How to run and play D&D5E as an Old School Game

[Deleted]

I don’t see myself as anyone special when it comes to running an old school game. Apparently, though, there are quite a few folks who just don’t see how you can run anything other than an old school game in that style. I guess that’s where I come in, having been formally asked – How do you do it? I don’t know what I can add to the topic at hand that hasn’t been said before, but I’ll give it a shot.

Firstly, we need to speak the same language. My go to guy for anything old school is Matt Finch. You might remember him as the creator of Swords & Wizardry, but he also wrote a fantastic article on old school play that will be central to our discussion.

A Quick Primer for Old School Gaming

Go ahead and download it. Read it. Learn it. Live it. Breath it. It is your new religion.

Matt describes "Four Zen Moments" to learning and understanding old school play and they really are more than ‘ah-ha’ moments. Calling them Zen moments is not by accident, as they are profound and significant pillars as to what is old school.

I’m going to break this treatment on the subject up in segments, so as to allow for the format of questions and answers. Also, it is my belief that shorter entries tend to imprint themselves on the minds of online readers easier. Ready? Here we go.

First Zen Moment: Rulings, not Rules.

Rules are NOT in and of themselves old or new school. They are simply devices to assist a DM/GM/Ref make decisions in his/her game. Gygax understood this implicitly, as is derived from his quote about Refs not needing rule books to play. Rules are NOT in and of them selves old or new school. It bears repeating. Skill rolls exist in Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller, and both are considered old school games - not so much because of their rules, but because how their rules are applied.

The old school player doesn’t need a rule to search a room, but there are degrees as to how thoroughly the player may have searched. If the player is very specific, then a RULING may suffice. The DM/GM/Ref may decide to tell the player what he/she found – if anything. Not all players are created alike, however, and this is where a skill role may come into play. Not every situation falls to the bounce of a die in old school play. This method also increases the immersion into the game – the player becomes more intimately involved in the gameworld without the distraction of rolling dice. He or she is living and breathing the world with every action of their character, and most people will tell you this is RPGs at their best.

I recently had an ex 4th edition player, now 5E, search a room simply by rolling his 20-sider. He then asked what did he find. I said, with such a cursory glance into the room, you find nothing. He insisted he should have found something based on his roll – if there was anything to find at all. I replied, how could you have found anything without telling me where you are looking? This is a large room with several unique features and plenty of furniture. Forget the dice for a moment and play the game. That’s when I saw a flash in his eyes, that ‘ah-ha’ moment that in time and training, will become so much more – even second nature to his play style.

[Hexenritter Verlag]

Thanks for he post JMiskimen.

When I ran 5e I got frustrated by Passive Perception as once you bump it via feats and such, it became nearly impossible to sneak up on or past certain characters. I may have just not understood how PP worked as I should have. I really need to reread the rules again. But how do you deal with Passive Perception in your games? Do you use it at all or only when you think it comes into play? If I ever run 5e again, I'll let my players know rolls will be omitted or modified by role play, thus they will need to describe their actions to the best of their ability. 

[Deleted]

Passive Perception is the Difficulty Number a sneaking character/NPC needs to clear to sneak or hide. As a DM/GM/Ref, you may modify that number according to the situation. Be fair. Also consider that initiative BTB is rolled by each character, some may be surprised while others may not depending on Hide rolls.

It sounds like somebody min/maxed perception. That's okay ... That character is really observant - but if that character fails, I would be very reluctant to permit anybody else a notice check, because he's the best at being Mr. Peepers. It's like when the guy with the 18 strength fails to open a door and the guy with a 9 says "let me try" ... uh, no.

Much like searching a room, I'm wanting to know what a character is doing to better (or worsen ...) his/her chance at hiding.

[Hexenritter Verlag]

Thanks for the advice and yes he did min-max his character, but being a rusty Ref I was more forgiving of such behavior as I didn't want to be the kill joy ref. I really have to reread those rules, especially if I ever end up running 5e again and do my best to be fair but not be afraid to let the players get themselves killed. A series of iffy to bad GMs made me gun-shy when it came to killing PCs which is on me for allowing their influence to taint my reffing of the game.

