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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Aug 5, 2019 21:50:34 GMT -5
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Post by ripx187 on Aug 9, 2019 18:12:07 GMT -5
I agree with much that the op says. Back when I was young and gamed for hours and hours every week I think that I could do a lot more with the information that Rob wrote about, but that isn't the case anymore. Today, as an adult, and refereeing for other busy adults, we don't have the luxurary of unlimited time. We only get a few hours once or twice a month so I think that it isn't fair if I am completely unprepared and have no idea what we'll be doing on any given session.
That said, the lessons presented in the book are not lost on me. The game does require closed systems to function, these are mine to choose and play with as I see fit. I'm not afraid to open things up when I can, but one of my jobs at my table, with my players, is to keep things running at a pace. Time is valueable to us.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Aug 11, 2019 19:31:34 GMT -5
I agree with much that the op says. Back when I was young and gamed for hours and hours every week I think that I could do a lot more with the information that Rob wrote about, but that isn't the case anymore. Today, as an adult, and refereeing for other busy adults, we don't have the luxury of unlimited time. We only get a few hours once or twice a month so I think that it isn't fair if I am completely unprepared and have no idea what we'll be doing on any given session. That said, the lessons presented in the book are not lost on me. The game does require closed systems to function, these are mine to choose and play with as I see fit. I'm not afraid to open things up when I can, but one of my jobs at my table, with my players, is to keep things running at a pace. Time is valuable to us. Having the ability to game for hours and hours every week, that was incredible in those days. I keep the game as open as I possibly can and while I do little prep and run my style of improv, keeping the game moving at a fast pace in the face to face game is vital IMO to immersion. |
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Post by ripx187 on Aug 13, 2019 10:19:15 GMT -5
Open systems are where the game truly happens. The decisions which aren't in the books, the actions which the DM wasn't prepared for. A closed system is a judge of its own. I do prefer systems which allow the users to pick and alter what closed systems are in play. A player who demands that every rule for any given system be strictly adhered to, this person is probably at the wrong table.
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Post by mao on Aug 13, 2019 10:39:47 GMT -5
Open systems are where the game truly happens. The decisions which aren't in the books, the actions which the DM wasn't prepared for. A closed system is a judge of its own. I do prefer systems which allow the users to pick and alter what closed systems are in play. A player who demands that every rule for any given system be strictly adhered to, this person is probably at the wrong table. One exault coming your way! |
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Post by El Borak on Aug 13, 2019 21:00:55 GMT -5
Some excellent commentary there!
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Post by bravewolf on Mar 31, 2021 0:49:14 GMT -5
Well, hide my shoes and call me late to the party, but I just purchased a copy of DATG. I didn’t expect to be impressed (compositional gripes that I won’t go into here) and am happy to be surprised by this little book. Kuntz’s thesis strikes me as novel in treatments of the old game. What I really want to know is whether Kuntz is still working on A New Ethos in Game Design. I hope that Kuntz hasn’t abandoned the project.
Does anybody here know about the status? Three Line Studio’s webpage hasn’t mentioned the book since 2018 or 2019.
Cheers,
Gabriel
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Mar 31, 2021 2:46:28 GMT -5
Well, hide my shoes and call me late to the party, but I just purchased a copy of DATG. I didn’t expect to be impressed (compositional gripes that I won’t go into here) and am happy to be surprised by this little book. Kuntz’s thesis strikes me as novel in treatments of the old game. What I really want to know is whether Kuntz is still working on A New Ethos in Game Design. I hope that Kuntz hasn’t abandoned the project. Does anybody here know about the status? Three Line Studio’s webpage hasn’t mentioned the book since 2018 or 2019. Cheers, Gabriel Hey bravewolf , great to hear from you! If you have a copy, maybe we can get some discussion going on DATG. As for A New Ethos in Game Design I do not know if he is working on it now or not. He was trying to get money together to move back to the US just before COVID hit. Right now he has several contracts he just started, one for gaming stuff and three for (I think) non gaming stuff. I will try to ask him about A New Ethos in Game Design. I will see what I can find out. |
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Post by bravewolf on Mar 31, 2021 12:43:32 GMT -5
I do have a copy of DATG and just finished reading it last night, @the Perilous Dreamer. I'm keen to get a discussion going on the book.
Thanks for offering to check in with RJK. I wonder if the release of Peterson's The Elusive Shift prompted Kuntz to take another look at his own work.
