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Post by ripx187 on May 1, 2020 13:38:28 GMT -5
I have bought into the 5th Edition of Dungeons & Dragons. I know that this place is for old-school discussions, however, I consider all of you to be friends. Thus! You are stuck with me. I also believe that the ruleset which we use, as stand alone products, isn’t old-school. We, the users of the said products, are the old-school element. As soon as we start using a ruleset or supplement it begins to evolve. We play with it and we make it ours. This goes for all table top RPGs. The cool thing about our hobby, and especially this BBS, is that you can hand us all the same packet of rules that we have to follow, but each of us are going to come up with something completely different and amazing. I think that that is the root of any good system! I like products that ask a lot of me.
I believe that I reviewed 5e somewhere around here, if I didn’t than we can sum it up by just saying that I like it. It embraces player agency and role-playing. I am an odd duck in these circles as I’ve always enjoyed back stories and what they bring to the table. I like writing for the players and enjoy throwing things at the PCs to see what sticks. Marry the characters into the setting, plug them in right away! Backstories give the players an opportunity to become an active participant in the process right from the beginning. We all know that the best ideas in our games are usually the one’s that we steal from the players. I think that 5e makes this easier for players to do just that.
That said, I wanted to look at the system in action. I read lots of reviews for current modules and decided to go with “Tyranny of Dragons” because it interested me the most. It is a reprint of the only module created for the system that wasn’t based on previous systems. The original was written at the same time as the ruleset was being finalized, and it was released before the DMG and the MM. It also contains two very different modules, one which is linear and one that is a high level sandbox. I went with it because I needed more examples to review and this offered a different take for a high-level campaign which I feel that I need. It also sounds like fun to throw a dragon at low level players just to see what they do.
This module was also desirable for me because it asks a lot of the DM. It isn’t anywhere near complete. My wife looked at the book and declared that it was the largest module that she had ever seen. Flipping through it, it isn’t like any of the modules in my collection. It is a collection of NPCs, a large and wonderful backstory, and a few places to have some amazing adventures in. It will also teach me new skills. It has the classic path of Local, Kingdom, World hero paths which is fun, but it also has a political style of play which I don’t have much experience with. It is familiar and different all at the same time!
It will be a while before I start to run it, but that is okay because it will take a while to absorb the material in it. My own game, which I promiced the players wouldn’t end prematurely, is still on but I have no idea where it is going to go since the theme was going to be a pandemic, but I just don’t have the stomach for that anymore. The current game will help us master the rules, then we can take on a difficult and dangerous game.
Let me keep reading it, and I’ll put my thoughts down as I go. I will say that it is exciting to have such an epic and amazing story. I’ve always wanted to do one, but just couldn’t pull it off.
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Post by El Borak on May 2, 2020 5:59:50 GMT -5
I don't think you have posted a review of 5E, but I would love to see it. Tyranny of Dragons is a fantastic name and I look forward to reading as you post about it. I am curious to see if this module because of its size is about to be less railroady than modules tend to be. Maybe this one has a lot of jumping off points that would make it easy to tie into a campaign.
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Post by ripx187 on May 3, 2020 12:12:57 GMT -5
It is epic in scale, an event that spans the entire continent right away. At the 'local level' a play path is provided to give insight on how to begin. The Cult of the Dragon is amassing a tremendous horde of wealth, the module begins play at a town of no consequence and features an attack that I don't think that any DM would have the audacity to ever throw at low level characters, but it has secrets at play inside of it that allows the characters to interact with it. It is inspiring!
This scene is already notorious for those who have played it. It is deadly, and I think that this version has been tamed down some from the original but WOW! Fans have called it, The Long Night. There is no point in this attack that allows you to rest and reclaim spells and hps. There is a quest giver inside, the ruler of the town who sees these heroes as the best chance that the town has of surviving this. He directs traffic, IF the players helped a family into the Keep, which is up to the DM to get them there. Strategically this makes the most sense, but the players have just entered this world and were thrown right into this mess. Getting the players to enter a town that they are not invested in yet with their 1st level hit points, that is being brutally attacked and burned by an army AND an adult blue dragon is pretty nuts. Much of it is up to you, the book just gives you some hints and describes what is going on.
