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Post by True Black Raven on Apr 29, 2018 23:11:44 GMT -5
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dragondaddy
Traveler
Currently Running/Playing 0D&D, 5e D&D, Classic Traveller
Posts: 120
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Post by dragondaddy on Apr 30, 2018 15:36:55 GMT -5
I don't usually give much credit to media articles not produced directly by gamers, and even give articles posted by gamers an evaluation based on my personal experiences and memories from the wargaming golden era, and early days of roleplaying games.
For example, both Gary and Dave regretted the way things worked out, and both had hoped for better appreciation and acceptance from the general public of their works. Their disagreements, competitions, and contentions interfered with their collective success in the early days, and later on, after Gary had received the same treatment he gave to Dave, he mellowed out considerably, and I would say his best years were actually 1974-77, and from 2002 on...
Also, pretty sure Rob helped with the thief rules, if not in the original, than in the writing and playtesting to include in the D&D rules book, Greyhawk. Probably best to ask him about that directly though.
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Post by True Black Raven on May 1, 2018 11:32:14 GMT -5
Thanks for the info and I agree. Unfortunately I think there were some people that did not want Dave and Gary to get along and they aggravated things if we were to know the full story.
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Post by captaincrumbcake on May 1, 2018 23:33:52 GMT -5
Rob (Kuntz) has revealed a lot of information through his forum posting over the years. His published works (Greyhawk Supplement 1/co-writer; DATG, etc.) offer more. I'm sure his role and contributions to the game will be fully realized soon enough.
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Post by mormonyoyoman on May 2, 2018 4:12:15 GMT -5
It can no longer be soon enough. It will have to be "finally."
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Post by robkuntz on May 2, 2018 11:26:33 GMT -5
Heh. People believe what they want to. I had nothing to do with the thief class, and Gary actually lifted that from some West Coast guys, and then reiterated it; I forget the whole story and will ask Paul Stormberg who knows the whole sequence.
I did create and contribute many things, the biggest one being different dice used for determining the different PC class HPs.
One should not only view Gary's and my own relationship through we did or did not do, to not view it as mutually exclusive. We were co-creators and co DMs and as such much of what we shared between each other inspired each of us in the creating of many things that have gone un-noted but are not forgotten.
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Post by mormonyoyoman on May 2, 2018 11:42:43 GMT -5
I suppose that's better than "Forgotten but not gone" to quote Moss Hart.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2018 12:15:05 GMT -5
Heh. People believe what they want to. People also like sensationalism, so they keep trying to get me to gossip about Gary and Dave's disagreements. Including at least one "documentary" that "interviewed" me. I refused, and continue to refuse. "The evil that men do lives on, the good is oft interred with their bones." Perhaps, but I shall not participate.
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dragondaddy
Traveler
Currently Running/Playing 0D&D, 5e D&D, Classic Traveller
Posts: 120
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Post by dragondaddy on May 2, 2018 18:14:33 GMT -5
Heh. People believe what they want to. I had nothing to do with the thief class, and Gary actually lifted that from some West Coast guys, and then reiterated it; I forget the whole story and will ask Paul Stormberg who knows the whole sequence. I did create and contribute many things, the biggest one being different dice used for determining the different PC class HPs. One should not only view Gary's and my own relationship through we did or did not do, to not view it as mutually exclusive. We were co-creators and co DMs and as such much of what we shared between each other inspired each of us in the creating of many things that have gone un-noted but are not forgotten. I don't believe just what i want to. I believe in facts, and go to great efforts to learn facts, and specifically the truth. ...Especially in regards to the early history of wargaming, and, of course, roleplaying games. Also, good to know, Thank You! This is one of the reasons I really like talking to the people who were actually involved is its much easier to get the actual story of what really happened. Now I'm going to have to track down the website where I read that you were an important part of designing the Thief Class, and well, ...provide some corrections regarding that. Still though, that co-creator part totally applies, and I'm fairly certain I'm not out of order in stating that you were part of the playtest group for the original Dungeons & Dragons, ...so surely, you had some exposure to other players who were working on the thief class as part of your gaming groups, and some of the insights provided, just from that, is ...well, ...irreplaceable. I used the variable HP for each class as soon as I learned about that, however, because low level D&D was so lethal, did house rule for all the games that I Gmed, that all 1st level characters automatically received the maximum HP that they could, dependent of course, on their character class. Still run my games that way...