Concerning combat, since combats can get long especially at higher levels - so how do you run them? Maybe a brief example.

I know this is a major thing I need to up my game on in 5e if I run it again & it is definitely one that I have a hard time envisioning how to best Old Skool it. I am not saying it can't be done, it is more about how to do so with all the powers a PC accumulates as they level. In OD&D you are expected to use tactics and if possible evade detection, but 5e makes it easier to just wade in to combat especially at later levels. I know you can use tactics & evasion, as my old 5e group were very good at this but there was times it was just a grind as the high HPs and various buffs tended to prolong combat unless you had 1 HD monsters, which the PCs waded through by then. A lot of this is based on I was a rusty noob Ref, who only ran a few Cyberspace & 2e AD&D adventures when I was a teen. 

[Deleted]

You have more options than ever in 5E when it comes to combat and what you can do, and on the surface this looks like more tactics have been built into the game, so all I have to do is autopilot my character through combat ... this will get you killed in a game designed to make it hard to die. As I've said before, Dead PC do not equate old school. It's the same as ever; dead PCs mean your players aren't thinking about their character during play.

Tactics. Tactics. TACTICS. As I told my players just a week or two ago, if you're standing in the square directly in front of the Troll, he is going to kill you. Flank him for advantage. Get behind him for advantage; be anywhere but that front square. And for Mystra's sake, use fire or acid on the beast once per round. Archer - take an action to prepare a flaming arrow attack! Sound familiar? It should to a long time D&D player; but you know what? Most of this advice was ignored and there were fatalities where I got to describe in Natural Geographic detail as to how the Trolls ripped them to shreds and chewed on their raw entrails.

I don't know if it's old school of not, but I like detailing attacks and combat results. It draws the players in, as not everyone's mind's eye works on the same level or frequency. It also gets the players in on the act, then - the next thing you know - everyone is role-playing during combat. It's a beautiful thing when it works. Like I said, I don't know if that's old school; but it's immersion in the game and that sounds old school to me.

I'll be honest, the highest level game I've run so far is 6th level. The game can be unforgiving, even with death saves. Walking into a dungeon thinking your the Big Red Cheese or Superman or something and you'll get knocked down pretty darn quick. I run my monsters as thinking beings who understand tactics and use them to deadly effect. I can kill that 6th level party I spoke of above with 6 kobolds if I wanted to. Seriously. And I'd wager they'd never see them.

So I'm not sure how high level combat goes. I haven't made it there yet. Your best bet is to keep it moving though. Be real zippy in your diatribe on the effects of the combat and keep it hustling. This will keep the energy up and no one should be thinking about it being a slog to get through.

[Hexenritter Verlag]

Thanks again for the reply. I am enjoying this conversation as I think it might help me get over my issues with 5e, which I think for more issues with my skills at that time & I blame the system on my lack of skill. I have to understand I may have run things incorrectly, forgetting to use monster abilities properly and was too nice to my players by coddling them and allowing them to use untested rules from UAs without knowing how OP they could become. You earn an exalt.

[Deleted]

Second Zen Moment: Player Skill, not Character Abilities

The one question that comes up time and again at the table is, “would my character know that?” What I like to tell players is your game knowledge is what makes your character exceptional in a world full of NPCs. Player skill cannot and should not be ignored or handwaved away. Sure, your 5E character has skills and abilities that separate him from normals, but so does everyone else at the table playing a character. Player skill brings even more diversity to the table. Player skill represents what these novice adventurers have heard in ballads and tavern tales, if you need an ingame reason for it existing. You need not Role-play your character to death via forced ignorance.

