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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Nov 27, 2019 0:11:21 GMT -5
I don't think I would change anything if I were doing it in that time and place, as it all made sense then and there, but most of the references would be lost today. Unless of course you know about Herbie Popnecker and Vikings who sing about spam, which were well-known tropes to my friends in those days. What I use today from those times is make sure that I slip little jokes into the educational games that I design. Not everyone gets it, especially when they don't expect there to be anything but a lesson or a challenge, but those who know me long enough learn to look for the hidden meaning. If they do get it, I can share a laugh with them; if they don't, I quietly have a laugh at them. I do the same thing with my writing, with every book I have written since 1985 having Easter eggs in them. I am especially fond of writing footnotes that seem serious but are instead elaborate jokes. Easter eggs in your books, how fun is that! Any examples you can share with us? Footnotes that are elaborate jokes, they should get you to write textbooks to use in schools, a good teacher could do a lot with that. Any of those you can share with us?
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Post by cvangrasstek on Nov 27, 2019 15:43:05 GMT -5
I'll share those just as soon as you get a poet to explain the hidden meaning of a poem and a magician to show the secret behind a trick. What's the fun of slipping in an Easter egg when the whole point of the exercise is to see if anyone can decipher it? Or even knows to look for it?
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Nov 28, 2019 19:32:11 GMT -5
I'll share those just as soon as you get a poet to explain the hidden meaning of a poem and a magician to show the secret behind a trick. What's the fun of slipping in an Easter egg when the whole point of the exercise is to see if anyone can decipher it? Or even knows to look for it? Gotcha!
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Dec 1, 2019 15:19:40 GMT -5
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Dec 10, 2019 5:29:22 GMT -5
Do you have other stories you can tell from bitd?
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Post by cvangrasstek on Dec 10, 2019 17:19:55 GMT -5
Mostly just the sort of stories that made Tucker Max a reasonably successful author some years back. Which is to say that in none of them does everyone come out looking good, and in the others we all look bad. And changing social mores ensure that some tales that would win plaudits a generation ago would fare quite poorly in today's finger-wagging cancel culture. The defamation laws being what they are, I ought to keep those to myself.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Dec 10, 2019 19:37:48 GMT -5
Mostly just the sort of stories that made Tucker Max a reasonably successful author some years back. Which is to say that in none of them does everyone come out looking good, and in the others we all look bad. And changing social mores ensure that some tales that would win plaudits a generation ago would fare quite poorly in today's finger-wagging cancel culture. The defamation laws being what they are, I ought to keep those to myself. I had to look up Tucker Max, never heard of him, and I had to look up cancel culture(and wish I had not). Although I am 63, I still remember being a teen. Sorry that you do not feel OK about sharing more stories with us.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Dec 10, 2019 19:38:56 GMT -5
So have you looked around the forum at all? If so, did you see anything that peeked your interest? Asking for a friend.
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Post by cvangrasstek on Dec 14, 2019 8:27:42 GMT -5
I did look around, but it is a little difficult for me to relate to things that haven't been a part of my life for more than forty years. It's kind of like an experience I had a few years back when I finished writing a book on a tight deadline, and had promised myself throughout the writing that when I was done I would treat myself by driving to the House of Prime Rib. (Important detail: Said restaurant is in San Francisco, and I live in Washington, DC.) So that's just what I did, and enjoyed both the journey and the destination, but when I mentioned this to the waiter he called over a manager who insisted on letting me enter the restaurant's sports memorabilia vault. Which I politely and appreciatively did, but didn't want to offend them by admitting that I have never even seen either a football or basketball game; I don't even know the rules of those games. I did follow baseball a little for some years, and was able to recognize the name on one signed ball, but that was about it. Which is all by way of saying that as an historian I like anything that preserves our knowledge of the past, but I can't say as I feel much of a personal connection to this specific archive.