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Post by Traveroark on Mar 31, 2021 14:14:19 GMT -5
I do have a copy of DATG and just finished reading it last night, @the Perilous Dreamer. I'm keen to get a discussion going on the book. Thanks for offering to check in with RJK. I wonder if the release of Peterson's The Elusive Shift prompted Kuntz to take another look at his own work. Did not even know about this book The Elusive Shift: How Role-Playing Games Forged Their Identity. This book is just another reason for me to dislike Jon Peterson. It is really odd that Peterson would make this claim as it is an indisputable fact that a new genre of games was established the moment that D&D was published in January of 1974. The application of terminology by players and "scholars" to D&D is and was irrelevant. Terminology being applied to something that already exists is NOT a creative act. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Mar 31, 2021 15:59:06 GMT -5
Hey bravewolf, I contacted Rob and am waiting on a reply. |
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Post by bravewolf on Mar 31, 2021 21:11:22 GMT -5
I do have a copy of DATG and just finished reading it last night, @the Perilous Dreamer. I'm keen to get a discussion going on the book. Thanks for offering to check in with RJK. I wonder if the release of Peterson's The Elusive Shift prompted Kuntz to take another look at his own work. Did not even know about this book The Elusive Shift: How Role-Playing Games Forged Their Identity. This book is just another reason for me to dislike Jon Peterson. It is really odd that Peterson would make this claim as it is an indisputable fact that a new genre of games was established the moment that D&D was published in January of 1974. The application of terminology by players and "scholars" to D&D is and was irrelevant. Terminology being applied to something that already exists is NOT a creative act. I haven’t read The Elusive Shift and won’t comment on it until I have read it. I only brought up the book because it sounds like it might topically overlap with Kuntz’s A New Ethos in Game Design. As such, I thought it possible that Kuntz might be taking extra time with his book to account for Peterson’s recent publication. I was speculating. But let’s talk about Dave Arneson’s True Genius! I’ll start with some general observations. The book’s thesis is ambitious, applying systems theory to the genesis and practice of Arnesonian D&D. Has anybody here seen an application of systems theory to this topic before DATG? I would have found it useful if Kuntz had provided real-life examples of Arnesonian D&D in action to illustrate DATG’s abstract discussion of Arneson’s system architecture. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Apr 3, 2021 1:00:25 GMT -5
I haven’t read The Elusive Shift and won’t comment on it until I have read it. I only brought up the book because it sounds like it might topically overlap with Kuntz’s A New Ethos in Game Design. As such, I thought it possible that Kuntz might be taking extra time with his book to account for Peterson’s recent publication. I was speculating. But let’s talk about Dave Arneson’s True Genius! I’ll start with some general observations. The book’s thesis is ambitious, applying systems theory to the genesis and practice of Arnesonian D&D. Has anybody here seen an application of systems theory to this topic before DATG? I would have found it useful if Kuntz had provided real-life examples of Arnesonian D&D in action to illustrate DATG’s abstract discussion of Arneson’s system architecture. I haven't read T he Elusive Shift either. bravewolf , I heard back from Rob. He recently licensed quite a bit of stuff to Paul Stormberg of his rpg stuff and reserved some stuff as a future option, if he ever returns to doing anything rpg related. Right now he is going a different direction and pursuing a lot of other stuff as soon as he finished so stuff he has contracted to do. (I will post more about this in another thread when I have more info) A New Ethos in Game Design and related projects have been suspended from further development and if I understood correctly these are among some of the IP that has been licensed to Paul Stormberg's companies. Please don't quote me. I will be looking to see what else I can find out. But right now it does not look like these will be seen anytime soon or if so not in fully finished versions. Speaking of DATG no one has ever tried to do anything like this before. Systems theory has not been on anyone's radar. The real life examples of which you speak were as I understood it, to be part of later books that were planned. |
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Post by Traveroark on May 29, 2021 1:14:38 GMT -5
bravewolf, I think you and PD are the only ones that have the book. Maybe both of you could post about your impressions and some of what you think are the most important points.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on May 29, 2021 8:47:19 GMT -5
bravewolf , I think you and PD are the only ones that have the book. Maybe both of you could post about your impressions and some of what you think are the most important points. That would be great! The book is on my buy list... |
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Post by Iucounu on May 29, 2021 14:06:04 GMT -5
I have been interested in reading this book for a long time but it's really a shame that it's only sold from the US with no pdf/ebook option. I have considered buying it but since it is above the VAT triviality limit of my country of $13 it would effectively cost me ($15 book + $31 shipping + $12 VAT (of value+shipping) + $26 VAT fee) $84 in total. That is a bit more than I am willing to offer for a 72 page book. I just hope it will be made available in pdf/ebook or that I can find it on sale for $13 or below at some point in the future  |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on May 29, 2021 15:06:43 GMT -5
I have been interested in reading this book for a long time but it's really a shame that it's only sold from the US with no pdf/ebook option. I have considered buying it but since it is above the VAT triviality limit of my country of $13 it would effectively cost me ($15 book + $31 shipping + $12 VAT (of value+shipping) + $26 VAT fee) $84 in total. That is a bit more than I am willing to offer for a 72 page book. I just hope it will be made available in pdf/ebook or that I can find it on sale for $13 or below at some point in the future why does it cost $31.00 for shipping, that seems terribly high for a slim volume even for International shipping. Two separate VAT taxes for a total of $48 which is more than triple the cost of the item, that is brutal. I am afraid it will be a long time before RJK puts it in pdf, he needs to sell out the first printing at the very least and I am not sure he would then. Do you pay VAT tax if you make a gift payment to an individual, then they buy it and ship it to you? What country are you in? |
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Post by Iucounu on May 30, 2021 13:22:34 GMT -5
The Perilous Dreamer yep. The shipping cost of TLB is pretty standard for books I think. I just received a quote on eBay yesterday of $30 for shipping a Judges Guild module from a bookshop in Florida, but that book is really the worst possible combination in relation to import laws. I live in Denmark and the rules are pretty simple:
If the value of the item (not shipping) exceeds the triviality limit of 80 DKK (~$13) a VAT of 25% of item plus shipping value is applied. The postal service is in charge of checking all packages and securing that VAT are paid. They charge a flat 160 DKK (~$26) on each package on which they apply VAT.
