"scratch paper" / journal thread (comments welcome)

[hengest]

1
Gonna try to post a bit once a day for a while, we'll see how that goes.

I need to get away from the idea that I'm ever going to publish anything or e-publish anything or even release a PDF.  There is a ton of great material out there, for little money or totally free, and no one needs my PDF.  

That said, I have reasons to want to develop my own materials into some form that I could use in a few years.  Assuming the world is still standing.  
It comes to mind easily that a lot of what we aim for, the immersion in The Game (not necessarily play-acting) comes easily to many young children.  Cowboys and Indians.  I'm this, you're that.  And the sense that the game is not just fun, but Real and Important.  

So I want to think about ways to help young children build on this ability rather than losing it ("growing up," "growing out of it").  Which is not to say that formalized roleplaying (OD&D, whatever) is the be-all and end-all of imaginative play.  But there is a whole world of hobby and interest and fun and Reality here, and if I want to share it in some way with young people I might know, I have to be ready when they are.  

Related topics: improv for children, resource management games, cooperative games, language development games, play-acting, puppet games ...

I don't think the main type of post I have on this subforum expresses very clearly my main interest.  The posts I make on here are modular ideas that could be slotted in anywhere in a way that makes sense.  Ideally, the better ones would be memorable.  Provide a locational / emotional / visual hook that helps the players, that makes the setting stick.  Helps what the ref brings to the table to feel real, or potentially real.  

But those things can't just be stuck onto each other willy-nilly.  If used at all, they have to be used as a spice.

What do I think of when I think of a session (not consciously stealing any of these, but I read a lot of OSR material some years ago and I may have crypto-memories):

• surviving characters scrambling out of a hole at dawn after spending the night dealing with horrible things
• the feeling of immersion, not in the wider world, not in the politics of imagined high-level play, but in the right now of Do I have another torch, What's down that hall, What was that sound, Is there a way out, Why is this happening, Who am I talking to?
• the feeling that you can take a risk, can do something you never thought you do, not magic or superstrength, but just trying at all, which includes just the "old-school" trying to stay alive 
• the mini-skills of a decent ref, nothing super fancy, not what you develop after years and decades, but the slight moments of suspense, the little touches, the scramble to deal with something unexpected that works or doesn't

I have to believe that this kind of game is for everyone, and that reffing long-term is something I can do if I try, and that it's worth it. 

[hengest]

2

Ideal: a setting that anyone familiar with the local (real-world) culture can get into.

Practical: I guess a setting that has enough of the familiar stuff to be accessible to gamers, with enough of its own fun to be fun.

Likely: an underthought setting.

[hengest]

3

Design ruined cathedral. I'm sure there are a million out there. But I want my own.

Make it make sense but also modular.

Altar, nave, narthex.

Combine Eastern / Wesrern layouts and use a rood screen instead of an iconostasis.

Separate altar design.

Remove Christian elements for game but base on eastern layout.

Add chapel on one side with separate altar.

What could be left? How long abandoned and why?

Maybe everything is left. Nothing vandalized or ripped off. But the air is still.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Sept 5, 2020 20:01:46 GMT -5 hengest said:

1
Gonna try to post a bit once a day for a while, we'll see how that goes.

I need to get away from the idea that I'm ever going to publish anything or e-publish anything or even release a PDF.  There is a ton of great material out there, for little money or totally free, and no one needs my PDF.  

That said, I have reasons to want to develop my own materials into some form that I could use in a few years.  Assuming the world is still standing.  
It comes to mind easily that a lot of what we aim for, the immersion in The Game (not necessarily play-acting) comes easily to many young children.  Cowboys and Indians.  I'm this, you're that.  And the sense that the game is not just fun, but Real and Important.  

So I want to think about ways to help young children build on this ability rather than losing it ("growing up," "growing out of it").  Which is not to say that formalized roleplaying (OD&D, whatever) is the be-all and end-all of imaginative play.  But there is a whole world of hobby and interest and fun and Reality here, and if I want to share it in some way with young people I might know, I have to be ready when they are.  

