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Post by mao on Jul 9, 2019 9:40:26 GMT -5
as many of you know, I play low lvel, topping out at about 5 0r 7 after 2 -4 years of play. As a result of this I have to give more juice to mages. My thoughts today are to give them 1-2 bonus 1st level spells and -6 cantrips from Pathfinder. Unlike Pathfinder I will not allow unlimited use of them thou, instead I would give each cantrip 1-4 uses(baseed on power of cantrip. The original cantrips are too weak and the 5e ones are way way overpowered. As suggested by Gygax, they could be forgoten once they go above 4 th or so9I wouldn't do this), this suggestion would be for a standard game.
Thoughts?
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Post by El Borak on Jul 12, 2019 12:24:54 GMT -5
Sounds interesting. I've never done this, what cantrips are you considering? What are the original ones you think are two weak and what are the 5E ones you think are way overpowered?
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Post by mao on Jul 12, 2019 13:47:33 GMT -5
Sounds interesting. I've never done this, what cantrips are you considering? What are the original ones you think are two weak and what are the 5E ones you think are way overpowered? in general all the Pathfinder ones would be acceptable some notable examples Hesitate; target gets a save, on a failure they lose thier next action(Seems very powerful but if you think about it, the mage is giving up his action to maybe cause another to lose thers) def one that could be used about 2-3 times(again the actual Pathfinder ones are unlimited use) Flare> target gets a save , if they fail they get -1 to hit for a few rounds (def one that I would allow 4 uses) Acid Orb> mage makes an attack roll at about +3, does d3 if it hits(4 uses) Detect Magic> I like having a zero L and a 1st L version of this. The zero L would just give a lmited yes or no, the first l version would function much as RAW The weak one from Unearthed Arcana include Hairy, makes target's hair grow Bee> summons angry ordinary Bee that you have no control of. Warm> warms a drink The ones that are too powerfull from 5E Most notably shocking grasp> does d8 electrical damage on hit9unlimited uses(COME ON A CANTRIP, Gary is spinning now)
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Post by El Borak on Jul 12, 2019 15:30:08 GMT -5
I like the warms your drink one. The making hair grow is silly and the angry bee could attack the caster, not cool.
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Post by mao on Jul 12, 2019 15:34:00 GMT -5
I like the warms your drink one. The making hair grow is silly and the angry bee could attack the caster, not cool. Prob the best of the UA ones are the ghostly sounds, actually has some combat value
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Post by El Borak on Jul 12, 2019 15:37:32 GMT -5
I like the warms your drink one. The making hair grow is silly and the angry bee could attack the caster, not cool. Prob the best of the UA ones are the ghostly sounds, actually has some combat value I like cantrips that are convenience types of things, I think Mages should have a whole slew of those. Those that help in combat should be few and not many uses. Ghostly sounds could help with an ambush.
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Post by ripx187 on Aug 3, 2019 15:25:27 GMT -5
2e Charged a first level slot for them, and they weren't allowed to do any hit point damage. My players, being used to this harder style of play didn't really use any of their spell slots while we played 5e; the cantrips being helpful enough. I have no problem with this as what is good for the goose is good for the gander, these are common and well-developed spells which are common in the world, the rarer ones are the ones which tax the user.
Shocking grasp is a touch spell. I don't know about you, but I try to keep my wizards out of melee range. If you do find yourself at the wrong end of a fight, Shocking grasp is a quick way to ward it off. It also alerts all of your enemies exactly what you are so that they can change their strategy.
I suppose that it has everything to do with the setting. If you want that high-magic feel, vs. magic is rare and dangerous you have decisions to make. I personally prefer spells of convenience and leisure to be fun cantrips, but I don't like to define exactly what they are. A wizard out on the street performing light tricks and earning money that way at the market is fine, but there is something about cantrips that harm others that I want to shy away from. I don't know if it is just my own prejudices and experiences with the game, or if this could change the nature of the world and how people view wizards.
