Faithfully Flawed

[Jakob Grimm]

Here is a useful (though biased) review by someone who really doesn't fully understand the original game.

Faithfully Flawed
Here is a quote and I have added emphasis to illustrate the bias and the failure to understand what old school gaming is.

Specifically, this is a review of Delving Deeper Reference Rules Compendium by Simon J. Bull, published via Immersive Ink. However, what I'm writing goes for pretty much every retro-clone that mimics the rule-set and various printings from 1974 - 1976.

In my view, the origins of D&D are interesting and were, of course, necessary for roleplaying games to advance... yet there's a reason why TSR came out with updated versions of the game between 1977 and 1983. Similarly, it's little wonder that practically every gaming group in the 70's had their own house-rules, either ones that came up through actual play or ones they read about in magazines and stories from gaming conventions. Some of is downright decrepit!

This person thinks he knows why TSR came out with updated versions of the game, but is mistaken in his assumptions that the original game and by extension the retro-clones are deficient as the reason.

[Hexenritter Verlag]

It is funny that a cursory research on the history of D&D would've given Venger some context that might have given him better insight to DD and OD&D. The whole "reason why TSR came out with updated versions" bit had me chuckling - really? But I don't need to get into that here as most of the members here lived through it & know this all to well. What I can say is that Venger, for someone who writes gaming material cannot fathom the why's for people like us here to want to go back to OD&D or some clone there of - shows a major bias for games with crunch. I like OD&D because of the lack of crunch & the fact I can play it BtB or house-rule or as I see fit. I can add stuff from the supplements or from other games to fit the needs of my campaign.

[hengest]

Similarly, it's little wonder that practically every gaming group in the 70's had their own house-rules, either ones that came up through actual play or ones they read about in magazines and stories from gaming conventions. Some of is downright decrepit!

Wow, amazing comment from this person.  Yes, what a terrible thing for the world that practically every group...had to come up with their own questions and answers?  Or...that they read a magazine or fanzine about their hobby and used something they saw there?  Awful!  

I know not everyone is into the same stuff...but why on earth would this be a problem?  Was somehow harmed by these house rules?  Did they cause a war?

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Oct 23, 2019 17:52:25 GMT -5 hengest said:

Similarly, it's little wonder that practically every gaming group in the 70's had their own house-rules, either ones that came up through actual play or ones they read about in magazines and stories from gaming conventions. Some of is downright decrepit!

Wow, amazing comment from this person.  Yes, what a terrible thing for the world that practically every group...had to come up with their own questions and answers?  Or...that they read a magazine or fanzine about their hobby and used something they saw there?  Awful!  

I know not everyone is into the same stuff...but why on earth would this be a problem?  Was somehow harmed by these house rules?  Did they cause a war?

Yes, it did cause a war and it is still being fought to this day. And those of us who house rule and make our own original world have been losing the hard fought battle for a long time.We are a tiny niche community that is about 1% the size of the OSR community. But they can all show you on the dolly where those nasty house rules and no prep games harmed them.

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

Nov 5, 2019 3:24:14 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

Oct 23, 2019 17:52:25 GMT -5 hengest said:

Wow, amazing comment from this person.  Yes, what a terrible thing for the world that practically every group...had to come up with their own questions and answers?  Or...that they read a magazine or fanzine about their hobby and used something they saw there?  Awful!  

I know not everyone is into the same stuff...but why on earth would this be a problem?  Was somehow harmed by these house rules?  Did they cause a war?

Yes, it did cause a war and it is still being fought to this day. And those of us who house rule and make our own original world have been losing the hard fought battle for a long time.We are a tiny niche community that is about 1% the size of the OSR community. But they can all show you on the dolly where those nasty house rules and no prep games harmed them.

I've revisiting these DD threads and this really stuck out to me.  I always thought house rules and customizations DEFINE your home game.  It's not difficult to mold something like OD&D, DD, etc. to your needs. If you go messing around and tinkering with a game that has a lot of rules and you do so at your own peril.  You can throw AD&D out of whack pretty easily; not to mention more modern systems.  My buddies and I had the AD&D books in 1980 but were we really playing by the book AD&D?  No. Honestly, we were playing a mish mash of B/X, Holmes, and AD&D.  We were all 8-9 years old at the time.  We did our best to make it work.  From talking to others, it seems that was pretty standard for younger players at the time.  I may be wrong on that part BUT I still believe OD&D, DD, etc. is MUCH easier to house rule and that's a good thing.

