game(I was playing Roman slave army and I also humiliated Alexander the Great)
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Post by mao on Mar 31, 2021 13:20:23 GMT -5
The game I remember the most about was my single loss to Alexander, I was playing Roman Slave army and my army was all elite but all heavy infantry , Alexander was nearly identical to my Carthage Army(I showed the other players that versatility was essential,) I rolled over my 95% elite morale and was crushed brutally, Even w my expertise I was unable to pull this out. I think he would have beat me even if I had average rolls.As I said we played probably 30 games or so I lost this one time
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Post by mao on Mar 31, 2021 13:50:16 GMT -5
I had armies for Gauls, Carthage, Egypt, Rome and a Roman Slave Army.. My Carthage was very diverse as was my Egypt, I actually wanted to use non-Carthaginian more to give the other players a chance, BUT EVERYONE WANT TO BREAK MY WINNING STREAK ON CARTHAGE. Thus of the 30 games I played about 22 with Carthage.My primary opponent liked Rome and Egypt so he only played those 2 against me., Didn't help. . I had 3 battle lines and about 10 of the games, I completely annihilated my opponents and only my first line was the ever damaged. My beloved elephants were in the back line and only saw combat twice(They had to be in the back as they were very vulnerable to Missile troops.)
about the game itself, I do not remember how the movement worked but I remember everything about the damage system. . We got into exactly 1 argument about the rules which When I will go into detail about all aspects of the damage system.
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Post by Traveroark on Mar 31, 2021 14:03:06 GMT -5
I had armies for Gauls, Carthage, Egypt and Rome and Spartikas. My Carthage was very diverse as was my Egypt, I actually wanted to use non-Carthaginia more to give the other players a chance, BUT EVERY WANT TO BREAK MY WINNING STREAK ON CARTHAGE. Thus of the 30 games I played about 22 with Carthage.My primary opponent liked Rome and Egypt so he only played those 2 against me., Didn't help. . I had 3 battle lines and about 10 of the games, I completely annihilated my opponents and only my first line was the ever damaged. Mt beloved elephants were in the back line and only saw combat twice(They had to be in the back as they were very vulnerable to Missile troops.) about the game itself, I do not remember how the movement worked but I remember everything about the damage system. . WE got into exactly 1 argument about the rules which When I will go into detail about all aspects of the damage system. What did you do that the real Carthage did not do? Do you think the real Carthage should have beaten the Romans?
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Post by Traveroark on Mar 31, 2021 14:04:03 GMT -5
Also speculate on how things would have been different if Carthage had defeated Rome.
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Post by mao on Mar 31, 2021 14:22:59 GMT -5
I had armies for Gauls, Carthage, Egypt and Rome and Spartikas. My Carthage was very diverse as was my Egypt, I actually wanted to use non-Carthaginia more to give the other players a chance, BUT EVERY WANT TO BREAK MY WINNING STREAK ON CARTHAGE. Thus of the 30 games I played about 22 with Carthage.My primary opponent liked Rome and Egypt so he only played those 2 against me., Didn't help. . I had 3 battle lines and about 10 of the games, I completely annihilated my opponents and only my first line was the ever damaged. Mt beloved elephants were in the back line and only saw combat twice(They had to be in the back as they were very vulnerable to Missile troops.) about the game itself, I do not remember how the movement worked but I remember everything about the damage system. . WE got into exactly 1 argument about the rules which When I will go into detail about all aspects of the damage system. What did you do that the real Carthage did not do? Do you think the real Carthage should have beaten the Romans? I had exactly one out of aprox 20 units that was not historical. I had a 2 handed sword unit almost exactly as powerful as my legal elephants, they saw combat once, so it had zero impact on the games I played, other than that I did exactly what Hannable did.
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Post by mao on Mar 31, 2021 14:30:00 GMT -5
Also speculate on how things would have been different if Carthage had defeated Rome. Ok the one flaw in the game was that missile troops were not nearly as good as historical . Most of my games were against Rome so yes, iHannibal should have beaten Scipio, except for the Elite light cavalry that deserted the real Hannibal. Rome was weak in missile troops and Hannibal was using less than properly trained elephants. ,historically just like Carthage. oops got the question wrong!. If Carthage had won, I think it would have radically changed history and their child sacrifice would have become common place
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Post by mao on Mar 31, 2021 15:03:42 GMT -5
combat system and the argument
Ok the combat was in two stages, in the first one you make a melee attack that would at maximum kill one figure, Second You calculate a formula ( you compared the basic combat skills yielding a percentile roll, Even though you were the attacker you could have less chance of winning the melee and it would result in damage and /or a morale saving throw to the loser.
The Argument was, I was playing Alexander and he says that if your to hit in the first stage you have a chance of killing a second figure if your % attack was over 100. (Easily done by the more elite units in the game. The sentence in the rules he was SCREWING UP grammatically said ONE, Not two. You guess who was right.