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Post by ripx187 on Dec 15, 2019 1:16:25 GMT -5
I have many hobbies, but table-top role-playing games is by far the one that I enjoy the most. Unlike other hobbies, which can quickly turn into a financial burden, D&D is very crafty and do it yourself. I've used it as a medium for expressing myself for decades. In this day and age where many of us are just so disassociated from reality by so much digital media and programming, I find it amazing that there has been a tremendous renaissance of folks who gather in the same room with good old fashioned notebook paper, archaic pencils, and actually talk to each other. I think that unplugging from the network is exactly why people do this. What once was considered escapism, or a means to become closer to geek fandom by living in Middle Earth (at least in our imaginations), has become something else. A thread that keeps us tethered to reality. It is a strange happening if you think about it.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Dec 16, 2019 2:25:37 GMT -5
I did look around, but it is a little difficult for me to relate to things that haven't been a part of my life for more than forty years. It's kind of like an experience I had a few years back when I finished writing a book on a tight deadline, and had promised myself throughout the writing that when I was done I would treat myself by driving to the House of Prime Rib. (Important detail: Said restaurant is in San Francisco, and I live in Washington, DC.) So that's just what I did, and enjoyed both the journey and the destination, but when I mentioned this to the waiter he called over a manager who insisted on letting me enter the restaurant's sports memorabilia vault. Which I politely and appreciatively did, but didn't want to offend them by admitting that I have never even seen either a football or basketball game; I don't even know the rules of those games. I did follow baseball a little for some years, and was able to recognize the name on one signed ball, but that was about it. Which is all by way of saying that as an historian I like anything that preserves our knowledge of the past, but I can't say as I feel much of a personal connection to this specific archive. Sounds like a good advertising pitch to me. He should have made the whole thing on the house. But looking at the vault is pretty cool too! But yeah, I get where you are coming from.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Dec 16, 2019 2:32:29 GMT -5
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Dec 16, 2019 2:35:28 GMT -5
I have many hobbies, but table-top role-playing games is by far the one that I enjoy the most. Unlike other hobbies, which can quickly turn into a financial burden, D&D is very crafty and do it yourself. I've used it as a medium for expressing myself for decades. In this day and age where many of us are just so disassociated from reality by so much digital media and programming, I find it amazing that there has been a tremendous renaissance of folks who gather in the same room with good old fashioned notebook paper, archaic pencils, and actually talk to each other. I think that unplugging from the network is exactly why people do this. What once was considered escapism, or a means to become closer to geek fandom by living in Middle Earth (at least in our imaginations), has become something else. A thread that keeps us tethered to reality. It is a strange happening if you think about it. You should expand this into a blog post. Ironic is what it is.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Dec 16, 2019 2:37:36 GMT -5
cvangrasstek, have you seen or heard about the Secrets of Blackmoor Film with all the interviews of the guys who were there playing and in some cases running the games. Not just Blackmoor or D&D but a lot of games including the Braunsteins?