This chapter is modular, but even then the players can attempt to complete missions in any order. Hack and Slash tactics are not going to work here, you'll be over whelmed and killed if you try them, the DM has to describe the scene accurately so that the players can come up with a plan. The dice do play a big part in this scene, they'll either bless or curse you keeping the DM honest. Inexperienced players would need some help and fudging from the DM, but players who have been at this a while shouldn't need much handholding at all, just the quest giver who has more knowledge about the town than the PCs do.
It is a brilliant and daring design! What appears to be a slaughter is actually a puzzle. It can also be ran without much side work from the DM. Running a module is never easy, but it can be rewarding.
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Post by ripx187 on May 4, 2020 15:06:44 GMT -5
I guess that what strikes me the most is how it addresses the reader. It encourages you to expand, and you'll need to. What this book is, is a collection of amazing places, small maps that you can use over and over again, quick NPCs, lots and lots of secrets for the players to learn. The story itself is really good! The Cult of the Dragon, a group that is normally associated with creating dracoliches, is amassing a treasure horde for the goddess of evil dragons with the intent of pulling her from her prison in hell.
The teaching points of the module are really good. A small group of religious nuts, funded by dragons hires an army of thousands of mercenary companies and monsters. They create cells to steal treasure while masking themselves off as common bandits. It goes on to show how a large army can move through the map virtually undetected.
People say that following the movements of this cell is railroading, however finding what is going on and discovering the goals of this operation is more important that just cutting off a finger. At the high level of play it becomes a political struggle. The problem is too big for just a team of adventurers, it is going to take as many factions as one can muster to counter attack, and naturally, these people with the men aren't going to like working with each other. What looks like a thick book for a module is actually very thin for what it aims to do.
Many of my games tend to lean towards war, but my methods aren't as interactive as I would prefer them to be. I really dig this thing! I personally have little experience with political gameplay, I got a better grasp on the idea through reading Game of Thrones, but this resource, I hope, will help me find the proper direction.
Why 5th Edition?
I really dig the philosophy behind the game. I am very critical of myself when it comes to DMing and I feel that I have become stagnant. 5e not just gives you rules for the game, but presents theories within the game to get the most out of playing. I'm an old hand at this! The information is stuff that I have found to be true through experience, but it was fleeting. I really like how the procedures are broken down and described in such a clear way.
Besides just being fun, after all we can take the 5e philosophies and apply them to any ruleset, this game is shorter. My club plays so infrequently that it can take years to gain a level under the 2e ruleset. A faster progression for us actually makes more sense than what I had given it credit for.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on May 5, 2020 13:43:24 GMT -5
Tell us more about what you think the 5E philosophy is? And then contrast that to OD&D so we are clear about why you like 5E? I am not seeing what you are viewing as philosophy.
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Post by ripx187 on May 6, 2020 11:57:42 GMT -5
Tell us more about what you think the 5E philosophy is? And then contrast that to OD&D so we are clear about why you like 5E? I am not seeing what you are viewing as philosophy. I don't think that there is a difference between the two philosophies. D&D is D&D. When the DM sits down to create the process of creation is not going to change. 5e tells you that there are three pillars, three basic elements that should be in every game to maximize the time spent designing and playing the game. Combat, exploration, and social interaction. These are the touch points which makes D&D interactive and entertaining. These are the basic building blocks that should always be there. None of the philosophies are new, it is nice to have them there in print so that you can keep refreshing them in your mind as you are working. They are things that I've done and developed over time and experience, but sometimes didn't use because I didn't identify them specifically yet, and my game suffered for it. Many of these ideas mark a drastic change from AD&D that did its best to hide the system, or make it more complex than it had to be. 5e really encourages you to DIY and is structured in such a way that makes doing it easy. The user is encouraged to change the rules to form a campaign that they and the players want to play. It really went back to the basics. As far as 0D&D goes, I enjoy the speed of play, but I missed the complex variety available. I also got overwhelmed by having too much to do. Granted, I probably did that to myself. I have also cemented an opinion that rules are an important part of the process. I am still going to have to make up mechanics on the fly, I am still going to have to improve 85% of the material while playing the game, and I really want the players to know what they are doing and have faith that they can predict what is going to happen. I don't want to be caught making it up.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on May 6, 2020 16:44:52 GMT -5
Tell us more about what you think the 5E philosophy is? And then contrast that to OD&D so we are clear about why you like 5E? I am not seeing what you are viewing as philosophy. I am still going to have to make up mechanics on the fly, I am still going to have to improve 85% of the material while playing the game, and I really want the players to know what they are doing and have faith that they can predict what is going to happen. I don't want to be caught making it up. I on the other hand enjoy having the players trust that they will be treated fairly, not favored or un-favored and that they get to try to stump me and watch me not get stumped on the fly. That watching me make up anything that is needed on the fly is part of the entertainment and draw of the game.
