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Post by makofan on Mar 5, 2018 12:32:45 GMT -5
IN THIS THREAD, WE ARE ASSUMING THE CORSAIRS FIRE FIRST AND ARE A MILITARY SHIP. IN THE OTHER THREAD, WE ARE ASSUMING THE PATROL FIRES FIRST AND THE CORSAIRS ARE A CIVILIAN BUILD I am going to start a series of threads, where I play out the same battle using different Traveller rules sets. It will be a simple 2 pirate ships vs a ship escorting five merchants scenario. I am sure I will make a lot of errors, and some assumptions will have to crop up. This battle will be with Traveller Book 2 - Starships from 1981Scenario: 2 Corsairs vs 1 Escort protecting 5 unarmed free traders Ruleset: Traveller 1981 Book 2 Starships 1 mm=100 km 1 cm = 1000 km Miscatoon planetary diameter = 10 000 km = 10 cm 100 diamaters = 1000 cm = 10 m 1G produces 10 000 km = 10 cm velocity change space diagram will be 1 grid = 1G = 10 000 km Spaceships are standard type T, but with sandcasters in one turret, and two 300-ton corsairs of my original design. Errata from 1983 gives missiles 5G acceleration. All crew members are assumed to have skill-1 at their position. Free traders are 1G and will flee towards the planet. Starship detection is 150 cm or 15 grids, military is 600 cm CorsairsType C Corsair 300 Tons J-Drive F (J3) M-Drive F (3G) Power Plant F 120 tons fuel slow boat 35 tons cargo 1 triple laser turret (pulse) 1 triple laser turret (beam) 1 triple missile turret Model /3 (5/9) 1-Target, 1-Return Fire, 1-Launch, 1-Predict 1, 1-Gunner Interact, 3-ECM, 1-Navigate, 1-Auto/Evade, 2-Anti-Missile, 1-Jump-1, 2-Jump-2, 3-Jump-3, 1-Library Corsair 1: Jack SparrowIn computer: Target(1), Auto/Evade(1), Gunner Interact (1), Launch (1), Return Fire (1) In storage: ECM (3), Anti-Missile (2), Predict (1), Jump-3(3) Corsair 2: BarbossaIn computer: Target(1), Auto/Evade(1), Gunner Interact (1), Launch (1), Return Fire (1) In storage: ECM (3), Anti-Missile (2), Predict (1), Jump-3(3) EscortType T Patrol Cruiser 400 tons J-Drive F (J3) M-Drive H (4G) Power Plant H 160 tons fuel 2 triple laser turrets (pulse) 1 triple missile turret 1 triple sandcaster turret Model /3 (5/9) 1-Target, 1-Return Fire, 1-Launch, 1-Predict 1, 1-Gunner Interact, 1-Navigate, 1-Auto/Evade, 2-Anti-Missile, 1-Jump-1, 2-Jump-2, 3-Jump-3, 1-Library Escort: Norrington In computer: Target(1), Auto/Evade(1), Predict (1), Launch (1), Return Fire (1) In storage: Anti-Missile (2), Predict (1), Jump-3(3), Navigate (1), Library (1) SEQUENCE OF PLAY Intruder Player Turn— A. Intruder Movement. The intruder moves his ships using the movement, gravity, and other applicable rules. Ordnance (missiles and sand) which he has launched in previous game turns is moved at the same time. B. Intruder Laser Fire. The intruder may fire his ships' laser weaponry at enemy targets, subject to the combat, computer, and other applicable rules. Only laser weaponry may fire in this phase. C. Native Laser Return Fire. The native may return fire with his laser weaponry at enemy ships which have fired on him, provided his return fire computer program is running during this phase, and in accordance with the computer program and combat rules. Anti-missile fire may be performed in this phase if the appropriate computer program is running. D. Intruder Ordnance Launch. The intruder may launch ordnance (missiles and/or sand) at enemy targets or on specific missions, subject to the applicable rules. Ordnance which has contacted enemy ships explodes in this phase. Lifeboats and ship's vehicles are launched in this phase. E. Intruder Computer Reprogramming. The intruder may remove computer programs from his on-board computer, and input other programs in anticipation of their use in later turns. Native Player Turn— A. Native Movement. The native moves his ships using the movement, gravity, and other applicable rules. Ordnance (missiles and sand) which he has launched in previous game turns is moved at the same time. B. Native Laser Fire. The native may fire his ships' laser weaponry at enemy targets, subject to the combat, computer, and other applicable rules. Only laser weaponry may fire in this phase. C. Intruder Laser Return Fire. The intruder may return fire with his laser weaponry at enemy ships which have fired on him, provided his return fire computer program is running during this phase, and in accordance with the computer program and combat rules. Anti-missile fire may be performed in this phase if the appropriate computer program is running. D. Native Ordnance Launch. The native may launch ordnance (missiles and/or sand) at enemy targets or on specific missions, subject to the applicable rules. Ordnance which has contacted enemy ships explodes in this phase. Lifeboats and ship's vehicles are launched in this phase. E. Native Computer Reprogramming. The native may remove computer programs from his on-board computer, and input other programs in anticipation of their use in later turns. Here is the opening setup
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Post by makofan on Mar 5, 2018 13:00:32 GMT -5
My intent is to make one post per day, and I welcome any comments
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2018 13:38:26 GMT -5
What a great idea! Have an exalt!