Related topics: improv for children, resource management games, cooperative games, language development games, play-acting, puppet games ...

I don't think the main type of post I have on this subforum expresses very clearly my main interest.  The posts I make on here are modular ideas that could be slotted in anywhere in a way that makes sense.  Ideally, the better ones would be memorable.  Provide a locational / emotional / visual hook that helps the players, that makes the setting stick.  Helps what the ref brings to the table to feel real, or potentially real.  

But those things can't just be stuck onto each other willy-nilly.  If used at all, they have to be used as a spice.

What do I think of when I think of a session (not consciously stealing any of these, but I read a lot of OSR material some years ago and I may have crypto-memories):

• surviving characters scrambling out of a hole at dawn after spending the night dealing with horrible things
• the feeling of immersion, not in the wider world, not in the politics of imagined high-level play, but in the right now of Do I have another torch, What's down that hall, What was that sound, Is there a way out, Why is this happening, Who am I talking to?
• the feeling that you can take a risk, can do something you never thought you do, not magic or superstrength, but just trying at all, which includes just the "old-school" trying to stay alive 
• the mini-skills of a decent ref, nothing super fancy, not what you develop after years and decades, but the slight moments of suspense, the little touches, the scramble to deal with something unexpected that works or doesn't

I have to believe that this kind of game is for everyone, and that reffing long-term is something I can do if I try, and that it's worth it. 

Have an Exalt, I like this!

[hengest]

4

Children switch roles readily.

Apparently, in the old days, retainers were common and characters died often.

This days, some people are primed to be very attached to their character and to equate death with failure.

I have to read more accounts from people who have reffed with fairly young kids.

Whatever the lower limit is on "age of being able to death with risk, agency, character death," I wonder what I can do younger than that as a gateway activity.

Serious role-play of one kind (acting out scenes, fairy tales, "talking" for animals and objects) seems to begin at age 2.

When is old enough to understand and respect restrictions as embodied by the ref?

[hengest]

4.5


Re: sense.  In the tricks and traps document by Courtney Campbell, we read:


"Part of the cultural zeitgeist of Dungeons and Dragons was the mystique of the dungeon or underworld as the unknown. When playing the brave heroes who leave the realm of the known world and travel past the threshold to unknown depths, anything is possible."


Why am I so hung up on sense?  I want my ruins to be plausible.  


But maybe there is an overworld (daylight), a twilight world (semi-sense, distortions of daylight, hypnagogia, proto-dreams), and an underworld (dreams, nightmares).  I guess I'm reinventing a basic aspect of the OS school.

[hengest]

4.6

Again, Courtney Campbell:

"Monsters, humanoids and magical beasts in particular are not just animals or men with different hats on. They are the physical manifestations of our fears and risk. You don’t have to worry about what they eat or how they live. Orcs are the ancient ancestor with superior physical strength and squad tactics who we ran into extinction, vampires our fear of rape, the lich our fear of ancient rulers imposing their unending rule upon us, flesh golems the fear of what might come back if we were to raise the dead, skeletons and zombies our fear of the relentless nature of what is to come. To acknowledge a fireball, yet express disbelief that the owlbear can’t live off the caloric content of vermin on dungeon level two is petty indeed."

This is pretty excellent, and reminds me that it was his blog that rekindled my interest in this stuff years ago.

Has anyone experimented with a dungeon or level in which monsters can't be killed, can't even be engaged with? They are just terror. Can they kill you? Will feel unfair if they can. Can they do something else to you? Now we're tending towards Call of Cthulhu.

Undead without the classic effects. Undead that reverse things, that move quick and with purpose...your purpose. Undead that drain motivation.

Undead that drain memory.

Undead that drain memory and erase maps.