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Post by cvangrasstek on Dec 16, 2019 7:58:52 GMT -5
Thanks for asking, as I was not aware of the film. I just now saw a trailer to this online and immediately recognized not the people but the style of speech, which was the voice in which I then wrote. I think these are people from whom I had one or possibly two degrees of separation. As in, I think that several of the people with whom I sometimes or often played games or otherwise socialized -- especially Michael Mornard, Blue Petal, Bruce Hanesolo, Al Kuhfeld, Dick Tatge, and MAR Barker -- must have done so in other configurations with these people, or else played with people who played with them. I am pretty sure I heard Blue mention more than one of them, and certain that Michael did. But I did not know them (or at least did not recognize them in the trailer -- anyone have a full list of interviewees?). Think of a series of cliques or clubs all laid out in an intricate Venn diagram, with perhaps a few dotted lines to connect people who are otherwise separated by the highly fragmented layout of the circles, and you get a sense of the different ways that people connected then (and probably even more haphazardly in this cyber age than in the days when friendships were bounded by bus schedules). I was in a spot where about three of these circles overlapped, but there were a great many more of which I was aware and with which I shared common friends. I don't think I could offer any reliable or revealing memories of even the adjacent circles. But I have spottily vivid recollections of at least some of what I did in my own.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Dec 16, 2019 8:31:01 GMT -5
Thanks for asking, as I was not aware of the film. I just now saw a trailer to this online and immediately recognized not the people but the style of speech, which was the voice in which I then wrote. I think these are people from whom I had one or possibly two degrees of separation. As in, I think that several of the people with whom I sometimes or often played games or otherwise socialized -- especially Michael Mornard, Blue Petal, Bruce Hanesolo, Al Kuhfeld, Dick Tatge, and MAR Barker -- must have done so in other configurations with these people, or else played with people who played with them. I am pretty sure I heard Blue mention more than one of them, and certain that Michael did. But I did not know them (or at least did not recognize them in the trailer -- anyone have a full list of interviewees?). Think of a series of cliques or clubs all laid out in an intricate Venn diagram, with perhaps a few dotted lines to connect people who are otherwise separated by the highly fragmented layout of the circles, and you get a sense of the different ways that people connected then (and probably even more haphazardly in this cyber age than in the days when friendships were bounded by bus schedules). I was in a spot where about three of these circles overlapped, but there were a great many more of which I was aware and with which I shared common friends. I don't think I could offer any reliable or revealing memories of even the adjacent circles. But I have spottily vivid recollections of at least some of what I did in my own. Dave Arneson and MAR Barker knew and gamed with each other. Michael Monard played in Blackmoor, in Tékumel and in Greyhawk one of the very few who did that. The Secrets of Blackmoor folks from their interviews would have a lot of the information about the overlaps. I think there is going to be a transcript of the film IIRC. Also there is Greg Svenson's Tonisborg Dungeon which they are publishing. If you could, you might write down what you do remember about the names of the people you knew and how (and where) you interacted and provide it to them. I am sure they would find that useful and anything else you remember, Petersen would want too. They would both probably say that you have more useful information than you think you do. Even with the long time gap. You represent another piece of the puzzle and any piece is helpful to an historian. Something which you do care about. I would not sell myself short, but let them decide how useful what you remember is.
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Post by cvangrasstek on Dec 16, 2019 9:47:42 GMT -5
Not intending to shirk, but I think in these various posts (and in material I sent to Jon a few years ago) I have said nearly everything I can recall that is neither trivial nor defamatory. The few additional names I can recall are nicknames (e.g., Lightning and Peach) rather than the kind one finds on birth certificates and arrest warrants, and usually of people whom I knew less than the rest. But if anyone has specific questions I can do my best to answer them, provided that people aren't too put out when the reply is some variation on "I wasn't a part of that group" or "That happened before/after I was around" or "I don't really remember." My bet is that Michael Mornard recalls about fifty times as much useful information as I do (and that estimate is conservative). By comparison with him and those closer to him, my association with these events was very brief and peripheral, with an impact that probably looks larger in the documentary record (insofar as those 1974 rules of mine got archived and rediscovered) than it was in reality. I would not be surprised if the actual number of people who have read those rules since Jon posted them were a large multiple of the number who read and used them back in the day, and it would be a disservice to the historical record if this somewhat anomalous development were given greater weight than it deserves.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Dec 16, 2019 11:34:12 GMT -5
Not intending to shirk, but I think in these various posts (and in material I sent to Jon a few years ago) I have said nearly everything I can recall that is neither trivial nor defamatory. The few additional names I can recall are nicknames (e.g., Lightning and Peach) rather than the kind one finds on birth certificates and arrest warrants, and usually of people whom I knew less than the rest. But if anyone has specific questions I can do my best to answer them, provided that people aren't too put out when the reply is some variation on "I wasn't a part of that group" or "That happened before/after I was around" or "I don't really remember." My bet is that Michael Mornard recalls about fifty times as much useful information as I do (and that estimate is conservative). By comparison with him and those closer to him, my association with these events was very brief and peripheral, with an impact that probably looks larger in the documentary record (insofar as those 1974 rules of mine got archived and rediscovered) than it was in reality. I would not be surprised if the actual number of people who have read those rules since Jon posted them were a large multiple of the number who read and used them back in the day, and it would be a disservice to the historical record if this somewhat anomalous development were given greater weight than it deserves. I really enjoy the way you write and your turns of phrase. I am going to have to get at least one of your books and check it out. Do you have one you would recommend to me as the first one to look at? On the subject of nicknames do you remember any stories of how someone got any of those nicknames, some that are not too defamatory? I have been remembering things about college that I have not thought of in years, that was a wonderful time. But as you have said, too many stories I should not tell!