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Post by mao on Mar 31, 2021 15:08:07 GMT -5
I had armies for Gauls, Carthage, Egypt and Rome and Spartikas. My Carthage was very diverse as was my Egypt, I actually wanted to use non-Carthaginia more to give the other players a chance, BUT EVERY WANT TO BREAK MY WINNING STREAK ON CARTHAGE. Thus of the 30 games I played about 22 with Carthage.My primary opponent liked Rome and Egypt so he only played those 2 against me., Didn't help. . I had 3 battle lines and about 10 of the games, I completely annihilated my opponents and only my first line was the ever damaged. Mt beloved elephants were in the back line and only saw combat twice(They had to be in the back as they were very vulnerable to Missile troops.) about the game itself, I do not remember how the movement worked but I remember everything about the damage system. . WE got into exactly 1 argument about the rules which When I will go into detail about all aspects of the damage system. It just occurred to me, the elephants were placed non-historically so that could have helped me more than I realized at the time.
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Post by mao on Mar 31, 2021 15:35:29 GMT -5
FYI , as good as I was at Legion, the truth of my games w tanks is pathetic, I never in 5-6 years of playing WW2 minis(tractics) did I win ditto for modern or Cival War or Revolutionary War and ......, But I did decently in any kind of ship game, space, historical or fantasy So I had a very particular skill set.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Mar 31, 2021 16:24:10 GMT -5
Also speculate on how things would have been different if Carthage had defeated Rome. Ok the one flaw in the game was missile troops were not nearly as good as historical . Most of my games were against Rome so yes, Hannibal should have beaten Scipio, except for the Elite light cavalry that deserted the real Hannibal. Rome was weak in missile troops and Hannibal was using less than properly trained elephants. ,historically just like Carthage , so the missile troops were equal in the game. oops got the question wrong!. If Carthage had won, I think it would have radically changed history and their child sacrifice would have become common place Having your cavalry desert would be a handicap. Having your Elite light cavalry desert, disaster. Not having child sacrifice become common place is a good thing, not that the Romans were sweetness and roses themselves.
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Post by mao on Mar 31, 2021 16:36:53 GMT -5
Ok the one flaw in the game was missile troops were not nearly as good as historical . Most of my games were against Rome so yes, Hannibal should have beaten Scipio, except for the Elite light cavalry that deserted the real Hannibal. Rome was weak in missile troops and Hannibal was using less than properly trained elephants. ,historically just like Carthage , so the missile troops were equal in the game. oops got the question wrong!. If Carthage had won, I think it would have radically changed history and their child sacrifice would have become common place Having your cavalry desert would be a handicap. Having your Elite light cavalry desert, disaster. Not having child sacrifice become common place is a good thing, not that the Romans were sweetness and roses themselves. thats what I meant
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Post by Traveroark on Mar 31, 2021 16:57:02 GMT -5
I had armies for Gauls, Carthage, Egypt and Rome and Spartikas. My Carthage was very diverse as was my Egypt, I actually wanted to use non-Carthaginia more to give the other players a chance, BUT EVERY WANT TO BREAK MY WINNING STREAK ON CARTHAGE. Thus of the 30 games I played about 22 with Carthage.My primary opponent liked Rome and Egypt so he only played those 2 against me., Didn't help. . I had 3 battle lines and about 10 of the games, I completely annihilated my opponents and only my first line was the ever damaged. Mt beloved elephants were in the back line and only saw combat twice(They had to be in the back as they were very vulnerable to Missile troops.) about the game itself, I do not remember how the movement worked but I remember everything about the damage system. . WE got into exactly 1 argument about the rules which When I will go into detail about all aspects of the damage system. It just occluded to me, the elephants were placed non-historically so that could have helped me more than I realized at the time. What happened historically? Were the elephants put up front and were decimated by Missile troops? I could see elephants fleeing back through the ranks and breaking their own army.
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Post by mao on Mar 31, 2021 17:05:34 GMT -5
Traveroark , Ok at the battle at Carthage, , the poorly trained elephants did indeed run over their own troopS.Actually I am not sure why they are portrayed as being weak to missile troops. The elephants have only 2 figures and the average for other is 6-8 figure unit. I don't think there are any rules that don't portray the elephants as trampling their own troops.
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Post by mao on Apr 1, 2021 6:28:18 GMT -5
The rules were compatible with the WRG rules for ancients to make it easier to play(base size number of figures.) This was a very smart thing for FGU to do.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Apr 1, 2021 14:33:45 GMT -5
Traveroark , Ok at the battle at Carthage, , the poorly trained elephants did indeed run over their own troop, Actually I am not sure why they are portrayed as being weak to missile troops. The elephants have only 2 figures and the average for other is 6-8 figure unit. I don't think there are any rules that don't portray the elephents as trampling thier own troops So you pretty much win by not using the elephants so they don't trample your own troops, sounds like an odd reason to win battles that were lost in the real world. But nevertheless a sound reason. Eliminate the disruption on your side and maybe those Elite light cavalry you mentioned don't desert in the real world.