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Post by robkuntz on May 3, 2018 8:22:55 GMT -5
Heh. People believe what they want to. I had nothing to do with the thief class, and Gary actually lifted that from some West Coast guys, and then reiterated it; I forget the whole story and will ask Paul Stormberg who knows the whole sequence. I did create and contribute many things, the biggest one being different dice used for determining the different PC class HPs. One should not only view Gary's and my own relationship through we did or did not do, to not view it as mutually exclusive. We were co-creators and co DMs and as such much of what we shared between each other inspired each of us in the creating of many things that have gone un-noted but are not forgotten. I don't believe just what i want to. I believe in facts, and go to great efforts to learn facts, and specifically the truth. ...Especially in regards to the early history of wargaming, and, of course, roleplaying games. Also, good to know, Thank You! This is one of the reasons I really like talking to the people who were actually involved is its much easier to get the actual story of what really happened. Now I'm going to have to track down the website where I read that you were an important part of designing the Thief Class, and well, ...provide some corrections regarding that. Still though, that co-creator part totally applies, and I'm fairly certain I'm not out of order in stating that you were part of the playtest group for the original Dungeons & Dragons, ...so surely, you had some exposure to other players who were working on the thief class as part of your gaming groups, and some of the insights provided, just from that, is ...well, ...irreplaceable. I used the variable HP for each class as soon as I learned about that, however, because low level D&D was so lethal, did house rule for all the games that I Gmed, that all 1st level characters automatically received the maximum HP that they could, dependent of course, on their character class. Still run my games that way... Yeh. People get influenced by facts or sometimes ignore them, thus, they believe what they want to. Facts, btw, are often, just like in science, only provisional truth for what is currently known, and are often re-negotiated when their provisional natures are either challenged or shattered. There's recently been a lot of facts coming out about the creation of the original RPG. In this wake I've not noted a rational/scientific, but rather a emotional/political, view manifesting to guard the past provisional truth. So too reinforcing that people believe what they want to believe notwithstanding the facts. You're welcome for whatever you thanked me for. Well, that site/author may have concluded that since I was the co-author of GH sup 1 in which the class occurs. As I noted, Gary lifted the thief class from some West Coast players who had created it and (i believe) who had informed Jim Lurvey (editor, Great Plains Game Players Newsletter) and he either published it in one of his issues or got Gary in contact with the source. No one in the '72-'74 playtests, or prior to the release of GH sup 1, was playing a thief in LG. This was dropped whole-cloth into the supplement based upon prior playtesting of it by the afore-mentioned, unnamed folks form the West Coast (whose names and affiliations i cannot now recall off the top of the ole noggin').
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Post by simrion on May 3, 2018 18:44:58 GMT -5
Heh. People believe what they want to. I had nothing to do with the thief class, and Gary actually lifted that from some West Coast guys, and then reiterated it; I forget the whole story and will ask Paul Stormberg who knows the whole sequence. I did create and contribute many things, the biggest one being different dice used for determining the different PC class HPs. One should not only view Gary's and my own relationship through we did or did not do, to not view it as mutually exclusive. We were co-creators and co DMs and as such much of what we shared between each other inspired each of us in the creating of many things that have gone un-noted but are not forgotten. For what it's worth and that whole "hindsight" thing...my only opinion on the matter is that you and Gary were good friends having a darn good time playing and creating a darn good game!
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Post by Mighty Darci on May 14, 2018 21:48:27 GMT -5
People need to learn that giving Arneson and robkuntz and others their due is not an insult to Gary and that overstating his part in things to the exclusion of others only makes them look foolish another 50 years from now. Too many people seem to have a financial interest in falsifying history.
