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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Jan 31, 2022 21:58:59 GMT -5
I filled it out and kept to my classic roots. I also pointed out that current price points and the inclusion of Real Life(TM) issues in the products are a turn off. And I made sure to mention that S&W was my game of choice. I would love to talk to someone privately, like run into them in a national park, who works at WOTC, not to much to tell tham what I think of anything as to learn how they think about this stuff. I can barely imagine! The mind boggles...
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Post by hengest on Jan 31, 2022 22:42:15 GMT -5
I would love to talk to someone privately, like run into them in a national park, who works at WOTC, not to much to tell tham what I think of anything as to learn how they think about this stuff. I can barely imagine! The mind boggles... Maybe I'm over-imagining it. I imagine I would really learn something deep about how other people think, and it would probably be like "Yeah, we have to manage the property, I do some spreadsheets about projections."
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Post by Admin Pete on Jan 31, 2022 23:56:26 GMT -5
I would love to talk to someone privately, like run into them in a national park, who works at WOTC, not to much to tell tham what I think of anything as to learn how they think about this stuff. I can barely imagine! The mind boggles... Boggle is another game.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Feb 1, 2022 8:58:46 GMT -5
Maybe I'm over-imagining it. I imagine I would really learn something deep about how other people think, and it would probably be like "Yeah, we have to manage the property, I do some spreadsheets about projections." That's a possibility...
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Feb 1, 2022 8:59:43 GMT -5
Boggle is another game. Ahhh but it IS old school!
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Post by simrion on Feb 1, 2022 19:24:09 GMT -5
I would love to talk to someone privately, like run into them in a national park, who works at WOTC, not to much to tell tham what I think of anything as to learn how they think about this stuff. I can barely imagine! The mind boggles... My guess is they'd say they already answered the desires of "old school" players by creating 5th. After all it is supposed to be the version of D&D that should appeal to all fans of D&D. Just wait until they decide to intro 6th ed...
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Feb 1, 2022 19:27:41 GMT -5
My guess is they'd say they already answered the desires of "old school" players by creating 5th. After all it is supposed to be the version of D&D that should appeal to all fans of D&D. Just wait until they decide to intro 6th ed... If any of the newer D&D stuff is any indication the game is going for a different target audience.
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Post by simrion on Feb 2, 2022 19:13:06 GMT -5
My guess is they'd say they already answered the desires of "old school" players by creating 5th. After all it is supposed to be the version of D&D that should appeal to all fans of D&D. Just wait until they decide to intro 6th ed... If any of the newer D&D stuff is any indication the game is going for a different target audience. Without a doubt. I play with many younger gamers in their 20's and 30's. Their experience is different with things like Critical Roll, ect. Essentially gaming pod casts and videos? Almost like they have to be instructed as to how the game is supposed to be played as opposed to just sitting down and playing. That is how I learned. We didn't play correctly by the rules at first but we had fun. And as we connected with more experienced gamers face-to-face we learned the rules and had even more fun.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Feb 2, 2022 21:01:28 GMT -5
If any of the newer D&D stuff is any indication the game is going for a different target audience. Without a doubt. I play with many younger gamers in their 20's and 30's. Their experience is different with things like Critical Roll, ect. Essentially gaming pod casts and videos? Almost like they have to be instructed as to how the game is supposed to be played as opposed to just sitting down and playing. That is how I learned. We didn't play correctly by the rules at first but we had fun. And as we connected with more experienced gamers face-to-face we learned the rules and had even more fun. Exactly! It was always cool to figure out something that we were actually doing wrong and then finding out the correct way to do it by the book.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 2, 2022 22:22:36 GMT -5
If any of the newer D&D stuff is any indication the game is going for a different target audience. Without a doubt. I play with many younger gamers in their 20's and 30's. Their experience is different with things like Critical Roll, ect. Essentially gaming pod casts and videos? Almost like they have to be instructed as to how the game is supposed to be played as opposed to just sitting down and playing. That is how I learned. We didn't play correctly by the rules at first but we had fun. And as we connected with more experienced gamers face-to-face we learned the rules and had even more fun. If you had fun you were playing correctly!