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Post by mao on Aug 3, 2019 15:57:03 GMT -5
2e Charged a first level slot for them, and they weren't allowed to do any hit point damage. My players, being used to this harder style of play didn't really use any of their spell slots while we played 5e; the cantrips being helpful enough. I have no problem with this as what is good for the goose is good for the gander, these are common and well-developed spells which are common in the world, the rarer ones are the ones which tax the user. Shocking grasp is a touch spell. I don't know about you, but I try to keep my wizards out of melee range. If you do find yourself at the wrong end of a fight, Shocking grasp is a quick way to ward it off. It also alerts all of your enemies exactly what you are so that they can change their strategy. I suppose that it has everything to do with the setting. If you want that high-magic feel, vs. magic is rare and dangerous you have decisions to make. I personally prefer spells of convenience and leisure to be fun cantrips, but I don't like to define exactly what they are. A wizard out on the street performing light tricks and earning money that way at the market is fine, but there is something about cantrips that harm others that I want to shy away from. I don't know if it is just my own prejudices and experiences with the game, or if this could change the nature of the world and how people view wizards. I agree on most of what you are saying for an average game, but I like to play at lower levels. This means wiz need more juice if they are going no higher than 7th 99% of the time , and they might not get to 3rd after a year of play.That being said I am not a huge fan of cantrips causing damage either(although I created 2). in my twilight I would ake them each usable 1-4 times depending on power level.
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Post by ripx187 on Aug 3, 2019 16:25:13 GMT -5
2e Charged a first level slot for them, and they weren't allowed to do any hit point damage. My players, being used to this harder style of play didn't really use any of their spell slots while we played 5e; the cantrips being helpful enough. I have no problem with this as what is good for the goose is good for the gander, these are common and well-developed spells which are common in the world, the rarer ones are the ones which tax the user. Shocking grasp is a touch spell. I don't know about you, but I try to keep my wizards out of melee range. If you do find yourself at the wrong end of a fight, Shocking grasp is a quick way to ward it off. It also alerts all of your enemies exactly what you are so that they can change their strategy. I suppose that it has everything to do with the setting. If you want that high-magic feel, vs. magic is rare and dangerous you have decisions to make. I personally prefer spells of convenience and leisure to be fun cantrips, but I don't like to define exactly what they are. A wizard out on the street performing light tricks and earning money that way at the market is fine, but there is something about cantrips that harm others that I want to shy away from. I don't know if it is just my own prejudices and experiences with the game, or if this could change the nature of the world and how people view wizards. I agree on most of what you are saying for an average game, but I like to play at lower levels. This means wiz need more juice if they are going no higher than 7th 99% of the time , and they might not get to 3rd after a year of play.That being said I am not a huge fan of cantrips causing damage either(although I created 2). in my twilight I would ake them each usable 1-4 times depending on power level. I guess that I don't care about levels. my players prefer XP rewards over magic items or what-not. I don't allow players to skip levels, if you started out at first and earned enough xp during a game then you are second level and must pay somebody to train you to level up. You still earn xp based on your performance. If you are a tightwad and earn the XP to level up to 4th level but are only 2nd, then you become 3rd level. That whole XP for GP OD&D thing didn't work at my table. I had one player exploiting the system while the others fussed over dividing treasure and hated it. My parties are used to being more organized, assigning a treasurer who handles expenses so that they don't have to worry about that kind of stuff. To them, it is all about the story, and it does me no good to change that. I still run into problems, especially with wizards. I had this dumb rule where XP was limited by the lowest leveled character, but when you've got 1st level adventurers playing with 7th level parties, it becomes stupid. If I feel like robbing the company coffers, I'll allow buyouts, but typically I just allow the low level to skip levels unless they are playing a class that they aren't familiar with. Wizards can be difficult because the only spells that they have are the ones that they have found.
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Post by Admin Pete on Aug 3, 2019 19:59:41 GMT -5
That whole XP for GP OD&D thing didn't work at my table. I had one player exploiting the system while the others fussed over dividing treasure and hated it. My parties are used to being more organized, assigning a treasurer who handles expenses so that they don't have to worry about that kind of stuff. To them, it is all about the story, and it does me no good to change that. How was the player exploiting the system?
