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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2018 12:43:40 GMT -5
(...) and on their mass combat book.. Nothing to see here, move on. (genuflecting while making the sign of the cross ...) |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2018 13:43:02 GMT -5
Okay, THAT's funny. "I exalt thee, my son," says the patriarch of St. Cuthbert. *DONK!*
"God exists, by two falls to a submission."
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Post by True Black Raven on Mar 17, 2018 15:24:31 GMT -5
I bought "Crypts & Creatures" because it was 36 pages and cost $5, and because the author said he's tired of huge tomes of rules. I read it last night. It's 3.5E/Pathfinder boiled down. It does what it does well, but I will never run it myself. On the other hand I've been asked to collaborate on their strongholds and castle book, and on their mass combat book. If someone boiled down 3.5E/Pathfinder into 36 pages and @gronanofsimmerya says it does what it does well, that is pretty impressive. Sounds like something worth taking a look at just to see how he did it. Fail Squad Games made a six pack of one page adventures for $15, and they're delightful, not least because at least three of them were things I looked at and thought "give me an hour and I can get two month's gaming off these ideas, and give me a weekend and I can run an entire campaign from this". A pre-made adventure that is that full of ideas is something worth buying, not to run mind you, but to mine for inspiration. That is old school making things that multiply ideas instead of squelch them. What was the name of the item if you remember? |
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Mar 17, 2018 17:02:55 GMT -5
Of course you can. This is the internet and these are the times when absolutely anyone can be offended by absolutely anything. No you can't! How dare you?!?  When better daring deeds are done, dauntless Chet will dare dem. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2018 19:37:51 GMT -5
Fail Squad Games made a six pack of one page adventures for $15, and they're delightful, not least because at least three of them were things I looked at and thought "give me an hour and I can get two month's gaming off these ideas, and give me a weekend and I can run an entire campaign from this". A pre-made adventure that is that full of ideas is something worth buying, not to run mind you, but to mine for inspiration. That is old school making things that multiply ideas instead of squelch them. What was the name of the item if you remember? Now, the "expanding" element is things like one of the microquests involves a ghost. Ghosts can sometimes have very specific ways of being laid to rest. That's what I mean by building off the ideas. |
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Post by Mr Darke on Mar 17, 2018 21:17:08 GMT -5
I duck out for a couple days to play GTA V and XCOM and the discussion gets interesting. I really don't have anything to add except to say that I am glad we are discussing the various ideas brought up. However I will say that I have a couple questions about how things are now compared to what the were years/decades ago. If new play styles would have been discussed in SR and people were encouraged to do their own things then, why such opposition from TSR over Warlock (Dungeons and Beavers) and Arduin (Outside of Copyright issues)? It seems that making things up only went so far.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2018 21:43:19 GMT -5
I duck out for a couple days to play GTA V and XCOM and the discussion gets interesting. That's what you get for missing board meetings!  Well ... recall that Tunnels & Trolls ran into no such issues. Nor did GDW's En Garde or Traveller. I think the issue with the ones you've cited is they were too derivative of D&D. So, they seemed to be saying (to me, at least) make up stuff but don't steal! I think TSR had to jealously guard its IP to keep it all their own. |
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Post by True Black Raven on Mar 18, 2018 10:26:38 GMT -5
Minor quibble, the copyright on the original D&D will expire in 2069, but that is only if Disney is not successful in getting the copyright on Mickey Mouse extended again, which is about as certain as death and taxes. There are two ways of determining the length of a copyright on a work. One of which is author life+ X years. So yeah it could be that long depending how things go down. My reading of the copyright law is that for things published before 1978 (but after other dates that are well before 1974) but in the year 1974, the earliest date they would be public domain would be 2069 based on the fact that it was published with the claim of copyright, the rules are different for that time frame if the copyright notice was not in the publication. But calling us anti-clone and to claim that we are complaining about other people creating stuff is just not true and is not going to fly with me. I get the nuance of the criticism here. I said above I realize there are many attitudes here towards the clones and the OSR in general. But honestly are you telling me that you are NOT lumping in Sine Nominae, Lamentations of the Flame Princess and Frog God Games in with Wizard. I picked those three because the principles behind all three (Kevin Crawford, James Raggi, Bill Webb, and Matt Finch) have put in the time and figured how to take their love of classic D&D and turn into a formal publishing company. Some make, like James Raggi, their living from it. I am not familiar with much that any of these three companies are doing beyond their names. So I would ask you are they pumping out adventure module after adventure module according to the TSR/WotC business model or are they publishing things that help people use their rulesets in DIY fashion. I have no problem with them making a living from it, I hope more people can do that. Adventure modules can vary over a wide range of pointing towards DIY or discouraging it. Do their products give tips and options that lead to DIY or do their products in the main discourage DIY? I don't know the answer to those questions, but who or what they get lumped with depends on how they do business. I don't fault TSR or WotC for trying to make money and be profitable, I do fault them for ripping the heart and soul out of D&D and eating it. |
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Post by robertsconley on Mar 18, 2018 14:21:02 GMT -5
