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Post by mao on May 10, 2020 5:01:22 GMT -5
I was posting in the thread about cantrips and thinking about how this would effect the average game when I had a thought: What about dogs? The average game tends to have history that stretches back to a precursor race(a lot of time elves). Comparing this to the 3000 years plus of Earth history, the dog takes on a lot of potential. Their loyalty and disposition alone would have a huge effect on breeding and magical augmentation. Image a watch dog that has thousands of years bof breeding. Of course in breading would also be a possibility.
I think this could be as important on how you view mages. Just a stray thought(although I've got an idea for a dwarven watchdog)
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ampleframework
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Post by ampleframework on May 11, 2020 17:13:08 GMT -5
We seem to think alike in many regards, Mao. One of the things I penciled into my OD&D equipment list was "trained dog". I run OD&D as a rough and tumble wilderness/frontier world where going into the woods is quite dangerous, so having a loyal hunting or guard dog with one's self is generally considered to be more than worth its weight in salt.
Magically altered/bred dogs would be a horse of a different color altogether. I tend to think such experimentation would have resulted in things like Blink Dogs or maybe even Gnolls in some circumstances, although it would be possible through careful and conservative tampering to get something more like a highly specialized non-sentient dog. Such a critter would be a degree or magnitude more rare and expensive than the mundane dogs one would find for sale on the streets of Lorport or other locations in my game world, though.
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Post by raikenclw on May 11, 2020 21:52:46 GMT -5
Ever seen the videos of Stella the Instagram Dog? Her owner is a speech pathologist and claims to have taught Stella a vocabulary of 29 words, which the dog uses to communicate on a daily basis. The videos are certainly fascinating, but Stella's actions are also being "interpreted" for us by her owner . . . who also edits the videos. So it's hard to dismiss the idea that a lot of what Stella "means" is supplied by her "interpreter."
Still yet . . .
I would imagine that a magically-educated dog probably could communicate with it's owner in some such fashion.
I'm also put in mind of a science fiction B movie from the late 80s. Can't recall the title, but the plot involved two experimental subjects that escaped a military research lab. The subjects were empathically linked. One was a grotesque man-monster with superhuman strength and built-in bioweaponry. The other was an ordinary-looking dog with human-level intelligence. The dog is found by Our Hero or rather the other way around. OH takes the dog into his motel room, whereupon the dog grabs the phone directory and flops it on the bed, then noses it open. He next runs into the bathroom and comes out with a roll of toilet paper. Then the dog makes the trip again and adds a white washcloth . . .
Dog looks expectantly at Our Hero. Our Hero: "Sorry. I don't understand." Dog nudges phonebook then drags a white cased pillow over by the phone book. Our Hero: "Still nothing." Dog sighs then snatches the white lampshade off the room's lamp and adds the shade to the pile. Our Hero: "Uh . . . all things found in a cheap motel room?" Dog hangs its head in despair. Our Hero: "Wait a minute. You're telling me your owner's name is White?" Dog jumps up and yips . . . and you can almost hear, "Finally! You moron . . ."
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Post by raikenclw on May 11, 2020 22:02:10 GMT -5
BTW, whenever the Man-Monster was around somewhere close but not actually on-screen, it always moved in lightning-quick, soundless, shadowy flickers. Yet whenever the camera was actually on it, its motions became a drunken lurching stagger . . . most likely because the costume weighed about a ton and the poor stuntman could hardly walk in it at all. For this reason, between ourselves my friend Sean and I referred to the film as The Stealthy Lurcher Movie.
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ampleframework
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Post by ampleframework on May 12, 2020 7:32:29 GMT -5
The thing about the owner "interpreting" applies to all those apes who can supposedly use Human Sign Language, too, I feel. They're clearly intelligent and sometimes sign accurately, but when they (often) get it wrong the trainers will say "Oh he's just playing. He's so silly" or some such to discount the error. They seem to be emotionally invested in the idea that these apes can communicate on a Human level, and to me that's not an impartial nor scientific way to approach such projects.
Obviously, in a fantasy setting, these things can become more believable or even actually real. Depending on what supplements or homebrew spells you use in D&D, the process of "Awakening" an animal is a thing. You run into the "I, Robot" problem when you make them too smart, though. Or maybe a "Planet of the Apes" or whatever analogy you wish to use. When you elevate something to Human levels of sentience and expect them to continue to act as indentured servants or for your personal amusement, that's when bad things happen. That's the fine line that ye olde wizard researcher faces in the worlds of fantasy. You can have a servant who is very intelligent and creative, or one who is slavish and loyal, but the lines become very blurred when you try to combine those traits, and one side's gonna win out.