[hengest]

Magic is concentrated life. Focused vitality. Resources sustain life.

Undead that drain magic from weapons, turn potions into tasteless liquid, age leather, make lamp oil burn faster, shrink torches, spoil rations, change gems to pebbles and gold to dirt.

[hengest]

4.7

When are we most vulnerable?  When asleep.  

• Undead that come and lie inside you while you sleep.  They gain what you should have gained from rest.  Healing, spells, continued sanity.  You wake up as you were when you lay down.
• A dungeon level deep enough in the underworld that resting there gives you inverted dreams.  You dream of waking life, as you are surrounded by nightmares.
• A level where sleeping there may allow your tongue to leave you and strike off on its own within the level. It may take some of your equipment.  
• Sleeping in the old forest may allow your flesh to send roots into the earth.  Particularly hard on those who sleep face down.

[hengest]

4.8

Microplanes thread here, thanks to mao.

Usually we can get to somewhere from anywhere through any number of sets of intervening points.

These planes are limited but not always small in size.  They can be entered and exited only in idiosyncratic ways.  Sometimes one door goes is entrance and exit.  

I think microplanes should not be Brigadoon (mini-world of regular people, enchanted).  

To some such planes, an entry point could be the center of a religion.  

But ideally, only one such plane should be at all accessible in one part of the campaign world.  Hidden or otherwise unknown.  Otherwise, it becomes a crawlspace.  

[hengest]

The purpose of a modular set of ideas is not for them to be slotted into an existing world, although that is a possible use. The purpose is to inspire or suggest, for each idea, a set of surroundings, reasons, related people and places, uses, causes, effects, visions, events, any one of which might draw the characters or players deeper into the world. A good modular unit will inspire the ref, and the players will benefit even if they never see that unit.

Link to post on another thread: ruinsofmurkhill.proboards.com/post/43682/thread.  A follow-up to an old concern of mine that touches on recent posts here, as well.    

[hengest]

This isn't design or worldbuilding. It's not even a starter set of material for a campaign. This whole sub is a way to test out a certain starter set of skills and to see where I can go from there.

I don't naturally see connections that well. I see things as superimposed on each other. My attempts to make connections are artificial.

[hengest]

In my notes on The Town, I got lost after the basic description of the initial idea.  The last couple posts were to suggest avenues for a ref to make it all make sense...but that's not really necessary, is it?

Rather than a sensible underworld that was formed by some everyday process (layer after archaeological layer of ruined town), why not have it be an old but normal town that for some reason or no reason is being invaded from below by madness?  The insane passages have linked  themselves with natural cellars.  The town can even have been pushed up by this process, and that accounts for its location on the hill.

[hengest]

5

In Campbell's Hack and Slash Compendium from 2015, he describes an interesting system, items thst come in sets, to make nonmonetary treasure more interesting and to cause the players to feel like the choices aren't so mechanical.

I like the idea. But I wouldn't want to run it. Partly because I don't like bookkeeping, but largely because I don't love treasure. I'd much rather do XP for almost anything else. Or for other things with a small amount for treasure.

It makes me wonder...is my ideal starter adventure for zero-level characters who, if they survive, may get to attain first-level?

[mao]

Sept 8, 2020 23:06:55 GMT -5 hengest said:

In my notes on The Town, I got lost after the basic description of the initial idea.  The last couple posts were to suggest avenues for a ref to make it all make sense...but that's not really necessary, is it?

Rather than a sensible underworld that was formed by some everyday process (layer after archaeological layer of ruined town), why not have it be an old but normal town that for some reason or no reason is being invaded from below by madness?  The insane passages have linked  themselves with natural cellars.  The town can even have been pushed up by this process, and that accounts for its location on the hill.

Love this!

[mao]

Sept 9, 2020 12:13:28 GMT -5 hengest said:

5

In Campbell's Hack and Slash Compendium from 2015, he describes an interesting system, items thst come in sets, to make nonmonetary treasure more interesting and to cause the players to feel like the choices aren't so mechanical.