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 2, 2022 22:30:36 GMT -5
My guess is they'd say they already answered the desires of "old school" players by creating 5th. After all it is supposed to be the version of D&D that should appeal to all fans of D&D. Just wait until they decide to intro 6th ed... I have played 5E and the game has resumed, as the DM has gotten over his burnout, so we have started backup. He tones the game down quite a bit since he started with B/X and 1st Ed AD&D, but still it is slow moving. I would toss a lot of the rules to speed things up. The other thing is the DM and the other four players (IMO) waste way too much of our three hour games look up rules and trying to decide if they are playing/using the rule right, instead of just making a ruling, going with it and then (if is something they are bothered about) doing the research and discussion between games. For me, the game moves with glacial slowness and it does not need too. If it were not friends, I would not be playing it. So IMO WotC did not remotely answer the desires of "old school" players by creating 5th Ed.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Feb 3, 2022 13:54:46 GMT -5
Without a doubt. I play with many younger gamers in their 20's and 30's. Their experience is different with things like Critical Roll, ect. Essentially gaming pod casts and videos? Almost like they have to be instructed as to how the game is supposed to be played as opposed to just sitting down and playing. That is how I learned. We didn't play correctly by the rules at first but we had fun. And as we connected with more experienced gamers face-to-face we learned the rules and had even more fun. If you had fun you were playing correctly! CORRECT!
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Feb 3, 2022 13:58:22 GMT -5
My guess is they'd say they already answered the desires of "old school" players by creating 5th. After all it is supposed to be the version of D&D that should appeal to all fans of D&D. Just wait until they decide to intro 6th ed... I have played 5E and the game has resumed, as the DM has gotten over his burnout, so we have started backup. He tones the game down quite a bit since he started with B/X and 1st Ed AD&D, but still it is slow moving. I would toss a lot of the rules to speed things up. The other thing is the DM and the other four players (IMO) waste way too much of our three hour games look up rules and trying to decide if they are playing/using the rule right, instead of just making a ruling, going with it and then (if is something they are bothered about) doing the research and discussion between games. For me, the game moves with glacial slowness and it does not need too. If it were not friends, I would not be playing it. So IMO WotC did not remotely answer the desires of "old school" players by creating 5th Ed. I agree. IMO Wotc should have stripped it down to the bare essentials (like the old school) and made ALL of the padding into optional rules. I know that claims were made to it being designed in that regard BUT the expectations from the core books seem to be including most of the extra padding, so you get the issues you pointed out.
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Post by simrion on Feb 3, 2022 15:47:28 GMT -5
Sadly I think today's society has not only reinforced the requirement/desire for "trust" rather it's misinterpreted the whole idea of "trust." In "old school" gaming you trusted the DM/GM to not screw you/be an impartial judge. These days players rely on a rule set that implies the DM won't "screw you/your character..."
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Post by arjen on Feb 3, 2022 18:00:25 GMT -5
My guess is they'd say they already answered the desires of "old school" players by creating 5th. After all it is supposed to be the version of D&D that should appeal to all fans of D&D. Just wait until they decide to intro 6th ed... I have played 5E and the game has resumed, as the DM has gotten over his burnout, so we have started backup. He tones the game down quite a bit since he started with B/X and 1st Ed AD&D, but still it is slow moving. I would toss a lot of the rules to speed things up. The other thing is the DM and the other four players (IMO) waste way too much of our three hour games look up rules and trying to decide if they are playing/using the rule right, instead of just making a ruling, going with it and then (if is something they are bothered about) doing the research and discussion between games. For me, the game moves with glacial slowness and it does not need too. If it were not friends, I would not be playing it. So IMO WotC did not remotely answer the desires of "old school" players by creating 5th Ed. The last games I ran a few months ago were 5E pick-up games. I would run them with "old school" sensibilities, tell the players that the world was "open" and not everything they would find or encounter would be for them to fight or was "level appropriate". I would handwave a lot of skill checks and rule based on whether they were proficient or not and/or had a good appropriate stat. My table tended to eb a bit more lethal but most players seemed to like the style. The thing with 5E compared to od&d is the way that characters are made. Characters are more "build" now, there is an abundance of choices and ways a player can plan the upcoming levels. The players already invested in the PC's with