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Post by mao on Apr 1, 2021 15:19:47 GMT -5
Traveroark , Ok at the battle at Carthage, , the poorly trained elephants did indeed run over their own troop, Actually I am not sure why they are portrayed as being weak to missile troops. The elephants have only 2 figures and the average for other is 6-8 figure unit. I don't think there are any rules that don't portray the elephents as trampling thier own troops So you pretty much win by not using the elephants so they don't trample your own troops, sounds like an odd reason to win battles that were lost in the real world. But nevertheless a sound reason. Eliminate the disruption on your side and maybe those Elite light cavalry you mentioned don't desert in the real world. The light cav were Nubian's from the Sudan and their king switched sides. The only reason Hanible had to use the ellephants is he thought they were indispensable but the Roman had devolved special troop to fight them(they had been battling the Carthaginions for literally 20 years) , Hannible rampaged through Italy. He couldn't lay siege to Rome as he had not enough engineers and had no siege equipment . The only reason he left Italy was that the Romans were at the gates of Carthage and he couldn't bring any of his vets
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Apr 1, 2021 17:15:16 GMT -5
So you pretty much win by not using the elephants so they don't trample your own troops, sounds like an odd reason to win battles that were lost in the real world. But nevertheless a sound reason. Eliminate the disruption on your side and maybe those Elite light cavalry you mentioned don't desert in the real world. The light cav were Nubian's from the Sudan and their king switched sides. The only reason Hanible had to use the ellephants is he thought they were indispensable but the Roman had devolved special troop to fight them(they had been battling the Carthaginions for literally 20 years) , Hannible rampaged through Italy. He couldn't lay siege to Rome as he had not enough engineers and had no siege equipment . The only reason he left Italy was that the Romans were at the gates of Carthage and he couldn't bring any of his vets Not a period of history that I ever looked at much, makes me want to do some reading.
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Post by mao on Apr 1, 2021 18:21:53 GMT -5
Yea, you might have realized I know thing or two about Hanibal I was so disappointed when I found out the human sacrifice was, Carthage needed to be pt down.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Apr 3, 2021 0:11:00 GMT -5
Yea, you might have realized I know thing or two about Hanibal I was so disappointed when I found out the human sacrifice was, Carthage needed to be pt down. I wonder how extensive human and child sacrifice was in the ancient world. You would have thought it would have been wildly unpopular with most people.
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Post by mao on Apr 3, 2021 2:49:48 GMT -5
Yea, you might have realized I know thing or two about Hanibal I was so disappointed when I found out the human sacrifice was, Carthage needed to be pt down. I wonder how extensive human and child sacrifice was in the ancient world. You would have thought it would have been wildly unpopular with most people. The Carthaginians were particularity evil in this regard
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Post by mao on Apr 3, 2021 6:13:55 GMT -5
There is another game w very similar rules called"Royal Armies of the Hyborian Age". It was set in Conan s world and was basically the same game but Hyborian had magic and super hero rules.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Apr 3, 2021 10:43:35 GMT -5
I wonder how extensive human and child sacrifice was in the ancient world. You would have thought it would have been wildly unpopular with most people. The Carthaginians were particularity evil in this regard Considering all the people that the Romans sent to die in the arena, I don't think they had any less blood on their hands and I view defenseless people being killed by lions and other predators for entertainment to be human and child sacrifice, even though it was not and is not called that. I don't think the Carthaginians were any more evil than most of the other peoples at the time and before. Consider ancient Greece whose culture was built on generational pedophilia as the backbone of their military, especially the Spartans who are praised even though they were some of the most evil people in history. The ancient world had a number of cultures where pedophilia and bestiality were rife in their cultures and some of the descendants of those cultures continue those practices to this day. Around the world the number of people in slavery is actually higher now than at any point in the past.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Apr 3, 2021 10:45:36 GMT -5
There is another game w very similar rules called"Royal Armies of the Hyborian Age". It was set in Conan s world and was basically the same game but Hyborian had magic and super hero rules. I would love to have a copy of that. Big fan of Conan and the Hyborian Age.
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Post by hengest on Apr 4, 2021 18:42:14 GMT -5
mao is there a book you would recommend about Carthage or Hannibal?
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Post by mao on Apr 4, 2021 19:08:56 GMT -5
mao is there a book you would recommend about Carthage or Hannibal? i have not read anything in the last 30 years on them, I can give you one piece of advise. Look for a book that portrays Hannible as being a black African
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Post by mao on Apr 4, 2021 19:10:03 GMT -5
There is another game w very similar rules called"Royal Armies of the Hyborian Age". It was set in Conan s world and was basically the same game but Hyborian had magic and super hero rules. I would love to have a copy of that. Big fan of Conan and the Hyborian Age. You can get a pdf from FGU, I think it was like $10
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