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Post by ripx187 on Aug 4, 2019 13:26:47 GMT -5
He knicked the best treasure for himself before anybody got a shot, and he didn't tell them. His favorite was snatching up all of the gems. Everyone else was playing a different game, he was playing a private one. The player in question was playing the wizard, so they kind of figured that he should get more, but he was obviously outclassing them.
It was no doubt my fault, and his greed would be punished from time to time with cursed items, but so what. It wasn't a big deal, but it did slow down the game because it was the players who were dishing out xp. They hated when they found a valuable gem, as it couldn't be divided up, so when the wizard didn't knick one it still made the others uncomfortable.
I did like not having to worry about it, but another problem arose that the players weren't doing their bookwork. They'd often forget that gp=xp, and not add it and then be unable to add it when they wondered why they weren't leveling up. Or they would level up and not update their character sheet. I had one character that qualified for 5th level and he was still on 2nd, he had no idea. I guess that he thought that I would just know when he advanced, or he was having so much fun that he just didn't notice; I'm not sure.
Lots of little mistakes added up quickly. I've had years to come up with my own way of recording xp earned as we play, the players didn't. The wizard was played by an 18-year-old, he grasped the system and never errored in record keeping, and wasn't afraid to bug me when it came to getting new spells and hp, and I'm sure that he was also adding a bit more than normal to his XP because they had to calculate their own bonuses for high stats as well. The majority of the players were always used to me figuring this stuff out at the end of the night.
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Post by El Borak on Aug 5, 2019 21:22:03 GMT -5
He knicked the best treasure for himself before anybody got a shot, and he didn't tell them. His favorite was snatching up all of the gems. Everyone else was playing a different game, he was playing a private one. The player in question was playing the wizard, so they kind of figured that he should get more, but he was obviously outclassing them. It was no doubt my fault, and his greed would be punished from time to time with cursed items, but so what. It wasn't a big deal, but it did slow down the game because it was the players who were dishing out xp. They hated when they found a valuable gem, as it couldn't be divided up, so when the wizard didn't knick one it still made the others uncomfortable. I did like not having to worry about it, but another problem arose that the players weren't doing their bookwork. They'd often forget that gp=xp, and not add it and then be unable to add it when they wondered why they weren't leveling up. Or they would level up and not update their character sheet. I had one character that qualified for 5th level and he was still on 2nd, he had no idea. I guess that he thought that I would just know when he advanced, or he was having so much fun that he just didn't notice; I'm not sure. Lots of little mistakes added up quickly. I've had years to come up with my own way of recording xp earned as we play, the players didn't. The wizard was played by an 18-year-old, he grasped the system and never errored in record keeping, and wasn't afraid to bug me when it came to getting new spells and hp, and I'm sure that he was also adding a bit more than normal to his XP because they had to calculate their own bonuses for high stats as well. The majority of the players were always used to me figuring this stuff out at the end of the night. Hmmm, odd that none of them got suspicious about the treasure being knicked. Even if you played that so that it was completely secret from the other players, if it was significant, you would think they would have caught on after a while.
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Post by ripx187 on Aug 6, 2019 23:44:26 GMT -5
He knicked the best treasure for himself before anybody got a shot, and he didn't tell them. His favorite was snatching up all of the gems. Everyone else was playing a different game, he was playing a private one. The player in question was playing the wizard, so they kind of figured that he should get more, but he was obviously outclassing them. It was no doubt my fault, and his greed would be punished from time to time with cursed items, but so what. It wasn't a big deal, but it did slow down the game because it was the players who were dishing out xp. They hated when they found a valuable gem, as it couldn't be divided up, so when the wizard didn't knick one it still made the others uncomfortable. I did like not having to worry about it, but another problem arose that the players weren't doing their bookwork. They'd often forget that gp=xp, and not add it and then be unable to add it when they wondered why they weren't leveling up. Or they would level up and not update their character sheet. I had one character that qualified for 5th level and he was still on 2nd, he had no idea. I guess that he thought that I would just know when he advanced, or he was having so much fun that he just didn't notice; I'm not sure. Lots of little mistakes added up quickly. I've had years to come up with my own way of recording xp earned as we play, the players didn't. The wizard was played by an 18-year-old, he grasped the system and never errored in record keeping, and wasn't afraid to bug me when it came to getting new spells and hp, and I'm sure that he was also adding a bit more than normal to his XP because they had to calculate their own bonuses for high stats as well. The majority of the players were always used to me figuring this stuff out at the end of the night. Hmmm, odd that none of them got suspicious about the treasure being knicked. Even if you played that so that it was completely secret from the other players, if it was significant, you would think they would have caught on after a while. Of course, the players knew, but the characters did not. He was always offering to be the first man in, having some charms ready if he encountered trouble. I suppose that I always took the risking my life tax too. I'd lift small art objects, if I could, before giving the all-clear, but rest assured, something from that chest was in my pouch before that happened.
