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Post by makofan on Apr 7, 2015 14:22:59 GMT -5
Hello
I am not an expert or anything, but I have run many successful pBp games. These games are not just limited to D&D - I received this PM from a player
which made me very happy. I get lots of these unsolicited PM's. Best as I can tell, I am filling a need. But why am I so successful? I don't quite know. I will espouse a little of my philosophy, and if there is anything here that you think will stick, please feel to steal it.
#1) DEFINE THE GAME AND EXPECTATIONS
If you have designed a dungeon crawl and they want to trawl taverns for adventure hooks and then spend three weeks roleplaying, neither side will be happy. Her ewas initial post for my Verbosh campaign, which is now in its 8th year
The first paragraph outlines the rules system and the time commitment (I have relaxed the time commitment - that was part of the learning experience). The second paragraph gives the setting, and how that setting influences play. The third and fourth paragraphs give the players guidance and lets them know what to expect. The last paragraph explains my style so the players know in advance
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Post by makofan on Apr 7, 2015 14:28:00 GMT -5
#2 - COMMUNICATE!
If you are not clear what is going on, step in and ask for clarity. Players should not die because you failed to divine their intent. And if you messed up, apologize and retcon. PM's can be sent for more direct or sensitive questions
#3 - ACCOMMODATE
If you sense a player is not having fun, PM them and find out what you can do for them. I had one player who did not like the idea of tomb robbing, so we chatted and I split him off from the party on more noble quests. He likes roleplaying out encounters and living like he is in a novel. He now has a like-minded group with him in a different part of the world. Another player was tired of roleplaying and wanted to carve out a barony. He is engaged in that in the western part of the campaign
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Post by makofan on Apr 7, 2015 14:34:46 GMT -5
#4 = THE PLAYERS ARE THE STARS
Don't be afraid to be a bit permissive or rewarding. The pace of a game is so much slower online that you have to let them level/get more powerful/indulge their whims more than you would face to face. Frederick the hobbit wanted a wardog, or something similar. I went gonzo and offered him a warpig (from the last Hobbit movie). He loved it! Normally I would have played it straight, and thought a warpig was stupid, but does it really matter if it is a dog, a pony, a pig or a beetle? Go with the flow.
Another player was broke. I gave him a 100 gold pieces advance as a commission from the Earl. Face to face, I would never have done that. But it got him started, got him moving, and in the end, a 100 gold coin gift does not overbalance anything.
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Post by makofan on Apr 7, 2015 14:37:06 GMT -5
#5 - BE STRICT BUT FAIR
I have had 26 deaths in my game, including two TPK's. For both TPK's the party knew they were being stupid, but went ahead anyway. They died. I believe without the imminent fear of death, the game has no meaning
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Post by makofan on Apr 7, 2015 14:41:24 GMT -5
#6 - PROVIDE INTERESTING CHOICES
The players need agency, but it is hard to get consensus in a pBp group, so sometimes you have to limit your vision and say "Choose A or B". As long as both choices bring interesting consequences and interesting situations, you are golden and the players will be happy.
Now I have to run off an do some work!
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Post by randyb on Apr 7, 2015 16:02:11 GMT -5
#4 = THE PLAYERS ARE THE STARS Don't be afraid to be a bit permissive or rewarding. The pace of a game is so much slower online that you have to let them level/get more powerful/indulge their whims more than you would face to face. Frederick the hobbit wanted a wardog, or something similar. I went gonzo and offered him a warpig (from the last Hobbit movie). He loved it! Normally I would have played it straight, and thought a warpig was stupid, but does it really matter if it is a dog, a pony, a pig or a beetle? Go with the flow. Another player was broke. I gave him a 100 gold pieces advance as a commission from the Earl. Face to face, I would never have done that. But it got him started, got him moving, and in the end, a 100 gold coin gift does not overbalance anything. Bold for emphasis. I have seen PbP and PbeM games killed outright because the DM/GM overlooked this simple point. "Stuff" has to happen at the pace of the players' time, rather than the characters' time, or else any game dies from lethargy. In PbP and PbeM, that means exactly what you've said here.
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Post by Admin Pete on Apr 7, 2015 16:05:28 GMT -5
This is great stuff makofan, have an Exalt!