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Post by mao on May 12, 2020 7:37:23 GMT -5
The thing about the owner "interpreting" applies to all those apes who can supposedly use Human Sign Language, too, I feel. They're clearly intelligent and sometimes sign accurately, but when they (often) get it wrong the trainers will say "Oh he's just playing. He's so silly" or some such to discount the error. They seem to be emotionally invested in the idea that these apes can communicate on a Human level, and to me that's not an impartial nor scientific way to approach such projects. Obviously, in a fantasy setting, these things can become more believable or even actually real. Depending on what supplements or homebrew spells you use in D&D, the process of "Awakening" an animal is a thing. You run into the "I, Robot" problem when you make them too smart, though. Or maybe a "Planet of the Apes" or whatever analogy you wish to use. When you elevate something to Human levels of sentience and expect them to continue to act as indentured servants or for your personal amusement, that's when bad things happen. That's the fine line that ye olde wizard researcher faces in the worlds of fantasy. You can have a servant who is very intelligent and creative, or one who is slavish and loyal, but the lines become very blurred when you try to combine those traits, and one side's gonna win out. I think the key to this about awakened dogs is that they can maintain their loyalty to the "pack"
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ampleframework
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Post by ampleframework on May 12, 2020 7:58:00 GMT -5
Indeed. Of course, a dog that's properly treated will often consider its human companions part of its pack, and in some cases will envision one of them as the Alpha. That would be a factor in determining how an Awakened dog might treat its master.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on May 16, 2020 3:40:58 GMT -5
BTW, whenever the Man-Monster was around somewhere close but not actually on-screen, it always moved in lightning-quick, soundless, shadowy flickers. Yet whenever the camera was actually on it, its motions became a drunken lurching stagger . . . most likely because the costume weighed about a ton and the poor stuntman could hardly walk in it at all. For this reason, between ourselves my friend Sean and I referred to the film as The Stealthy Lurcher Movie. I must have missed this movie, if you remember the name let us know.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on May 16, 2020 3:43:02 GMT -5
Indeed. Of course, a dog that's properly treated will often consider its human companions part of its pack, and in some cases will envision one of them as the Alpha. That would be a factor in determining how an Awakened dog might treat its master. The human part of the equation moves from the right thing to do, to the only thing to do. I deliberately established myself as the Alpha when we brought home our dog at 6 weeks and about 10 pounds. Now she is 10+ years old and 80 pounds half lab and half pit.Gentle and friendly to every human she meets and deadly to varmints that want to eat my garden.
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Post by mao on May 16, 2020 4:34:08 GMT -5
Indeed. Of course, a dog that's properly treated will often consider its human companions part of its pack, and in some cases will envision one of them as the Alpha. That would be a factor in determining how an Awakened dog might treat its master. The human part of the equation moves from the right thing to do, to the only thing to do. I deliberately established myself as the Alpha when we brought home our dog at 6 weeks and about 10 pounds. Now she is 10+ years old and 80 pounds half lab and half pit.Gentle and friendly to every human she meets and deadly to varmints that want to eat my garden. Dogs can be mistreated and they will still stay loyal to the pack, happens al the time
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Post by randyb on May 17, 2020 11:51:19 GMT -5
The thing about the owner "interpreting" applies to all those apes who can supposedly use Human Sign Language, too, I feel. They're clearly intelligent and sometimes sign accurately, but when they (often) get it wrong the trainers will say "Oh he's just playing. He's so silly" or some such to discount the error. They seem to be emotionally invested in the idea that these apes can communicate on a Human level, and to me that's not an impartial nor scientific way to approach such projects. Obviously, in a fantasy setting, these things can become more believable or even actually real. Depending on what supplements or homebrew spells you use in D&D, the process of "Awakening" an animal is a thing. You run into the "I, Robot" problem when you make them too smart, though. Or maybe a "Planet of the Apes" or whatever analogy you wish to use. When you elevate something to Human levels of sentience and expect them to continue to act as indentured servants or for your personal amusement, that's when bad things happen. That's the fine line that ye olde wizard researcher faces in the worlds of fantasy. You can have a servant who is very intelligent and creative, or one who is slavish and loyal, but the lines become very blurred when you try to combine those traits, and one side's gonna win out. That's a major factor in the background of my current homebrew setting, which was part of why a major human civilization fell a few thousand years ago. "Planet of the Apes", yeah. One of three. A summoning, an uplifting, and an interbreeding.
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