Post by Admin Pete on Jun 25, 2015 9:38:31 GMT -5
I saw this over on Fin's site and thought we could talk about it here also:
Tales from the Rocket House #86: Ten Essential Elements of Old School D&D
See also (re Walking Dead comment above) Tales from the Rocket House #84: The Walking D&Dead
and also see Tales from the Rocket House #85: Mod, Mod, Mod, Mod World
Thread One - B/X Misadventures in randomly generated dungeons aka Fellowship of the Bling Volume I
Thread Two - B/X Misadventures: Fellowship of the Bling Volume II
Tales from the Rocket House #86: Ten Essential Elements of Old School D&D
I talked about how easy and common it is to modify older versions of D&D (white box, red box, etc.) in my last column. And that leads me to the question: how much can you modify and still have it be, fundamentally, the Old-School Dungeons & Dragons experience?
Different people will answer this question differently, but this is how I see it:
1) The first level meat grinder. First level characters have to be fragile, and you probably need to lose some (or even a lot) of them before you get to second level. I think this pretty much requires experience and advancement to be handled by a level system. Ongoing incremental advances would not have the same psychological “feel.”
If you're not sure what I'm talking about, this actual play thread captures that “feel” better than I ever could: Thread One - B/X Misadventures in randomly generated dungeons aka Fellowship of the Bling Volume I (Thread title is my edit/Admin)
This also requires that the player characters start off fragile (easily killed) and increase in toughness pretty rapidly. This doesn't by definition require a hit point system, but a hit point system has done the job well for roughly 40 years, and a wound-based system would need to deliver a serious benefit to be worth the trouble of converting all the existing pre-made NPCs and mosters.
2) Dungeoneering, at least for the first several levels. In my mind, D&D isn't a game of epic adventure, nor is it a game of political maneuvering. It's not a game for replaying stories. It's a game of dungeoneering, at least for the first several levels. Any PC's who survive to 10th level can start building strongholds and establishing kingdoms, but not at the beginning.
3) Player Skill. Most of all, D&D is a game. “But my character would know that” or “but your character wouldn't know that” aren't really relevant here. The players have to be able to take their gloves off and play with their entire minds, and conversely, they can't expect to let the dice do their thinking for them.
4) Characters who can't do it all alone, and need to work in groups. This is handled in the game by the class system, but it doesn't technically have to be a class system. Still, any non-class system would need to be broadly drawn enough that characters would have their niches and would need each others' help.
5) Experience points for finding treasure more than for killing. Lots of games are about beating up the bad guys. But Old-School D&D is actually more realistic … in that it's much smarter for player characters to try to avoid fighting. You get the same XP for that chest of gold whether you sneak it out or fight your way out, if you sneak it out, you don't end up losing half your party.
6) The reaction chart and the ability to talk/bribe/lie your way out of a fighting. Related to #5, even if you can't sneak past the monsters and NPC's, it doesn't mean you have to fight them. You may be able to avoid it, and you want to avoid it. Some editions even recommend giving XP for conversationally “getting past” monsters. Also, the morale checks for NPCs/monsters mean you can win fights without everything fighting to the death.
7) In other words, Old-School D&D is exploration and heist, not “kill them and take their stuff.” At least, that's how I see it. You're not just “heroes” killing “monsters” because “we're good” and “they're' bad” because the alignment chart says so. You're not killing at all if you can help it. You're getting in, getting the goods, and getting gone, hopefully without too many of your group getting dead. I compared it to The Walking Dead earlier, and I might also mention Leverage.
8) It's not epic, world-saving adventuring, either. It's not a simplified to the point of insipid stupidity Tolkien rip-off (elves good, orcs baa-ad), but something more complex and less epic. Beginning characters aren't out to save the world. They're not anywhere near being able to even think about saving the world. They're looking to survive long enough to get a little money and power so they can maybe reach a point where they can have some actual influence in their corner of the world … and they're willing to risk a thousand gruesome deaths to make it happen.
9) Unfair, unbalanced, unpredictable. There aren't just 1 HD monsters on the first level of the dungeon. That sword you found may make you a much greater warrior, or it may take over your mind. One failed saving throw may end it all. Paladins and Psychics are extremely powerful, but you have to roll just right to be able to make them. Random character creation is a big part of this, though it might not technically have to be.
10) You're Never Safe. The danger doesn't end when the first level meat grinder does. The characters aren't safe at second or even third level. Wights attack, draining levels. Save-or-die effects abound. Dragon fire can wipe out an entire sixth or seventh level party in one attack. There's not really a point in which the PC's can rush in brashly, shooting first and checking for pit traps later. At least not until they're such high levels that their either leading armies (OD&D) or meddling in the affairs of demigods (later editions).
These are my ten “essential elements” of Old-School Dungeons & Dragons. You may disagree. But I think that any modifications that are made need to respect these core elements, or they lose the very thing that made OD&D so interesting in the first place.