I like the idea. But I wouldn't want to run it. Partly because I don't like bookkeeping, but largely because I don't love treasure. I'd much rather do XP for almost anything else. Or for other things with a small amount for treasure.

It makes me wonder...is my ideal starter adventure for zero-level characters who, if they survive, may get to attain first-level?

I used to do this years ago. In theory a fantastic idea but in practice not really workable unless you have very very serious RPers in your gaem They just want power in there gear.But I agree it very very cool.

[hengest]

Sept 10, 2020 6:43:50 GMT -5 mao said:

Sept 9, 2020 12:13:28 GMT -5 hengest said:

5

In Campbell's Hack and Slash Compendium from 2015, he describes an interesting system, items thst come in sets, to make nonmonetary treasure more interesting and to cause the players to feel like the choices aren't so mechanical.

I like the idea. But I wouldn't want to run it. Partly because I don't like bookkeeping, but largely because I don't love treasure. I'd much rather do XP for almost anything else. Or for other things with a small amount for treasure.

It makes me wonder...is my ideal starter adventure for zero-level characters who, if they survive, may get to attain first-level?

I used to do this years ago. In theory a fantastic idea but in practice not really workable unless you have very very serious RPers in your gaem They just want power in there gear.But I agree it very very cool.

It's got me thinking about having no XP GP value. Low-level hoards and a focus, or one focus, on such sets. Might be railroady but maybe not. XP given for player skill, thought, etc. Treasure sets (maybe held by the whole party) give insight into the world and are valuable to players because they increase engagement...

[hengest]

6

If I wait around until I have a gaming group, I am never going to run anything.

Maybe I should make my initial setup and run it for whoever will play, however, whenever. "Old School." Someone by email, maybe someone in person. Of course, I'd actually have to decide on that initial setup...but maybe this is a better "cornucopia" goal than having a million scenes at the ready. We'll see...

[hengest]

7

Develop The Town, scrapping whatever needs to go. This is my starter town, megadungeon, rumor mill, base of operations in one.

Keep underworld bursting into town on hill. Keep cellars linked up with insane passages.
Keep confused rumors / folklore.

Allow demihumans, OD&D-style.
Make town less haunted and more normal.
Name the town. A nice name like "Bluebell."
Develop a bit outside the town at least in a basic way so players have choices.
Develop a creature type unique to the dungeon of madness.

[hengest]

Why are there demihumans? Why not, it's fun. Some resident, PCs could be from out of town.

Bluebell. Healthy trade. Not a town in the middle of nothing. One among many.

Creature.

A tall humanoid that looks like it is made of roots. If you are in a group it can only barely be glimpsed down passages. If you are with a companion, it can be seen clearly before disappearing. If you are alone, it may approach and reach out for you.

Inspires elemental fear. Make version of morale check. Creature should be unfightable.

[mao]

Sept 10, 2020 13:30:01 GMT -5 hengest said:

Sept 10, 2020 6:43:50 GMT -5 mao said:

I used to do this years ago. In theory a fantastic idea but in practice not really workable unless you have very very serious RPers in your gaem They just want power in there gear.But I agree it very very cool.

It's got me thinking about having no XP GP value. Low-level hoards and a focus, or one focus, on such sets. Might be railroady but maybe not. XP given for player skill, thought, etc. Treasure sets (maybe held by the whole party) give insight into the world and are valuable to players because they increase engagement...

As the king of, no emperor of railroady, its underrated

[hengest]

9

Every time I make it back to this forum and look at this material, I wish I had better discipline.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Feb 22, 2021 0:11:11 GMT -5 hengest said:

9

Every time I make it back to this forum and look at this material, I wish I had better discipline.