[The Perilous Dreamer]

Sept 12, 2021 14:48:09 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

Nov 5, 2019 3:24:14 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

Yes, it did cause a war and it is still being fought to this day. And those of us who house rule and make our own original world have been losing the hard fought battle for a long time.We are a tiny niche community that is about 1% the size of the OSR community. But they can all show you on the dolly where those nasty house rules and no prep games harmed them.

I've revisiting these DD threads and this really stuck out to me.  I always thought house rules and customizations DEFINE your home game.  It's not difficult to mold something like OD&D, DD, etc. to your needs. If you go messing around and tinkering with a game that has a lot of rules and you do so at your own peril.  You can throw AD&D out of whack pretty easily; not to mention more modern systems.  My buddies and I had the AD&D books in 1980 but were we really playing by the book AD&D?  No. Honestly, we were playing a mish mash of B/X, Holmes, and AD&D.  We were all 8-9 years old at the time.  We did our best to make it work.  From talking to others, it seems that was pretty standard for younger players at the time.  I may be wrong on that part BUT I still believe OD&D, DD, etc. is MUCH easier to house rule and that's a good thing.

You know that I started playing at 19 with other college kids with OD&D so I house ruled the game from the beginning and it is all I knew, make it your own.

I think kids - preteens they call them now, play the game in its pure form (regardless of the rule set) because they have no adult thinking to mess the game up with reliance on rules. But IMO with adults, the rule set matters if they start gaming as an adult.

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

Sept 12, 2021 20:59:46 GMT -5 The Perilous Dreamer said:

Sept 12, 2021 14:48:09 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

I've revisiting these DD threads and this really stuck out to me.  I always thought house rules and customizations DEFINE your home game.  It's not difficult to mold something like OD&D, DD, etc. to your needs. If you go messing around and tinkering with a game that has a lot of rules and you do so at your own peril.  You can throw AD&D out of whack pretty easily; not to mention more modern systems.  My buddies and I had the AD&D books in 1980 but were we really playing by the book AD&D?  No. Honestly, we were playing a mish mash of B/X, Holmes, and AD&D.  We were all 8-9 years old at the time.  We did our best to make it work.  From talking to others, it seems that was pretty standard for younger players at the time.  I may be wrong on that part BUT I still believe OD&D, DD, etc. is MUCH easier to house rule and that's a good thing.

You know that I started playing at 19 with other college kids with OD&D so I house ruled the game from the beginning and it is all I knew, make it your own.

I think kids - preteens they call them now, play the game in its pure form (regardless of the rule set) because they have no adult thinking to mess the game up with reliance on rules. But IMO with adults, the rule set matters if they start gaming as an adult.

I think you nailed it.

[hengest]

Revisiting this thread now 2.5 years later, having interacted a lot on this board recently about sandbox creativity with the other two posters who were on this thread then, I see it in a different way. I see the utter suitability of sandbox for everyone and, at the same time, I realize that something got people to buy all those modules. What was that? How did that occur? How was it made to seem necessary? I guess I'm more interested in gaming than in this question, but I am curious!

[hengest]

Apr 8, 2018 18:25:22 GMT -5 Hexenritter Verlag said:

It is funny that a cursory research on the history of D&D would've given Venger some context that might have given him better insight to DD and OD&D. The whole "reason why TSR came out with updated versions" bit had me chuckling - really? But I don't need to get into that here as most of the members here lived through it & know this all to well. What I can say is that Venger, for someone who writes gaming material cannot fathom the why's for people like us here to want to go back to OD&D or some clone there of - shows a major bias for games with crunch. I like OD&D because of the lack of crunch & the fact I can play it BtB or house-rule or as I see fit. I can add stuff from the supplements or from other games to fit the needs of my campaign.

Everything you say here makes perfect sense and, as you say, there is no need to rehash the whole story on this thread. I do remember when I was a kid and the tables and things in AD&D seemed really fascinating, like the represented some real thing that could be accessed only through the books and only through rolling on those tables. Maybe for some that fascination stays with them, like they think the tables and die-rolling are what you really need to interact with the game world.