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Post by ripx187 on Jun 1, 2020 17:13:44 GMT -5
I finished reading it and it is a great story! If you were to play it as is you'd have to use the Milestone method, but where is the fun in that? The places described are great and it is places which the players will want to go to. I think that a lot of less experienced DMs had a problem with just how far apart these places are from one another. Travel for my group is a lot of fun, not everybody feels this way.
The book has examples of how monsters live and ideas on how to manage them. Of course you've got the evil dragons, an icon of D&D! The players will deal with them out in the open and there are a couple of examples of going into a dragon's lair with maps and how they function. Seeing how the pros do it, and allowing it to come alive at the table is inspiring. I've read a few books on dragons, but this is a case of lots and lots of dragons in action. In no case will the dragon fight to the death willingly, except for Tiamat at the end who has no choice. The conclusion to the module is epic as all get out and the chances of Tiamat being defeated is determined by how well the players have played the game, but even if you play it perfectly. . . well, if you play it perfectly than Tiamat's escape from hell will fail, but if the badguys are allowed to pull it off (a very very very good chance) and if you have Tiamat at her weakest, the chances of winning are still up to the dice.
Besides giving us cool ideas for dragons and their place in the world, we also get a fun scenario with lizardfolk serving bullywogs in a famous ruined castle. I find this really handy because I've got good ideas about bringing goblin cultures to life, but not much with lizardmen, who under normal circumstances would not put up with bullywog shenanigans, and seeing this whole thing come to life is a lot of fun! I've read multiple entries in the Monster Manuals over the years, but it is always fun to see that information be realized on the page and in a way that I probably wouldn't have thought to had done.
Another cool example is the lair of a cloud giant, a flying fortress that is fully mapped and detailed. It describes it how it normally is and how it is being used now. Wrapping my head around a huge castle in the sky was something that I had never really thought about. I really dig it!
The book also does a fair job of detailing the Cult of the Dragon, which has been around for a long time. A lot of 5e books don't really retread old territory, the books in your collection in regards to setting and creatures are still useful, these haven't been replaced so that is cool. All of the better known factions of the Forgotten Realms are introduced and updated. There is still research or creativity involved to bring the Cult alive, but for this scenario it focuses on an NPC whose idea of the cult is different from the original masters. In my copy there is bonus artwork which has images which can be used to identify a ranking system within the cult itself.
The stat blocks in the book are nice. Generating combat ready NPCs is a bit difficult, it always has been, especially when the NPCs can cast spells. I think that you get 4 basic ranks of Cult members of different levels which form a good templet to modify if/when you see fit. Generating spell lists for enemy clerics and mages is something that I always hated doing, so it is nice that I get something to work with here.
I think that this campaign scenario is exciting and pays off on many levels. We can use the ideas presented in it to have a great time. It also practices many of the philosophies of the game, pointing out that once the adventure is officially over, it is never over. Either you have Tiamat officially taking over the realm, or you have a tremendous horde of treasure that everybody under the sun knows about.
Finding products that are suitable and challenging for experienced Dungeon Masters is difficult, but I think that this module fits that bill pretty good! It makes for a great toolbox and helps us aim to complete a real campaign, including the upper levels.
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