I think it was Bob Bledsaw that said something to the effect that it’s not his fault your characters picked a first level dungeon that has a Red Dragon lair in it. Your 1st level dumb-dumbs should be smart enough to not bother the beast or they deserve a fiery death. In the natural world, there is very little balance when it comes to your individual survival. What makes man a dangerous animal that can contend with apex predators in the wild is his intelligence, otherwise he’s just another item on the food chain menu. I go to Natural Geographic’s documentaries all the time to rationalize what some may consider imbalances to my games.

But let’s be rational in doing this – dumb/dead characters does not an old school game make. Help the PCs out with rumors or what should be obvious clues about what awaits them. As my old man used to say, give them all the rope they need to hang themselves with. Not every encounter with a monster should necessarily default to a combat situation – not if you have thinking players exercising their skill of the game.

I’m currently running an old school module at the store that is about a level and a half higher than the party’s current level. Why? Because they have had a pretty easy time of it in previous old school modules that I have run. It’s about 5th level now and time for a few challenges. It has been challenging, and then some, as it has forced my players to actually think about combat electives and finally embrace tactics as their friend.

D&D isn’t all about combat, but there is enough of it going on that players need to become fairly good players of the game as well as good role-players – not just the character personalities and such; but understanding their roles as character classes in the party. Player skill is vital for that old school feel, and should be constantly encouraged.

[Hexenritter Verlag]

JMiskimen said:

"Not every encounter with a monster should necessarily default to a combat situation – not if you have thinking players exercising their skill of the game.
"

Though my old 5e group would often use tactics, their fall back idea was you needed to kill a monster to gain his treasure & frankly I fostered that Idea as that was how most of my old groups ran things. It took joining this group and reading reading the Old School Primer that I figured out that combat with monsters need not be a given. 

You are also correct as a Ref it is our job to give the player their rope to hang themselves; whether they do so is on them. 

Jmiskimen, I am loving these posts, keep them up. 

[Deleted]

Third Zen Moment: Heroic, not Superhero

I think most everyone here has a handle on this one. That said, I try to add what I can without repeating what Uncle Matt has to say on the subject.

To say 'Heroic' might rub some of you wrong, as there is a prevailing attitude in the old school that Swords & Sorcery is the way to go, and heroic stuff isn't what the game is about. Yes and No. Appendix N is full of heroes, but at the same time, they are not over the top heroes like Superman. Keep your scenarios very personal to your player characters and try to keep them as 'realistic' as possible in a game about dragons, dungeons, wizards, and such.

If you must include stories in your game, which I don't exactly believe you do, tell those stories through NPCs and leave the Player's characters as wild cards in the story - mostly because you have no idea what they'll do and you should absolutely not base the story on an action the PC has no decision on. The PCs are Not your darn characters. Your story is not required to have the ending you foresee, and it'll probably be far more interesting if you let the PCs be themselves.

In my opinion, avoid most Greek myths like the plague, as they were in a lot of ways, the first comic book stories. The story of Odysseus might be okay, but Hercules is definitely out.

5E may seem superheroic to a lot of 0D&D players, but really it's not. There are fewer Feats to deal with and those that are there have been scaled way back from previous editions. Abilities have the potential to go up to 20, but this is not a common thing, whether you roll dice or point buy a character.  The skill system is pretty well handled and not overpowering considering the DM holds all the cards by determining the difficulty number to beat - there is a potential for misuse here on the DMs part by administering poor judgement, however. Good DMs are fair and impartial.

With all of the items above, it's still Batman's game rather than Superman, RAW, unless you go out of your way to write a campaign more suited for Krypton's Greatest Son. As the Zen moments occur, you'll find that most of what makes D&D5E playable as an old school game is attitude, your approach to running the game, your subject matter ... all of it comes down to YOU Mr. Dungeon Master.

[mao]

Great stuff! I was only planning on taking a quick look at this , but now I will read with attention.