But these are the very things that so many “newer editions” or “D&D-like” games (like Palladium Fantasy Roleplaying) or “Heartbreaker” homebrews often abandon. These core elements are often mistaken for faults or bugs, for accidents rather than touchstones. And when they are “fixed,” we find games that are much less interesting, and (incidentally and ironically) typically not any better and re-creating Tolkien.
Different people will answer this question differently, but this is how I see it:
1) The first level meat grinder. First level characters have to be fragile, and you probably need to lose some (or even a lot) of them before you get to second level. I think this pretty much requires experience and advancement to be handled by a level system. Ongoing incremental advances would not have the same psychological “feel.”
If you're not sure what I'm talking about, this actual play thread captures that “feel” better than I ever could: Thread One - B/X Misadventures in randomly generated dungeons aka Fellowship of the Bling Volume I (Thread title is my edit/Admin)
This also requires that the player characters start off fragile (easily killed) and increase in toughness pretty rapidly. This doesn't by definition require a hit point system, but a hit point system has done the job well for roughly 40 years, and a wound-based system would need to deliver a serious benefit to be worth the trouble of converting all the existing pre-made NPCs and mosters.
2) Dungeoneering, at least for the first several levels. In my mind, D&D isn't a game of epic adventure, nor is it a game of political maneuvering. It's not a game for replaying stories. It's a game of dungeoneering, at least for the first several levels. Any PC's who survive to 10th level can start building strongholds and establishing kingdoms, but not at the beginning.
3) Player Skill. Most of all, D&D is a game. “But my character would know that” or “but your character wouldn't know that” aren't really relevant here. The players have to be able to take their gloves off and play with their entire minds, and conversely, they can't expect to let the dice do their thinking for them.
4) Characters who can't do it all alone, and need to work in groups. This is handled in the game by the class system, but it doesn't technically have to be a class system. Still, any non-class system would need to be broadly drawn enough that characters would have their niches and would need each others' help.
5) Experience points for finding treasure more than for killing. Lots of games are about beating up the bad guys. But Old-School D&D is actually more realistic … in that it's much smarter for player characters to try to avoid fighting. You get the same XP for that chest of gold whether you sneak it out or fight your way out, if you sneak it out, you don't end up losing half your party.
6) The reaction chart and the ability to talk/bribe/lie your way out of a fighting. Related to #5, even if you can't sneak past the monsters and NPC's, it doesn't mean you have to fight them. You may be able to avoid it, and you want to avoid it. Some editions even recommend giving XP for conversationally “getting past” monsters. Also, the morale checks for NPCs/monsters mean you can win fights without everything fighting to the death.
7) In other words, Old-School D&D is exploration and heist, not “kill them and take their stuff.” At least, that's how I see it. You're not just “heroes” killing “monsters” because “we're good” and “they're' bad” because the alignment chart says so. You're not killing at all if you can help it. You're getting in, getting the goods, and getting gone, hopefully without too many of your group getting dead. I compared it to The Walking Dead earlier, and I might also mention Leverage.
8) It's not epic, world-saving adventuring, either. It's not a simplified to the point of insipid stupidity Tolkien rip-off (elves good, orcs baa-ad), but something more complex and less epic. Beginning characters aren't out to save the world. They're not anywhere near being able to even think about saving the world. They're looking to survive long enough to get a little money and power so they can maybe reach a point where they can have some actual influence in their corner of the world … and they're willing to risk a thousand gruesome deaths to make it happen.
9) Unfair, unbalanced, unpredictable. There aren't just 1 HD monsters on the first level of the dungeon. That sword you found may make you a much greater warrior, or it may take over your mind. One failed saving throw may end it all. Paladins and Psychics are extremely powerful, but you have to roll just right to be able to make them. Random character creation is a big part of this, though it might not technically have to be.
10) You're Never Safe. The danger doesn't end when the first level meat grinder does. The characters aren't safe at second or even third level. Wights attack, draining levels. Save-or-die effects abound. Dragon fire can wipe out an entire sixth or seventh level party in one attack. There's not really a point in which the PC's can rush in brashly, shooting first and checking for pit traps later. At least not until they're such high levels that their either leading armies (OD&D) or meddling in the affairs of demigods (later editions).
These are my ten “essential elements” of Old-School Dungeons & Dragons. You may disagree. But I think that any modifications that are made need to respect these core elements, or they lose the very thing that made OD&D so interesting in the first place.
But these are the very things that so many “newer editions” or “D&D-like” games (like Palladium Fantasy Roleplaying) or “Heartbreaker” homebrews often abandon. These core elements are often mistaken for faults or bugs, for accidents rather than touchstones. And when they are “fixed,” we find games that are much less interesting, and (incidentally and ironically) typically not any better and re-creating Tolkien.
See also (re Walking Dead comment above) Tales from the Rocket House #84: The Walking D&Dead
and also see Tales from the Rocket House #85: Mod, Mod, Mod, Mod World
Thread One - B/X Misadventures in randomly generated dungeons aka Fellowship of the Bling Volume I
Thread Two - B/X Misadventures: Fellowship of the Bling Volume II