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Post by cvangrasstek on Dec 16, 2019 19:31:03 GMT -5
I have heard whispers suggesting that one can live a fulfilling life without reading "Trade and American Leadership," but I think that's just an unsubstantiated rumor. Lightning was thus named for being slow-witted and damned proud of it. The recollection I have of him that is least likely to land me in court is that he ate Meow Mix out of the bag. I blush when I consider how Peach got her name, as my best guess comes not from idle speculation but rather the type of memory that drives one to therapeutic drink.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Dec 16, 2019 21:08:43 GMT -5
I have heard whispers suggesting that one can live a fulfilling life without reading "Trade and American Leadership," but I think that's just an unsubstantiated rumor. Lightning was thus named for being slow-witted and damned proud of it. The recollection I have of him that is least likely to land me in court is that he ate Meow Mix out of the bag. I blush when I consider how Peach got her name, as my best guess comes not from idle speculation but rather the type of memory that drives one to therapeutic drink. Trade and American Leadership: The Paradoxes of Power and Wealth from Alexander Hamilton to Donald TrumpOriginally published: January 3, 2019 I just put in a suggestion for my library to purchase this, I will have to see when I can work it out to get a copy. I may get it for a cousin of mine who reads voraciously of all manner of literature, he only went to high school and never left the farm, but he and his father before him are extremely well read. My uncle gave me a copy of Commentaries on the Gallic War (Commentāriī dē Bellō Gallicō) by Julius Caesar and Aulus Hirtius for my 21st birthday. I see Amazon has a Biography reference for you along with a picture too. Dr. VanGrasstek cleans up well. Did anyone else try the Meow Mix? Did he really seem to like it? Therapeutic drink, that must be quite a memory.
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Post by cvangrasstek on Dec 16, 2019 22:04:52 GMT -5
I'm not sure if Lightning was eating the Meow Mix on a dare or a bet or as a desperate bid for attention, but it was memorable. And he claimed to like it. He also memorably said of a noted gamer that he was "the sort of man who makes me wish I were a woman," which c.1975 was a rather more avant garde declaration than it would be today. (Actually I doubt that he used the subjunctive tense properly, but even in memories I can't help but edit for grammar. Like mentally revising James Brown to sing his signature song, "I Feel Well.") This is, however, pretty much what I meant about most of my non-defamatory memories from those days degenerating into trivia. I don't think it would add much to the historical record to provide evidence to support the contention that another one of these guys was a stranger to the social graces, or that yet another had yet to plumb the mysteries of basic personal hygiene. Although it does help explain why, in my 15th year, I began to conclude that spending time with young women -- or one of them, anyway -- was preferable to rolling dice. And doing both was not then an option. If I recall properly, Jon Peterson did observe that the Minneapolis gaming community was pretty much a men-only affair. Sad but true.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Dec 16, 2019 22:46:35 GMT -5
I'm not sure if Lightning was eating the Meow Mix on a dare or a bet or as a desperate bid for attention, but it was memorable. And he claimed to like it. He also memorably said of a noted gamer that he was "the sort of man who makes me wish I were a woman," which c.1975 was a rather more avant garde declaration than it would be today. (Actually I doubt that he used the subjunctive tense properly, but even in memories I can't help but edit for grammar. Like mentally revising James Brown to sing his signature song, "I Feel Well.") This is, however, pretty much what I meant about most of my non-defamatory memories from those days degenerating into trivia. I don't think it would add much to the historical record to provide evidence to support the contention that another one of these guys was a stranger to the social graces, or that yet another had yet to plumb the mysteries of basic personal hygiene. Although it does help explain why, in my 15th year, I began to conclude that spending time with young women -- or one of them, anyway -- was preferable to rolling dice. And doing both was not then an option. If I recall properly, Jon Peterson did observe that