I guess the fee is to cover their costs of "paperwork" and time it takes them to check all packages, but that flat fee is just insane for something that barely exceeds the triviality limit. If the book was discounted $2, it would effectively end up saving me $40.
The rules for receiving gifts from private individuals differ a bit. They are in essence the same, but have a triviality limit of 360 DKK ($59), so in this case it is actually a pretty good idea. If I knew someone in the US who could do that I would be happy to hear from them |
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Post by Death Even XIII on Jun 1, 2021 16:33:57 GMT -5
Iucounu, so are you getting something worked out? Are you getting a copy? If four of you have it, that is enough to have a good discussion.
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Post by bravewolf on Jun 3, 2021 20:42:54 GMT -5
bravewolf, I think you and PD are the only ones that have the book. Maybe both of you could post about your impressions and some of what you think are the most important points. Well, I am finally done moving house and just unpacked the book in question. Impressions are finally possible to disseminate- after a quick second read! |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Jun 4, 2021 12:42:34 GMT -5
bravewolf , I think you and PD are the only ones that have the book. Maybe both of you could post about your impressions and some of what you think are the most important points. Well, I am finally done moving house and just unpacked the book in question. Impressions are finally possible to disseminate- after a quick second read! Glad you move is done and that you are getting things unpacked! |
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Post by Iucounu on Jun 4, 2021 13:43:30 GMT -5
Iucounu , so are you getting something worked out? Are you getting a copy? If four of you have it, that is enough to have a good discussion. Yes. Thanks for thinking of me. It might take a while with shipping overseas but am really looking forward to reading it soon! |
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Post by Death Even XIII on Jun 4, 2021 20:38:11 GMT -5
Iucounu , so are you getting something worked out? Are you getting a copy? If four of you have it, that is enough to have a good discussion. Yes. Thanks for thinking of me. It might take a while with shipping overseas but am really looking forward to reading it soon! I am looking forward to seeing all of you talking about it. |
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Post by bravewolf on Jul 19, 2021 10:26:35 GMT -5
Howdy, all. I am making progress collecting my thoughts on DATG. I'm on my third read of it and am compiling notes as I go.
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Post by mao on Jul 21, 2021 5:14:15 GMT -5
Howdy, all. I am making progress collecting my thoughts on DATG. I'm on my third read of it and am compiling notes as I go. nice, looking forward to this |
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Post by moose on Jul 24, 2021 22:33:52 GMT -5
Howdy, all. I am making progress collecting my thoughts on DATG. I'm on my third read of it and am compiling notes as I go. I would really like to see what you and the other people who own the book have to say. |
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Post by hengest on Aug 4, 2021 23:01:19 GMT -5
I have been waiting for more commentary on this book and finally went to go peruse and think about getting it for myself...and I find that the site is under construction.
Does anyone know of a working link to purchase DATG, or does anyone have a copy they want to sell (not holding my breath on either one)?
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Aug 4, 2021 23:18:22 GMT -5
I have been waiting for more commentary on this book and finally went to go peruse and think about getting it for myself...and I find that the site is under construction. Does anyone know of a working link to purchase DATG, or does anyone have a copy they want to sell (not holding my breath on either one)? Hmm, I will have to look into that, it should still be for sale, may have to contact Paul Stormberg, I think he may be handling that now along with Rob's other game products as Rob pivots to other types of non-game items. |
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Aug 4, 2021 23:22:48 GMT -5
I have been waiting for more commentary on this book and finally went to go peruse and think about getting it for myself...and I find that the site is under construction. Does anyone know of a working link to purchase DATG, or does anyone have a copy they want to sell (not holding my breath on either one)? Hmm, I will have to look into that, it should still be for sale, may have to contact Paul Stormberg, I think he may be handling that now along with Rob's other game products as Rob pivots to other types of non-game items. The link seems to work for me www.tlbgames.com/products/dave-arnesons-true-genius you should be able to buy it at this link. $15 plus shipping, I don't recall if tax is included or not. BTW someone just sold a copy for $30 on ebay. |
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Post by hengest on Aug 4, 2021 23:27:12 GMT -5
Hmm, I will have to look into that, it should still be for sale, may have to contact Paul Stormberg, I think he may be handling that now along with Rob's other game products as Rob pivots to other types of non-game items. The link seems to work for me www.tlbgames.com/products/dave-arnesons-true-genius you should be able to buy it at this link. $15 plus shipping, I don't recall if tax is included or not. BTW someone just sold a copy for $30 on ebay. What on earth?..why didn't the link work for me until now? Well, thanks, PD. ...and maybe I'm not the only person having this problem if someone is paying double for it on ebay? |
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