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Post by robkuntz on May 15, 2018 5:57:07 GMT -5
Heh. People believe what they want to. I had nothing to do with the thief class, and Gary actually lifted that from some West Coast guys, and then reiterated it; I forget the whole story and will ask Paul Stormberg who knows the whole sequence. I did create and contribute many things, the biggest one being different dice used for determining the different PC class HPs. One should not only view Gary's and my own relationship through we did or did not do, to not view it as mutually exclusive. We were co-creators and co DMs and as such much of what we shared between each other inspired each of us in the creating of many things that have gone un-noted but are not forgotten. For what it's worth and that whole "hindsight" thing...my only opinion on the matter is that you and Gary were good friends having a darn good time playing and creating a darn good game! Yes we did and that is the crux of it the, but times and (some) people change, and thus the continuation of one history morphs into the next and oftentimes then consumes the former.
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Post by robkuntz on May 15, 2018 6:04:17 GMT -5
People need to learn that giving Arneson and robkuntz and others their due is not an insult to Gary and that overstating his part in things to the exclusion of others only makes them look foolish another 50 years from now. Too many people seem to have a financial interest in falsifying history. Yes. Pragmatic views and facts are often shunted aside for narratives filled with less than truth. Tomorrow I will be participating in a phone call which will play out one way or the other and prove which of those perspectives will prevail; if the former, a certain category of history from that time will be brought forward and made known; if the latter, obscurity and the false narrative will prevail, but this time with devastating consequences.
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Post by True Black Raven on May 15, 2018 9:20:12 GMT -5
People need to learn that giving Arneson and robkuntz and others their due is not an insult to Gary and that overstating his part in things to the exclusion of others only makes them look foolish another 50 years from now. Too many people seem to have a financial interest in falsifying history. Yes. Pragmatic views and facts are often shunted aside for narratives filled with less than truth. Tomorrow I will be participating in a phone call which will play out one way or the other and prove which of those perspectives will prevail; if the former, a certain category of history from that time will be brought forward and made known; if the latter, obscurity and the false narrative will prevail, but this time with devastating consequences. Let us all hope that it is the former. Here is wishing you all good fortune and that the truth prevails. The false narrative has to be debunked.
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Post by The Archivist on May 15, 2018 9:53:06 GMT -5
I'm pulling for you robkuntz for a successful phone call.
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Post by Mighty Darci on May 16, 2018 9:52:55 GMT -5
People need to learn that giving Arneson and robkuntz and others their due is not an insult to Gary and that overstating his part in things to the exclusion of others only makes them look foolish another 50 years from now. Too many people seem to have a financial interest in falsifying history. Yes. Pragmatic views and facts are often shunted aside for narratives filled with less than truth. Tomorrow I will be participating in a phone call which will play out one way or the other and prove which of those perspectives will prevail; if the former, a certain category of history from that time will be brought forward and made known; if the latter, obscurity and the false narrative will prevail, but this time with devastating consequences. I'm hoping it all goes well robkuntz.
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Post by robkuntz on May 23, 2018 15:21:00 GMT -5
Yes. Pragmatic views and facts are often shunted aside for narratives filled with less than truth. Tomorrow I will be participating in a phone call which will play out one way or the other and prove which of those perspectives will prevail; if the former, a certain category of history from that time will be brought forward and made known; if the latter, obscurity and the false narrative will prevail, but this time with devastating consequences. I'm hoping it all goes well robkuntz . I'll know in five more days.
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Post by mormonyoyoman on May 23, 2018 17:18:38 GMT -5
Counting down and praying for justice.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2018 14:06:18 GMT -5
I'll know in five more days.
I wait with bated breath.*
*No, not "baited." "Bated" is a form of "abated," so Shakespeare meant the character was holding their breath.