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Post by El Borak on Aug 8, 2019 21:13:49 GMT -5
Hmmm, odd that none of them got suspicious about the treasure being knicked. Even if you played that so that it was completely secret from the other players, if it was significant, you would think they would have caught on after a while. Of course, the players knew, but the characters did not. He was always offering to be the first man in, having some charms ready if he encountered trouble. I suppose that I always took the risking my life tax too. I'd lift small art objects, if I could, before giving the all-clear, but rest assured, something from that chest was in my pouch before that happened. That's what I meant, the characters should have eventually have figured it out. I've never played with anyone who plays their character that way. As the DM I wouldn't care, but as a player running my character, I would care a lot if I caught someone.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Aug 19, 2019 15:02:21 GMT -5
I suppose that it has everything to do with the setting. If you want that high-magic feel, vs. magic is rare and dangerous you have decisions to make. I personally prefer spells of convenience and leisure to be fun cantrips, but I don't like to define exactly what they are. A wizard out on the street performing light tricks and earning money that way at the market is fine, but there is something about cantrips that harm others that I want to shy away from. I don't know if it is just my own prejudices and experiences with the game, or if this could change the nature of the world and how people view wizards. I think this is a very good point, how you run magic does a lot to define the nature of your world and how people would view wizards. I think of awe and fear of wizards, but not outright general hatred either. The average peasant should have a sense of there being good and bad wizards and not wanting to offend either one.
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Post by mao on May 10, 2020 4:35:10 GMT -5
I suppose that it has everything to do with the setting. If you want that high-magic feel, vs. magic is rare and dangerous you have decisions to make. I personally prefer spells of convenience and leisure to be fun cantrips, but I don't like to define exactly what they are. A wizard out on the street performing light tricks and earning money that way at the market is fine, but there is something about cantrips that harm others that I want to shy away from. I don't know if it is just my own prejudices and experiences with the game, or if this could change the nature of the world and how people view wizards. I think this is a very good point, how you run magic does a lot to define the nature of your world and how people would view wizards. I think of awe and fear of wizards, but not outright general hatred either. The average peasant should have a sense of there being good and bad wizards and not wanting to offend either one. The way arcane magic is defined has a huge effect on the game world, I always want them to be rare(not for pcs thou.) But yea there is so much defining that you can pick from ie: only women , pnly humn, only Elvan. Lots of room here, but I love cantrips
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ampleframework
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Post by ampleframework on May 10, 2020 9:24:57 GMT -5
It's interesting that if one runs OD&D using the recommended procedures for Stronghold generation and the Outdoor Survival board, there's a good chance that there are several Wizard and Necromancer towers in your game world of either Chaotic or Lawful alignment. In the specific world I generated for Perdition there's quite a few evil Wizards and Evil High Priests, completely by accident. That's just how the dice fell. Imagine how that colors people's perceptions of magic in my world. I considered re-rolling everything because the implications were quite gloomy and dystopian, but I decided I liked it, thematically. Instead of something to avoid or change I took it as a challenge to flesh out interesting backstories for these fiefdoms and how they managed to fall to such nefarious forces. (There's still plenty of good territories under the sway of more benevolent entities, of course. One of my favorites is the canyon territory controlled by a Lawful half-giantess Superhero.)