choices and "work" before the character sheet is presented at the table. In that way it is harder to just do rulings and play loose because it can run up against the players "investment" in figuring out how to build a character to be able to do something cool. And I understand that and I see how they have fun doing what their doing and being excited introducing their characters and discussing builds and ability combo's. Personally, it's not my style, I get analysis paralysis making 5e (or 3e,4e) D&D characters and rather roll a character and interpret a cool way to interpret a PC. With that in mind, I have met people that started with basic D&D/AD&D like me and love the codified way of 5e (or general 3E +) character design with loads of choices, but I also met newer players that struggled with all the choice and got excited by the idea of just rolling and figuring out a PC by playing it. 5E is not oD&D but for old-school style gaming it is easier to handle and hack than 3E and 4E, with the players still being able to to use their player resource books mostly as written. Another thing I think that is different between now and the mid 70s (or even the late 80s, when I started); there is such an overabundance of fantasy (scy fy, fantastical etc) shows, (computer)games, movies, books, series with main and supporting characters with special skills, magic, moves and specialness that define those characters. Even in post-D&D/star wars, late 80s, main fantasy characters were the classic Tolkien, Conan, Jedi, A-team tropes and the cartoon He-Man like characters with a gimmick and a bad-ass weapon that they would just ignore in a fight in favor of using their fists to punch the enemy in the face. There were less graphic stories in the "shared narrative consciousness" around characters with specific "moves", "skills" and "abilities/magic" to drive that necessity in character design. Well, except in the superhero genre of course. and that evolved exactly that way in the "supers" RPG's from the start of the late 70s supers RPGs. Even if those games still involved people with special abilities just punching each other. And.. to that point, Superheroes have been "mainstream" for just a decade or 2. Also, don't forget that gaming in general has changed a lot during these 50 years. In 70s games there was a sheer divide between games whose rules where written on the inside of the game box and games with a booklet of rules with very terse, dense and formulaic arcane rules. Almost everyone that plays games now, even if only cell phone games, is used to the idea of hitpoints/health, levels, getting points to get extra skills etc.
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Post by simrion on Feb 3, 2022 18:26:31 GMT -5
I have played 5E and the game has resumed, as the DM has gotten over his burnout, so we have started backup. He tones the game down quite a bit since he started with B/X and 1st Ed AD&D, but still it is slow moving. I would toss a lot of the rules to speed things up. The other thing is the DM and the other four players (IMO) waste way too much of our three hour games look up rules and trying to decide if they are playing/using the rule right, instead of just making a ruling, going with it and then (if is something they are bothered about) doing the research and discussion between games. For me, the game moves with glacial slowness and it does not need too. If it were not friends, I would not be playing it. So IMO WotC did not remotely answer the desires of "old school" players by creating 5th Ed. Also, don't forget that gaming in general has changed a lot during these 50 years. In 70s games there was a sheer divide between games whose rules where written on the inside of the game box and games with a booklet of rules with very terse, dense and formulaic arcane rules. Almost everyone that plays games now, even if only cell phone games, is used to the idea of hitpoints/health, levels, getting points to get extra skills etc. Ultimately this is the conundrum for me. As a good friend exclaims "My old rule set isn't broken or obsolete, it still works fine." Regrettably newer players and, even some older players, have newer expectations no doubt fostered by the options/prevalence of computer games. Sadly that is NOT the style of game I care to run/play, yet finding players and/or a GM for my style is getting to be a rarity. More and more I find myself unceremoniously pushed into the camp of reading older RPGs for the joy of nostalgia and foregoing actual play...
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Post by hengest on Feb 3, 2022 21:19:19 GMT -5
arjen Exalt to you for that thorough post. I tried to make a 4E (I think?) character to play with some guys who were kind enough to invite me. I tried to do it...you know, normally, without really worry about any builds. But it seemed to me that the whole setup almost required that you think in that way, which I was unable to do. Similarly during play. I tried to do my "job" normally, but I could see that I was not doing it right. It was not enough to roll to hit and for damage. I was supposed to be on top of various things--whether the opponent is flat-footed, etc--to make the damage add up to 67 points or something like that. The guys at the table were great, welcoming, tried to help me. But it wasn't for me... Very good observations about the "stock" hero / character types in popular consciousness a few decades ago.