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Post by tetramorph on Apr 7, 2015 17:13:55 GMT -5
makofan, I second the person who paid you that compliment. From my own experience over on ODD74 I know you are great at this. (And I have some idea whom you are talking about in some of your examples ). EXALT! Point taken about defining the game and expectations. I have only one PbP to date: my Dun Kells Risk right here, that you are involved in. I think I have defined the game well (I hope). But I know I could have done a better job giving my expectations up front. As you had hoped for daily posting, I realize now that I had the vague expectation that the turn phases (the sub parts of each turn) would each take about a week. I think we can achieve that, once a few problems are cleared up. Should I have stated that up front (yes, I answered myself). Is it too late? Should I discuss it with my players now? As far as providing interesting choices, sometimes just a. or b., the constraints of the Risk game itself seem, so far, to be providing that for me. I know I will return to this thread often, especially as I ponder running more in Dun Kells (like a HX crawl) and possibly something more GONZO (as I posted over in "house rules"). Thank you for this.
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Post by Necromancer on Apr 8, 2015 7:07:36 GMT -5
Great posts, makofan! Thank you so much for sharing. I've been curious about PbP for a while, thinking it might be a good solution for me since it's hard for me to find the opportunity to play in real life. I've also been interested in trying out running a game of my own later on, perhaps to test out the campaign setting I'm working on. So these posts you've made here are perfect for a noob like me!
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Post by merias on Apr 8, 2015 8:09:51 GMT -5
Yes, wonderful topic, it's nice to see tips from someone experienced at keeping a PbP going. I have played in quite a few PbP games, and from the players perspective I think #6 in is key - we want meaningful choices to make, although the other side to that is that too many choices can slow things down (although I'd rather have too many than too few and have the PbP feel like a railroad). I have also been thinking that each post by the referee should finish with a question to the players, hopefully with some bit of tension to keep players engaged. In a couple of games I'm in the referee always asks 'Actions?' at the end of each of his posts, if nothing else it reminds you, the player that your character needs to do something.
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Post by makofan on Apr 8, 2015 8:30:48 GMT -5
#7 - TIMING AND JUDGEMENT
This is the tricky one, and it is based on your feel for the players, your knowledge of the situation, and just plain experience. Sometimes you wait for people, sometimes you have to move on.
Here is an extreme example. The players had opened a door and a rush of green slime came out. I asked players for their actions. All but one responded in a few days. I was left waiting for one player. I PM'ed him, I emailed him, I asked for his response in the thread, and got nothing. I had held up the game for two weeks. I decided he was frozen in fear, allowed the others to run away, and engulfed the AWOL player in green slime.
I feel that he failed his social contract. When you join a bowling league, your team expects you to show. If you join a baseball team, you are expected to show. If you join Toastmasters, you are expected to pull your weight. Allowances must be made, of course, but ultimately you must accept responsibility.
Other times, you can just NPC the player - it's not a big deal. I only follow up if that player becomes a constant issue. I then suggest they retire the character, and we'll unretired any time he is ready ("We'll keep the light on for you")
And some times, you have maybe half the people chiming in and you move the action along anyway because you are pretty sure the laggards are not going to object. Unless it is a combat round with some key decisions to be made, I will usually advance the action once I get a majority of people posting actions.
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Post by makofan on Apr 8, 2015 8:53:19 GMT -5
#8 - DICE ROLLING
This is a tough one for some players to swallow. I will no longer GM or Play as a PC in any game where the GM does not roll the dice. There are forums like Unseen Servant which have excellent dice rolling capabilities. What I have found, is letting players roll their own dice slows the game to a crawl, at least doubling, sometimes tripling the length of encounters.
A simple example - Leif and Garrett are fighting two spiders. Leif and Garrett both state they are fighting hand-to-hand this round
IF THE GM ROLLS THE DICE I roll initiative both sides (Players 3, Spiders 5 - spiders win initiative) I roll attack dice; spiders roll a 3 and a 17, Garrett is hit I roll Garrett's saving throw - he gets a 16, success I roll the damage to Garret - a 2, he is still alive I roll Leif and Garrett's attacks - 14 and 17, both hit I roll Leif and Garret's damage - 4 and 3 respectively, Leif's spider dies I sum up the situation and ask for actions This takes me about 15 minutes
IF THE PLAYERS ROLL THEIR OWN DICE I roll initiative for spiders, and wait for one of the players to roll initiative dice - action is held up I roll attack dice; spiders roll a 3 and a 17, Garrett is hit I wait for Garrett's saving throw - action is held up I wait for Leif and Garrett's attacks - action is held up I wait for Leif and Garret's damage - action is held up I sum up the situation and ask for actions This could take 7-8 days
Now pretend you have 6 people in the party and the situation is not as straightforward as this example. Just kill me now!