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Post by mao on May 12, 2020 7:55:33 GMT -5
I declare this thread DERAILED.(lol)
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ampleframework
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Post by ampleframework on May 12, 2020 9:25:39 GMT -5
Let's re-rail it, then.
If you had to run a campaign and choose to give players either ONLY combat cantrips or ONLY non-combat cantrips, which would you choose and why?
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Post by mao on May 12, 2020 10:40:41 GMT -5
Let's re-rail it, then. If you had to run a campaign and choose to give players either ONLY combat cantrips or ONLY non-combat cantrips, which would you choose and why? I'd choose combat, I run 55% wargame
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ampleframework
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Post by ampleframework on May 12, 2020 11:08:54 GMT -5
I suppose I should have classified them as "damage dealing" vs "utility", as a clever player could find many uses in combat for a utility cantrip and many uses out of combat for a damage-dealing one. For instance, when I've played 3.5 and 5e in the past, if my magic-user had firebolt cantrip that thing got a lot of mileage for starting camp fires and the like. Of course, this lessened the need for certain supplies in the game, like flint and tinder.
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Post by mao on May 12, 2020 11:23:30 GMT -5
I suppose I should have classified them as "damage dealing" vs "utility", as a clever player could find many uses in combat for a utility cantrip and many uses out of combat for a damage-dealing one. For instance, when I've played 3.5 and 5e in the past, if my magic-user had firebolt cantrip that thing got a lot of mileage for starting camp fires and the like. Of course, this lessened the need for certain supplies in the game, like flint and tinder. Ok then utility over damage dealing , I really don't care for damage dealing cantrips
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ampleframework
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Post by ampleframework on May 12, 2020 11:57:59 GMT -5
Gotcha. See, that's a good and interesting answer. To me, utility cantrips feel slightly more old school, and most of the ones Gary talked about were more utility. You see how the Firebolt in the example I gave slightly changes the way a player might pack for a campaign, right? That's the thing with cantrips. If you can replace something normally done with gear or a level 1 spell with a cantrip, especially one that can be cast multiple times per day, you remove some of the core utility of that other resource, so for me that's one thing I think carefully about when coming up with a campaign idea.
5e has some insanely over-powered cantrips that would be considered at least level 1 spells in 0e, if not level 2 in some cases, and you can just spam those things again and again. To me, that's one tangible thing I can point towards to illustrate that you don't even need to get into high levels in 5e before it feels different from Old School. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that type of campaign but I enjoy those more "resource management" scenarios where choosing to cast a spell is a choice. Limiting level 0 spells to a handful per day is a good way to utilize them without having them be too useful.
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Post by mao on May 12, 2020 12:43:09 GMT -5
Gotcha. See, that's a good and interesting answer. To me, utility cantrips feel slightly more old school, and most of the ones Gary talked about were more utility. You see how the Firebolt in the example I gave slightly changes the way a player might pack for a campaign, right? That's the thing with cantrips. If you can replace something normally done with gear or a level 1 spell with a cantrip, especially one that can be cast multiple times per day, you remove some of the core utility of that other resource, so for me that's one thing I think carefully about when coming up with a campaign idea. 5e has some insanely over-powered cantrips that would be considered at least level 1 spells in 0e, if not level 2 in some cases, and you can just spam those things again and again. To me, that's one tangible thing I can point towards to illustrate that you don't even need to get into high levels in 5e before it feels different from Old School. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that type of campaign but I enjoy those more "resource management" scenarios where choosing to cast a spell is a choice. Limiting level 0 spells to a handful per day is a good way to utilize them without having them be too useful. Yea, I really like the idea where you can cast the same cantrip 1-4 times or so, depending on power level. My idea of a damaging one is " Augment Magic Missile casting this cantrip adds one missile when you cast Magic Missile it's mine but it's my fav, can only be cast once per memorization
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ampleframework
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Post by ampleframework on May 12, 2020 15:35:19 GMT -5
What do you think about something like a save vs. spells after you use a Cantrip, and if you succeed you can use it again, but if you fail you have to wait until the next day. Under a system like this, the higher level M-U could cast them more often, which sort of feels like an organic power progression.