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Post by hengest on Feb 3, 2022 21:21:37 GMT -5
Ultimately this is the conundrum for me. As a good friend exclaims "My old rule set isn't broken or obsolete, it still works fine." Regrettably newer players and, even some older players, have newer expectations no doubt fostered by the options/prevalence of computer games. Sadly that is NOT the style of game I care to run/play, yet finding players and/or a GM for my style is getting to be a rarity. More and more I find myself unceremoniously pushed into the camp of reading older RPGs for the joy of nostalgia and foregoing actual play... If I wanted to play a computer game, I would play a computer game. But I think the last time I did a PC game was in the 20th century, and the last time I played a game at a computer, it was an emulator I used to play Super Mario World (1990). That was maybe in 2005.
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Post by simrion on Feb 4, 2022 7:29:57 GMT -5
Ultimately this is the conundrum for me. As a good friend exclaims "My old rule set isn't broken or obsolete, it still works fine." Regrettably newer players and, even some older players, have newer expectations no doubt fostered by the options/prevalence of computer games. Sadly that is NOT the style of game I care to run/play, yet finding players and/or a GM for my style is getting to be a rarity. More and more I find myself unceremoniously pushed into the camp of reading older RPGs for the joy of nostalgia and foregoing actual play... If I wanted to play a computer game, I would play a computer game. But I think the last time I did a PC game was in the 20th century, and the last time I played a game at a computer, it was an emulator I used to play Super Mario World (1990). That was maybe in 2005. I played the heck out of some games like Diablo II and Emperor of the Fading Suns BITD. At the age of 54 when I play a game I can stick with it for about 20 minutes then I need to get up and do something else. No patience to sit for hours anymore. Probably sensing my mortality or something and then, gazing upon my extensive library, I realize I have far too many books I have yet to read!
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Feb 4, 2022 10:40:58 GMT -5
If I wanted to play a computer game, I would play a computer game. But I think the last time I did a PC game was in the 20th century, and the last time I played a game at a computer, it was an emulator I used to play Super Mario World (1990). That was maybe in 2005. I played the heck out of some games like Diablo II and Emperor of the Fading Suns BITD. At the age of 54 when I play a game I can stick with it for about 20 minutes then I need to get up and do something else. No patience to sit for hours anymore. Probably sensing my mortality or something and then, gazing upon my extensive library, I realize I have far too many books I have yet to read! I feel your pain! I can still rock on the Diablo series and some Dragon Age - of the more modern games - but I usually get more enjoyment at hearing my son call to me to come see what new part of a game he was just able to get to for the first time. Of course, the TBR pile is always waiting. I used to try to not DNF a book but these days I give it a chance and if it isn't for me, I'm going with something else. No time to commit to a book I'm not really interested in.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Feb 4, 2022 12:19:31 GMT -5
The thing that they don't know and don't believe is that you can do really cool things in OD&D, without all of that work before the game starts and without interfering with the refs right to run the game in a really open ended manner. It is fiction that 3E or 5E gives players more choices, it gives you limits and restrictions under the guise of "choices". You have more choices in OD&D. Now granted you don't get to be "Superman" at first level, nor do you have everything "supersized" at first level. But you can grow into quite powerful characters as you level up and accumulate stuff. If I were running 5E, I would have to take a lot of magic out of the game since the character builds start you with the equivalent of a half dozen magic items from 1st level. I would rather give out unique magic items that do things. Also the 8 hours rest and back to full hit points thing along with the massive amount of magic healing available is IMO a bad thing and to compensate I would have to roll for random encounters every hour in order to put the fear of death back in the game and I absolutely would not follow the paradigm of making every encounter a must fight and 99.9% guaranteed win. The whole fight is the only option, with no talking and no negotiations and no running away, gets old quick to me.
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Post by simrion on Feb 4, 2022 17:56:13 GMT -5
I used to try to not DNF a book but these days I give it a chance and if it isn't for me, I'm going with something else. No time to commit to a book I'm not really interested in. That is awesome, I've done that with more than a few substandard movies LOL
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Feb 4, 2022 18:16:29 GMT -5
That is awesome, I've done that with more than a few substandard movies LOL I hear you! Crap is crap and if you don't like then don't waste your time. I had a buddy that was a BIG TIME Star Trek fan, and his logic was "It's a new Star Trek show. I have to watch it if I want more.". I understand what he was saying but that's not good logic. If you support any level of quality or storytelling, then you are going to get any level. Hold out for the good stuff.