The corollary of this is to be strictly fair. I write down all the actions everybody is taking, determine what dice rolls have to be made, then go to Hamete Virtual Dice Server (http://dicelog.com/dice) and roll all the dice and apply them. I then roll ancillary dice as necessary.
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Post by makofan on Apr 8, 2015 9:08:23 GMT -5
#9 - TONE AND MECHANICS D&D is a game of immersion and imagination. Mechanics interrupt this flow, this suspension of disbelief, but mechanics are necessary for adjudication, to resolve conflict, to give a sense of achieving by overcoming, to create plot, and so on. As an attempt to best serve my players, I usually describe everything in prose form, then at the bottom tack on the mechanics for those who are interested. The above combat example might be posted like this: "Leif and Garrett nervously stand their ground, realizing that if they fail to stop the advancing monstrosities, then the baby unicorn will die. The foot-long spiders are even quicker than anticipated, and fall on the two in a horrid rush. Leif manages to skip away from a bite, but Garrett is not so fortunate, receiving a painful bite on the shin. Poison stabs through his veins, but his hardy constitution fails to succumb to its power. They strike back, both dealing damaging blows, Leif's stab penetrating right through the spider's head. There is only one spider left now, seriously wounded, What do the players do? MECHANICS
Initiative: Players 3, Spiders 5 - spiders win initiative spider @leif - 3 MISS spider @garrett - 17 hit for 2 damage Garrett save vs Poison: 16 - success! Leif @spider - 14 HIT for <1d6>=4 damage, killing it Garrett @spider - 17 HIT for <1d6=3> damage
WOUNDS Garrett 4/6
Spider #1 - DEAD Spider #2 - taken 3 damage
Read more: ruinsofmurkhill.proboards.com/thread/202/running-play-post-game?page=1&scrollTo=1965#ixzz3Wj6uSxEs
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Post by Admin Pete on Apr 8, 2015 22:16:53 GMT -5
This some really good advice makofan. You already have part of a supplement written here.
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Post by ffilz on Apr 21, 2015 17:58:34 GMT -5
Lots of good advice. I think I need to read up a bit more.
One thing that also helped with pacing was to nominate a caller. That allows the GM to call on another voice to unstick things if the game stalls.
Frank
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Post by ffilz on Apr 21, 2015 18:30:58 GMT -5
Oh, another thing I will do to speed up play is run multiple rounds of combat when the situation has not changed sufficiently to be likely that the PCs would choose different actions. Mostly this means when the PCs are on a roll and the damage they are taking is not that serious.
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Post by makofan on Apr 23, 2015 10:54:14 GMT -5
#10 - POSTING AND CREATIVITY
DMing is fun, rewarding, and a bit draining. We all have our strengths and weaknesses - I am a computer programmer with good skills in logistics and project management. I am reasonably articulate in print (having written many manuals, and having had a few fiction stories printed). I struggle with creativity. So one trick I have is to read the responses during the day, or before I go to bed, then post the next day. This gives my subconscious time to come up with neat ideas, or draw connections between disparate events
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Post by jmccann on Apr 23, 2015 20:42:33 GMT -5
You have already addressed this to an extent but this is the main thing that concerns me. I understand the pace will be slow, I played a lot of PBEM wargames about a decade ago. What bugs me though is the social contract you mention. To have a multiplayer game last and be satisfying, all of the players have to have at least similar expectations about the pace of the game. How do you handle inevitable "churn" of players and, to put it bluntly, laggards who repeatedly delay a game where others are closely engaged?