the Minneapolis gaming community was pretty much a men-only affair. Sad but true. Maybe he did like it, some of the stuff I feed my dog smells pretty good. Given the age I would guess it was dare. I seem to remember a few dares from my day. Among my friends that "rather more avant garde declaration" would have been hard to live down in very rural semi-backwoods area. The same community is quite tolerant these days. My grammar is not that great, but I do work on it. My spelling is pretty good, I do look it up if I am not sure - though typos can be hard to catch. But some things are just jarring. One for me is the wide spread spelling of definitely as defiantly. If I had a dollar for every time I have seen that among rpg players. That is not even an easy typo to make. Trivia can be so much fun. I have worked in a suit and tie office where there we hygiene challenged men and even women. I remember seeing a guy spraying under guy who was on the phone with air freshener from head to toe(and the sprayed man thought it was funny). Another the secretary across the aisle from him would spray his area with Lysol every time he left his cubicle. I was lucky, I got to roll dice and hang out with young women(very attractive young women) at the same time. Being in college when D&D came out was a great place to be. I was part of a large group that was steeped in Fantasy, Science Fiction, Folk Tales, Fairy Tales and much more. There were four English majors in our group who were writing fantasy themed poetry and short stories at the time. One started on a novel about King Arthur told from the prospective of Nimue. AFAIK she never did publish it though. I thought it was pretty good, although it was way ahead of its time for the risque content for a fantasy book.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Dec 23, 2019 12:21:21 GMT -5
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Post by cvangrasstek on Dec 23, 2019 20:34:03 GMT -5
Yes, I had seen that, as well as one or two others who have said they gave my old rules a spin (including on YouTube). I can only guess as to whether there was anyone outside of my immediate circle who used these rules back when I first had them printed. But it did make me laugh when I saw someone on this site speculating that I might have made a mint from this game if only I had the gumption to sell it. That never would have occurred to me back then, in part because this was a time when many of us thought of charging for certain things as almost transgressive. That was as true for the zines we all published as it was for the software that some (not me) coded and for the game I wrote. There are some parallels to be found in the people like Bill Gates, and the D&D entrepreneurs, who each soon managed to get past that social constraint and make businesses out of what we had treated as friendly opportunities to share. Even if it had occurred to me at age 14 to monetize what had been a labor of love, I would not have known the first thing about how to do it.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Dec 23, 2019 22:11:08 GMT -5
Yes, I had seen that, as well as one or two others who have said they gave my old rules a spin (including on YouTube). I can only guess as to whether there was anyone outside of my immediate circle who used these rules back when I first had them printed. But it did make me laugh when I saw someone on this site speculating that I might have made a mint from this game if only I had the gumption to sell it. That never would have occurred to me back then, in part because this was a time when many of us thought of charging for certain things as almost transgressive. That was as true for the zines we all published as it was for the software that some (not me) coded and for the game I wrote. There are some parallels to be found in the people like Bill Gates, and the D&D entrepreneurs, who each soon managed to get past that social constraint and make businesses out of what we had treated as friendly opportunities to share. Even if it had occurred to me at age 14 to monetize what had been a labor of love, I would not have known the first thing about how to do it. Some of that still lives on, there are still games being done just to share and others you have to pay to see the rules. Some make hard copies available through POD for the cost of printing and shipping only with which all goes to the printer/shipper, but some charge about the same as WotC. I am very picky about the Kickstarters I back and the things I buy. But I look at as much of the shared stuff I can find.
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