Don't feel bad about it or get down on yourself, I think several of us would make the same observation. I have wished for better discipline all my life. I get distracted too easily and then I realize I have over 300 tabs open in 6 different browsers. I don't have time to bookmark and close all of them individually and I hate to close them because I won't get back to them. Then I realize, oh yeah, I was going to post somethings and I just had to look something up and then 300 tabs later. OOPS!!

[hengest]

10

The idea of submitting to a Murkhill fanzine makes me want to produce more material, and at the same time, to be a little nervous about it.

I'm going to try to ignore this and just do my posts.

[hengest]

11
placeholder entry for "intelligent fools"

Not my usual focus on here. Inspired by this comment: ruinsofmurkhill.proboards.com/post/45513/thread (thank you ripx187 )

How to have a super intelligent NPC that you aren't in danger of using as an omnipotent "railroad engineer": the intelligent fool.

People work against their own interests all the time. The super-intelligent aren't immune to it. People get some warped idea and then hang onto it despite whatever. An intelligent fool could be a worthy adversary (should the PCs get involved) but be self-tripping enough (plenty of examples in life) that his behavior becomes both unpredictable and exploitable. Infinite (or infinite next to the PCs) resources but finite wisdom.

The king doesn't want his daughter interested in suitors...so he posts his strongest guard to watch over her day and night.

The baron has a secret and doesn't want people poking around the ruins, so he hires the PCs, on the strength of their reputation, to go to the ruins and clear out any treasure and magic items.

Edit: can be comical and clunky or more subtle, of course, depending on "resolution" of campaign, etc

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Feb 23, 2021 19:00:25 GMT -5 hengest said:

10

The idea of submitting to a Murkhill fanzine makes me want to produce more material, and at the same time, to be a little nervous about it.

I'm going to try to ignore this and just do my posts.

Consider the pressure removed. There is already enough posted by you on this site to easily cover two issues and that doesn't even count that wild connected underworld of yours. In fact, you have posted enough gems in the last 48 hours alone to cover two issues IMO. So no reason to be nervous, just have fun.

[hengest]

Feb 24, 2021 0:05:31 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

Consider the pressure removed. There is already enough posted by you on this site to easily cover two issues and that doesn't even count that wild connected underworld of yours. In fact, you have posted enough gems in the last 48 hours alone to cover two issues IMO. So no reason to be nervous, just have fun.

Ha, thanks, PD. I meant it just as a journal thought for myself, not really as a cry for help. No real pressure, just I like the idea of the fanzine and it would be too cool to contribute if it happens.

[mao]

Feb 23, 2021 23:51:46 GMT -5 hengest said:

11
placeholder entry for "intelligent fools"

Not my usual focus on here. Inspired by this comment: ruinsofmurkhill.proboards.com/post/45513/thread (thank you ripx187 )

How to have a super intelligent NPC that you aren't in danger of using as an omnipotent "railroad engineer": the intelligent fool.

People work against their own interests all the time. The super-intelligent aren't immune to it. People get some warped idea and then hang onto it despite whatever. An intelligent fool could be a worthy adversary (should the PCs get involved) but be self-tripping enough (plenty of examples in life) that his behavior becomes both unpredictable and exploitable. Infinite (or infinite next to the PCs) resources but finite wisdom.

The king doesn't want his daughter interested in suitors...so he posts his strongest guard to watch over her day and night.

The baron has a secret and doesn't want people poking around the ruins, so he hires the PCs, on the strength of their reputation, to go to the ruins and clear out any treasure and magic items.

Edit: can be comical and clunky or more subtle, of course, depending on "resolution" of campaign, etc

Let's not forget bird brained

[hengest]

Yeah, bird-brained also works. I was thinking since there's such a drive to have evil geniuses, why not have them be normal (self-defeating) evil geniuses.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Feb 24, 2021 20:30:49 GMT -5 hengest said:

Yeah, bird-brained also works. I was thinking since there's such a drive to have evil geniuses, why not have them be normal (self-defeating) evil geniuses.