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Post by mao on May 13, 2020 6:30:11 GMT -5
What do you think about something like a save vs. spells after you use a Cantrip, and if you succeed you can use it again, but if you fail you have to wait until the next day. Under a system like this, the higher level M-U could cast them more often, which sort of feels like an organic power progression. i've seen this idea before(Princeton Convention rules) I really don't care for it, doesn't flow w my fanatic adherence to Vancain magic
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Post by mao on May 13, 2020 7:39:37 GMT -5
I also like the idea of as the mage advances he eventually stops using cantrips when he can cast 3rd or 4th level spells
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ampleframework
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Post by ampleframework on May 13, 2020 12:18:08 GMT -5
See, to me, it almost makes sense to tie the cantrip to some kind of item that has limited uses in that regard, maybe specifically made for apprentice spell casters to augment their lacking abilities, and as their power waxes its power wanes. It could be a bracelet or a ring, something simple, maybe an amulet. Something passed down to them by the academy or mentor that trained them in spellcasting, perhaps.
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Post by arjen on Aug 27, 2021 19:11:26 GMT -5
If you will allow me some thread necromany:
In stead of cantrips in 0e or basic D&D games I have added the idea of MU's being able to do minor magic effects based on the spells they have prepared.
For instance a MU that prepared a fireball can conjure a little flame from their finger, Sleep allows to cause someone to yawn (maybe save allowed), mirror image allows to conjure a little illusion of the MU's person to be conjured in their hand. All party trick material with a chance to be successful in adventure situations when properly planned.
Another thing I was playing with (based on the open magic system of White Hack) was allowing some special items (rod, wands, staves, tools, trinkets) to be imbued with the prepared spell. The trade off would be that the item itself would cost a minimum of 100gp per level of spell imbued, be specifically prepared/crafted for that spell, would cost extra material components (say 10gp/level of the spell) for each time it is imbued. Imbuing the item would still use that spell slot, would only work for the caster and if the caster loses the item or the item is destroyed it will lose that spell for that day. The upside would be that the item would give a bonus while the item is imbued for a day or until the spell is 'cast'.
An example would be a special crafted mallet costing 200gp to be imbued with the spell "knock" (2nd level MU spell), imbuing the mallet would cost 20gp each time (inserting a 20gp gem, treating it with special oils etc.). When imbued the MU can use the mallet to get a +1 on open door checks, however using the mallet this way would call for an extra wandering monster check because of the extra noise; also the mallet can be used to tap a door softly to check if the door is magically held or locked (takes a turn), these effects will last for a day or until the MU expends the imbuement to cast the Knock spell.
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Post by arjen on Aug 27, 2021 20:37:44 GMT -5
After writing this down my brain started to work. I really need to write it all down in a little document as a primer on how to tweak magic in a "rulings not rules" way of running RPG's.
I think the main point is that it should be a discussion/exchange/trade between DM and player, not a separate shopping list with imbue-able items for the MU or a limited list of cantrips associated with the fireball spell. Some of it can be "codified" like cost of imbued item and basic effects when an item is imbued but there should still be a way for the player to "barter" with the DM.
The player could ask if they could light up an unlit firepit from a distance while they have fireball prepared, the DM's answer might be that the MU can spend 1 or more d6 worth of damage from the fireball to do that. the idea is that this is situational where the Mu tells the DM what they want to do and the DM proposes a cost, the cost might be lowering the effect when the spell is cast or even expending the spell.
In the same way, there could be more possible items that can be imbued by the same spell. For example, apart form the mallet there could be a skeleton key that could be imbued with the knock spell giving a +1 (in a d6) check to pick a lock for a maximum times of once per level of the caster (each level should be paid for, so a 5th level MU can imbue the key with 5, or less, charges for 10gp per charge; for only that day), using the last 'charge' might expend the spell itself. Figure it our with your DM or players.
The item or a book with the instructions to craft them could be treasure or equipment themselves. Again, not necessarily stuff an MU can shop for, but item/book/instructions that can be won, found, offered as reward or the result of magical research. And all options can double for money sinks for treasure found or, when using the spend gp for xp model, reasonable ways to spend gp for xp.
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