[Hexenritter Verlag]

JMiskimen said: 

"If you must include stories in your game, which I don't exactly believe you do, tell those stories through NPCs and leave the Player's characters as wild cards in the story - mostly because you have no idea what they'll do and you should absolutely not base the story on an action the PC has no decision on. The PCs are Not your darn characters. Your story is not required to have the ending you foresee, and it'll probably be far more interesting if you let the PCs be themselves.
"

This is what I think is a big problem with some GMs - you see comments in FB groups & in forums about 1) how the GM plot hammers the players or 2) The Players just ignored all the stuff I prepped for the session boo hoo. Two of my past GMs loved to push their story-lines, they'd give you wiggle room but something would happen to force you down the path they had planned. Even I was guilty to a degree, but most of my infractions had to do with tossing character related threads that disrupted things the players initially planned. But I can blame my growing frustration with the rules I was using as prompting these missteps - still my fault, yet they were not intended to be plot hammers they turned into. I was trying to give my players things tied to their characters & their background; of which mishandled poorly. 

JMiskimen said: 

"5E may seem superheroic to a lot of 0D&D players, but really it's not. There are fewer Feats to deal with and those that there are have been scaled way back from previous editions. Abilities have the potential to go up to 20, but this is not a common thing, whether you roll dice or point buy a character. The skill system is pretty well handled and not overpowering considering the DM holds all the cards by determining the difficulty number to beat - there is a potential for misuse here on the DMs part by administering poor judgement, however. Good DMs are fair and impartial.
"

You are correct to OD&D (and Basic to AD&D) players 5E seems super-heroic in comparison but far less than 3.5 D&D/PF & 4e D&D could make it. The only issue I had with the skill system was you couldn't learn knew skills unless you either multi-class or take a feat that gave you more skills. But at the time I ran 5e from level one to 20, I had been a player in Rolemaster campaigns for nearly a decade, played in 3.5 D&D/PF or Palladium Fantasy or RIFTS games so the limited skills annoyed me. It also was an issue I had with OD&D to AD&D 1e and their clones, the idea of having no skills seemed alien to me - but I got over it.

Like you said, it has to do with DMs being fair & you really need to ground yourself with the rules before running it. If I ever run it again in the future I'll get a firm understanding on how running monsters abilities work so I don't make many of the mistakes I made running more powerful monsters. I'll also vet any untested UA additions my players might want to try out before allowing them (UA Psionics rules I am looking at you!).

[El Borak]

Sounds like a lot of good advice guys, I don't have any of the 5E books so I am not sure what you are talking about in some areas. In OD&D if I hear a player say I wish I was multi-classed so I had this skill and I would say this is OD&D so you can try that anyway. Lets look at the parameters and decide what a reasonable chance of success is.

Do you guys do some of that with 5E?

[Deleted]

Nearly every game of 5E I run ... I like to help PCs to attempt stuff; i'm very much a yes DM ...Not a pushover cause I'll call them on stupid scooby doo plans that'll never work - for instance: propping up dead goblins with sticks in a cave - with a stone floor, mind you - in an attempt to scare an owlbear deeper in the cave ... smh.

[Deleted]

Fourth Zen Moment: Forget “Game Balance.”

Here's another one the Good Folks of The Ruins of Murkhill got a pretty good handle on, but this doesn't just apply to the gameworld and encounters. There need not be balance among player character Classes either. As the Pawn is not an equal to the Knight, so is it the same for Character Classes. Each have a role they should fulfil; that roll may not be the equal to another. No big deal. 

Game balance became important in D&D when AD&D was produced, and the powers that be wanted it to be the tournament rules for the game. In such a contest, sure, you'd want an even playing field. I'm not knocking on AD&D, just stating a fact. From there on Balance and its importance became more and more ingrained in the rules.

5E has a healthy does of Balance issues. I'm okay with that. Monster Encounter ratings, or CR, are all messed up, in my opinion ... but again, I'm okay with it. Certain Cantrips are more powerful than previous editions ... It's all right. As The Master said, "Be like Water ..." Flow with it. For all the beefed up character abilities, Monsters are a terror when run properly in 5E. It may not be perfect Balance, but it does even out pretty well - enough so that it can feel old school pretty quickly.

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

This is good stuff!