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Post by Admin Pete on Feb 6, 2022 23:12:15 GMT -5
Boggle is another game. Ahhh but it IS old school! True, a great old school game.
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Post by Admin Pete on Feb 6, 2022 23:15:48 GMT -5
Sadly I think today's society has not only reinforced the requirement/desire for "trust" rather it's misinterpreted the whole idea of "trust." In "old school" gaming you trusted the DM/GM to not screw you/be an impartial judge. These days players rely on a rule set that implies the DM won't "screw you/your character..." Trust is such an easy thing too, any DM that cannot be trusted will not have any players. The old school DMs rule/authority in game was (is) near absolute simply because they understand that principle, and the players know they understand that principle.
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Post by Vladimir, The Dark Prince on Feb 20, 2022 21:28:04 GMT -5
That is awesome, I've done that with more than a few substandard movies LOL I hear you! Crap is crap and if you don't like then don't waste your time. I had a buddy that was a BIG TIME Star Trek fan, and his logic was "It's a new Star Trek show. I have to watch it if I want more.". I understand what he was saying but that's not good logic. If you support any level of quality or storytelling, then you are going to get any level. Hold out for the good stuff. I am pretty much done with Star Trek and Star Wars at this point.
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Post by The Semi-Retired Gamer on Feb 21, 2022 3:15:34 GMT -5
I hear you! Crap is crap and if you don't like then don't waste your time. I had a buddy that was a BIG TIME Star Trek fan, and his logic was "It's a new Star Trek show. I have to watch it if I want more.". I understand what he was saying but that's not good logic. If you support any level of quality or storytelling, then you are going to get any level. Hold out for the good stuff. I am pretty much done with Star Trek and Star Wars at this point. YES!
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Post by hengest on Feb 21, 2022 12:14:51 GMT -5
I hear you! Crap is crap and if you don't like then don't waste your time. I had a buddy that was a BIG TIME Star Trek fan, and his logic was "It's a new Star Trek show. I have to watch it if I want more.". I understand what he was saying but that's not good logic. If you support any level of quality or storytelling, then you are going to get any level. Hold out for the good stuff. I am pretty much done with Star Trek and Star Wars at this point. I saw The Phantom Menace with my parents for something to do after we buried a pet. Maybe I wasn't in the best condition, but I almost completely failed to follow the movie. Attack of the Clones and Revenge I saw because my girlfriend's sister wanted to see them. I really didn't know what to make of them. Have seen none of the Star Wars stuff since, and from what I read, I have no interest in doing so. I am a sympathizer with TOS and TNG. Now, some of TNG is not great, but there is a unique chemistry among the cast and it does not give the feel of having been written by soulless committee. Plus, and this is especially true in TNG, I think, they have have characters who are imperfect without turning everyone into an anti-hero. I really appreciate this. The best of it and even middling episodes are explorations of an idea. Sometimes there's a kind of silly moral, but not usually. It's an exploration that you get to observe. That's already better than most television right there. Once these franchises start writing to a formula, I can't help but lose interest. Literally nothing makes up for that.
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Post by Vladimir, The Dark Prince on Feb 21, 2022 13:15:09 GMT -5
I am pretty much done with Star Trek and Star Wars at this point. I saw The Phantom Menace with my parents for something to do after we buried a pet. Maybe I wasn't in the best condition, but I almost completely failed to follow the movie. Attack of the Clones and Revenge I saw because my girlfriend's sister wanted to see them. I really didn't know what to make of them. Have seen none of the Star Wars stuff since, and from what I read, I have no interest in doing so. I am a sympathizer with TOS and TNG. Now, some of TNG is not great, but there is a unique chemistry among the cast and it does not give the feel of having been written by soulless committee. Plus, and this is especially true in TNG, I think, they have have characters who are imperfect without turning everyone into an anti-hero. I really appreciate this. The best of it and even middling episodes are explorations of an idea. Sometimes there's a kind of silly moral, but not usually. It's an exploration that you get to observe. That's already better than most television right there. Once these franchises start writing to a formula, I can't help but lose interest. Literally nothing makes up for that. I like both TOS and TNG. I did not like the way they wrote Wil Wheaton's character. I wish sometime they would write a supersmart character that is also athletic and street smart and not obnoxious.
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