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Post by makofan on Apr 24, 2015 8:43:16 GMT -5
jmccannI have no good answer for you. What usually happens is after a month or two you will find your 'core' players. You then PM the laggards and ask them what they want. Here are some suggestions: - inactivate them (basically, you are kicking them out of a game they show no interest in, but don't delete their character. When they are ready to post more, they can rejoin) - spin them off on their own adventure with a more appropriate timimg for them (this takes extra effort on the DM's part as you are running a second thread) - keep them in the party, and just ask them to post in combat situations (many people, me included, are not interested in the minutiae and just want to kill things and take their stuff) I have done all three, with varying success
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Post by Von on Apr 26, 2015 8:53:01 GMT -5
This is all blindingly good advice. I have tried to run a PbP and it's crashed and burned horribly; if I decide to give it another crack I shall be driving these words into my eyeballs beforehand. I Exalt thee.
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Post by Robert the Black on May 4, 2015 16:15:05 GMT -5
This is great stuff and it is one great take on it. Perhaps as more pbp games are run others can add to this thread form their experiences too! Have an Exalt!
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Post by merctime on May 4, 2015 18:42:47 GMT -5
This is a fantastic series of posts.
Mako, your Verbosh game is incredible, even though I only played in it a short time (due only to my circumstance, folks... be assured of that!), it is still an incredibly enjoyable read even if one does not (or cannot) play in it. Well over 7 years, right? Astonishing!
This advice is easily worthy of an exalt. So be it!
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Post by merctime on Jun 2, 2015 12:26:50 GMT -5
makofan , would you mind if I collected your posts here into a simple PDF? I could email it to you for your approval and so you could post it if you want. It would make it easier for me to print out, too... So I suppose I'm being secretly selfish!!
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Post by makofan on Jun 2, 2015 12:32:12 GMT -5
Sure, go ahead. They are not well-thought out essays, more or less off the cuff remarks, but whatever
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Post by merctime on Jul 9, 2015 11:44:13 GMT -5
I'd like to jump in here with a quick tip that piggy-backs on Makofan's excellent advice above.
If you are one of those DM's who sweats the details and does a lot of prep-work before the game... Don't forget the little details that immediately affect the game in all of your work! It's easy to do, especially if you haven't DM'd in forever, and haven't ever ran a pBp.
Case in point: In my game, I spent days organizing my home notes and making digital copies of my maps so any players would have a solid backdrop campaign to play in.
But when I began play, I forgot to orient the dungeon map to the local world map, and this was a bit more disastrous than it might seem.
As I was describing the dungeon to the players, my sense of direction got screwed up, and thus so did theirs. Something as simple as what way west is, and getting that resolved, basically ruined a whole day of posting and probably contributed to annoyance as well as certainly contributing to confusion.
Simple fix in a face-to-face, at the table game. Not so simple in a pBp when available player post time is certainly an issue. Don't let yourself get caught being unable to see the tree because of the forest.
If you're going to go big on a campaign, I'd get the small stuff done first... All the way, like flipping any digital maps your using the right way and putting a compass rose on it or getting the notes down for immediate local interest areas... And then flesh out the rest of the campaign. It will save you some heartache, and your players some frustration and lost time.
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Feb 18, 2018 2:20:19 GMT -5
makofan , would you mind if I collected your posts here into a simple PDF? I could email it to you for your approval and so you could post it if you want. It would make it easier for me to print out, too... So I suppose I'm being secretly selfish!! merctime, do you still have a copy of this PDf you could share? I'd love to have a copy of it.
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Post by The Master on Feb 19, 2018 0:40:23 GMT -5
makofan , would you mind if I collected your posts here into a simple PDF? I could email it to you for your approval and so you could post it if you want. It would make it easier for me to print out, too... So I suppose I'm being secretly selfish!! merctime , do you still have a copy of this PDf you could share? I'd love to have a copy of it. merctime hasn't logged in for a year and a half, and I think he is another member who has some heavy duty personal stuff going on. makofan did he ever send you the pdf? Hexenritter Verlag I can't speak for makofan, but based on earlier comments I would posit that he would be fine with you making a copy and printing it for your own use.
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Feb 19, 2018 2:08:02 GMT -5
Cool. Thanks for the reply, life happens & not always in the ways we wish.
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Post by makofan on Feb 19, 2018 16:33:54 GMT -5
Feel free to collect my ramblings in a PDF. Merctime got busy and never got around to it.
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Feb 20, 2018 0:33:55 GMT -5
Feel free to collect my ramblings in a PDF. Merctime got busy and never got around to it. Cool, will do makofan, I really enjoyed them - they provide great advice, I'll try to apply to any PbP games I run.
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