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Post by robkuntz on May 24, 2018 17:39:34 GMT -5
I'll know in five more days.
I wait with bated breath.*
*No, not "baited." "Bated" is a form of "abated," so Shakespeare meant the character was holding their breath.
I understood. This one may well cause one to de-wind.
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Post by True Black Raven on May 24, 2018 23:14:30 GMT -5
I'll know in five more days.
I wait with bated breath.*
*No, not "baited." "Bated" is a form of "abated," so Shakespeare meant the character was holding their breath.
Yeah, 'cause baited breath would be due to a mouthful of worms.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2018 1:20:42 GMT -5
Or a cat eating cheese and sitting outside a mouse hole.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2018 12:27:06 GMT -5
If this is of any consolation, I was out with Bob Meyer and the original Blackmoor Group this past week, and we got the chance to look at the draft version of the documentary "Secrets of Blackmoor". I was very favorably impressed; it's very good, very much what I saw and know, and also respects Gary - it does not demonize him, like all too many 'Arnesonians' tend to do. I'm looking forward to the final cut.
In the interests of transparency, I will also say that while I have very limited (about a minute) 'air time' in this film, I was very extensively interviewed for it due to my status as Prof. Barker's archivist; I am, I gather, getting an on-screen credit as "historical consultant" or suchlike as I provided the film's producers with the information that they needed for their research as I either have it in my files or I know where to get it. I'm told that I will have more 'air time' in the second film that they are working on.
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Post by Admin Pete on May 26, 2018 15:11:56 GMT -5
I'll know in five more days. Do you have any news, hopefully good news robkuntz.
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Post by robkuntz on May 26, 2018 15:45:04 GMT -5
I'll know in five more days. Do you have any news, hopefully good news robkuntz . It's either "Have A Cigar" or it's flip side: "NAPALM"
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Post by Admin Pete on May 26, 2018 16:16:34 GMT -5
If this is of any consolation, I was out with Bob Meyer and the original Blackmoor Group this past week, and we got the chance to look at the draft version of the documentary "Secrets of Blackmoor". I was very favorably impressed; it's very good, very much what I saw and know, and also respects Gary - it does not demonize him, like all too many 'Arnesonians' tend to do. I'm looking forward to the final cut. In the interests of transparency, I will also say that while I have very limited (about a minute) 'air time' in this film, I was very extensively interviewed for it due to my status as Prof. Barker's archivist; I am, I gather, getting an on-screen credit as "historical consultant" or suchlike as I provided the film's producers with the information that they needed for their research as I either have it in my files or I know where to get it. I'm told that I will have more 'air time' in the second film that they are working on. @chirinebakal, the next time you see Bob Meyer or any of the original Blackmoor Group please giving them greetings and a hearty thank you from me and the group here for their part in creating the hobby we share and enjoy. It is great to know that a second film is planned, I am really looking forward to the first one. Regarding "and also respects Gary - it does not demonize him, like all too many 'Arnesonians' tend to do." I think Mighty Darci said it best: People need to learn that giving Arneson and robkuntz and others their due is not an insult to Gary and that overstating his part in things to the exclusion of others only makes them look foolish another 50 years from now. Too many people seem to have a financial interest in falsifying history. There is a middle ground where the truth resides and neither demonizing Gary nor denigrating Arneson are correct and neither is deifying either.
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Post by ripx187 on May 29, 2018 19:02:51 GMT -5
I want to say that the Thief class first appeared in the Alarums & Excursions fan magazine but Wikipedia says this:
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Post by Admin Pete on May 29, 2018 21:45:24 GMT -5
I want to say that the Thief class first appeared in the Alarums & Excursions fan magazine but Wikipedia says this: It is possible both are right, first in a fan publication and first in a game supplement.
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Post by robkuntz on May 30, 2018 4:25:59 GMT -5
I knew it was some fan publication Gary got it from. I don't have that issue of A&E so I do not know how close he matched it. In fact I only learned that he had used it fro A&E after Greyhawk's release.
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