My reading of the copyright law is that for things published before 1978 (but after other dates that are well before 1974) but in the year 1974, the earliest date they would be public domain would be 2069 based on the fact that it was published with the claim of copyright, the rules are different for that time frame if the copyright notice was not in the publication. Sound good to me. My point in bringing it up that if somebody here as an idea using a lot of the OD&D mechanics, they can use the d20 System Reference Document now to share it rather than waiting decades into the future for everything to fall into the public domain. I get the nuance of the criticism here. I said above I realize there are many attitudes here towards the clones and the OSR in general. But honestly are you telling me that you are NOT lumping in Sine Nominae, Lamentations of the Flame Princess and Frog God Games in with Wizard. I picked those three because the principles behind all three (Kevin Crawford, James Raggi, Bill Webb, and Matt Finch) have put in the time and figured how to take their love of classic D&D and turn into a formal publishing company. Some make, like James Raggi, their living from it. I am not familiar with much that any of these three companies are doing beyond their names. So I would ask you are they pumping out adventure module after adventure module according to the TSR/WotC business model or are they publishing things that help people use their rulesets in DIY fashion. I have no problem with them making a living from it, I hope more people can do that. The best I can say is that they each have their own take. None of them can be pigeonholed into a specific category. For example James Raggi of LotFP does pump out of supplement and adventures one after another. But at the same time he actively seek out authors with interesting ideas, pays them a great rate, and incorporates top-notch art. While the works vary, most relate in some way to his interest in weird fantasy horror, and the 16th and 17th century. So it entirely possible that you pick up an adventure published by LotFP and find a lot to criticize about it. If you don't like weird fantasy horror, you won't like many of his works either. However if you look at what he does with his company, his business ethos, etc. He is one of the leaders in getting people to work on stuff and getting it out there. Adventure modules can vary over a wide range of pointing towards DIY or discouraging it. Do their products give tips and options that lead to DIY or do their products in the main discourage DIY? I don't know the answer to those questions, but who or what they get lumped with depends on how they do business. I don't fault TSR or WotC for trying to make money and be profitable, I do fault them for ripping the heart and soul out of D&D and eating it. Look I get where you are coming from. However at the end of the day it is your opinion. What the implication of that? Well when D&D was only published by TSR or Wizards, that meant if your opinion varied from the power that be than you had no recourse. That not true today. The point of my posts here in this thread is to justify saying And having been part of the OSR for over a decade, in my opinion what folks here share won't be limited a dozen downloads or sales. My recommendation to folk interested in sharing their idea is that if you can get 100 people to buy or download your stuff, likely you will find the work you put into be worthwhile. This groups and the other groups interested in older forms of gaming and classic D&D easily tops the 100 mark. While the cost is minimal, the time spent is not. And you have to put yourself out there as well. People like getting things from people they know or more important interact with. For people who publish OSR material their customers base is literally built one conversation at a time. However the result is that on RPGNow alone there are twice as many of OSR releases as official release of D&D material for ALL editions. If you add in what people at Dragonsfoot, here, and other classic D&D communities have done, the number dwarfs what was done back in the day. For several years I seen a lot of creativity here at Murkhill and I would like to see that part of that list for other to learn from and enjoy. Does the above the sound somewhat like propaganda? Sure but in this case it is means toward a specific end, to get what being discussed here to others that will benefit. And to show, that this group isn't without power to effect things. |
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Post by Admin Pete on Mar 18, 2018 20:39:33 GMT -5
This thread should continue without the copyright debate.
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Mar 19, 2018 6:07:00 GMT -5
Agreed. The point has been made that options for personal expression and creativity vis a vis rolegaming is wide open, and inexpensive. Exalts to you, good brother.
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Post by Mr Darke on Mar 21, 2018 11:16:32 GMT -5
Thanks for the split.
I also want to echo an above sentiment by saying I would also like to see things that are not restatements of D&D in any form. Looking over much of the OSR we have endless takes on D&D and certain modules. Honestly, how many times can Keep on the Borderlands be redone? I know someone cloned Lejendary Adventure and I think someone tried to do Rolemaster or MERP at one point. I would love to see more of this than what we have been.
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Post by colinouchou on Apr 17, 2018 9:09:56 GMT -5
I like the clones and I use DD alongside OD&D. But I do have a problem with one particular clone that seems to want everyone to forget OD&D ever existed. That is seriously jumping the shark IMO. I also would like to see original games created that are not imitations of TSR IP, but forgo the OGL and break new ground. The parts that (I think) most of us like about OD&D and flying by the seat of the pants can be part of games that don't resemble OD&D except in spirit.
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Apr 17, 2018 14:55:52 GMT -5
Now that I am happy with OD&D, Delving Deeper & B/X D&D - I am frankly not looking for other RPGs. What I am looking for are interesting house-rules to steal to tweak my preferred games. Like an alternate XP system to complement the standard default system for when the PCs are not delving into dungeons but are getting involved in various and sundry side activities like starting aside business or getting involved in local political shenanigans. New & interesting system-less gonzo/weird settings to use as alternate worlds that PCs can travel to and from via portals. That is what I'd like to see more of. I'd also love to see a themed OSR based around OD&D or B/X D&D that tweaks this a bit - maybe emulating elements of Arduin into a wondrous self-contained Gonzo/weird vibed game that is still OD&D or B/X at its core.
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Post by randyb on Apr 19, 2018 8:54:40 GMT -5
Now that I am happy with OD&D, Delving Deeper & B/X D&D - I am frankly not looking for other RPGs. What I am looking for are interesting house-rules to steal to tweak my preferred games. Like an alternate XP system to complement the standard default system for when the PCs are not delving into dungeons but are getting involved in various and sundry side activities like starting aside business or getting involved in local political shenanigans. New & interesting system-less gonzo/weird settings to use as alternate worlds that PCs can travel to and from via portals. That is what I'd like to see more of. I'd also love to see a themed OSR based around OD&D or B/X D&D that tweaks this a bit - maybe emulating elements of Arduin into a wondrous self-contained Gonzo/weird vibed game that is still OD&D or B/X at its core. For "XP for alternate activities", take a look at Adventurer Conqueror King. It's a B/X clone that emphasizes the Domain game at higher levels and includes rules for XP for those activities - running a domain, magical research, trade expeditions, and "shady" activities. |
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