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Mar 5, 2018 15:31:57 GMT -5
Great topic and I look forward to following along as you go. I will have to admit that I read the Scenario and the first thought I had was "If there are pirates, why would a free trader ever be unarmed?"
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Post by makofan on Mar 5, 2018 15:48:32 GMT -5
Great topic and I look forward to following along as you go. I will have to admit that I read the Scenario and the first thought I had was "If there are pirates, why would a free trader ever be unarmed?" Look at the computer rules - they wouldn't normally be able to acquire a target and shoot!
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dragondaddy
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Currently Running/Playing 0D&D, 5e D&D, Classic Traveller
Posts: 120
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Post by dragondaddy on Mar 5, 2018 16:40:18 GMT -5
***BATTLE STATIONS*** ***BATTLE STATIONS*** ***BATTLE STATIONS*** ***THIS IS NOT A DRILL.*** ***PREPARE FOR IMMEDIATE ATMOSPHERIC DECOMPRESSION*** ***BATTLE STATIONS*** ***BATTLE STATIONS*** ***BATTLE STATIONS*** ***ATMOSPHERIC PURGE in 20 ...19 ...18 ...17 ...16 ...15***
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dragondaddy
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Currently Running/Playing 0D&D, 5e D&D, Classic Traveller
Posts: 120
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Post by dragondaddy on Mar 6, 2018 1:15:54 GMT -5
There is also a 30 Ton Ship's Boat aboard the Norrington. Is that armed?
Lieutenant Commander Chronio Hite Captain/Pilot of the Norrington
STR - 8 DEX - 5 END - 6 INT - 7 EDU - B SOC - 9
Service: Navy Homeworld: Desert World Mid-Tech, Age: 38
Terms 5 Commission 1 Promotion 2
Skills ======== Gunnery - 1 Vacc-Suit - 1 Computer - 2 Medical – 4 (Doctor) Pilot - 1 (Starships) ========
Mustering Out - Retirement Pay: 4,000 cr / yr 20,000 Cr 2x Travellers Aid Society memberships +4 EDU
============================================================================
Lieutenant Jessa Andell (f) Chief Navigator of the Norrington
STR - 6 DEX - A END - 7 INT - 6 EDU - 9 SOC - A
Service: Navy Homeworld: Ag-World, Mid Tech Age: 38
Terms - 5 Commission - 1 Promotion - 1
Skills ======== Gunnery - 1 J-O-T - 1 Engineering – 1 Pilot – 3 Admin – 1 Medical - 1 ========
Mustering Out - 4,000 cr retirement pay, annually 15,000 cr Blade +2 High Passage Tickets
=====================================================
Roby Rosson Chief Engineer of the Norrington
STR - 6 DEX - 4 END - 5 INT - 8 EDU - 8 SOC - 8
Service: Navy Homeworld: Desert World, Medium Tech Age: 38
Terms - 5 Commission - 0 Promotion - 0
Skills Gunnery - 1 Engineering - 3 J-O-T - 1 Vacc Suit - 1
Mustering Out - 4,000 Cr/year retirement 60,000 Cr Traveller Aid Society +4 Edu
=========================================================================
Lipaul Powats (m), Engineering Mate 4B4489, Engineering – 1 Vacc Suit - 1 Walton Pere (m), Engineering Mate 7ABA47, Engineering – 1 Vacc Suit - 1
=========================================================================
Major Damian Lynch Norrington Ships Medic
STR - 9 DEX - A END - 7 INT - 7 EDU - 9 SOC - 8
Service: Army Homeworld: Thrudheim C654878-6 Age: 38
Terms - 5 Commission - 1 Promotion - 2
Skills Brawling - 2 Gambling - 2 Gun Cbt -1 Pistol SMG - 1 Medical - 1
Mustering Out Benefits 4,000 Cr per year retirement benefit 60,000 Cr Pistol x2 3x9 ammo clips SMG x1 3x30 ammo clips High Passage =====================================================
Lieutenant Harria Jahani (f) Norrington Marine Commander
STR - 8 DEX - A END - A INT - 5 EDU - A SOC - 3
Service: Marines Homeworld: T'Para B200610-8, Small Corporate Vacuum Frontier World, NI Age: 38
Terms - 5 Commission - 1 Promotion - 0
Skills Gun Cbt Autorifle - 1 Wheeled Vehicle - 1 Vacc Suit – 1 Blade Cbt Broadsword – 1 Medical - 2 Tactics - 1
Mustering Out Benefits 4,000 Cr per year Retirement 27,000 Cr Broadsword Autorifle 6x30 clips 4 fragmentation grenades 4 smoke grenades Armored Car Traveller’s Aide Society +1 Edu
==================================================== Marines Knightess Pamy Jamurph (f) 88B87A Auto Rifle – 1, HMG – 1, Blade – 2, Fwd Obs – 1, Wheeled Vehicle - 1, Vacc Suit – 1, Autorifle, Grenades x6. 6X30 ammo clips, Blade. Sargeant Major (m) Casper Tomak 9976A7 Auto Rifle – 1, HMG – 1, Blade – 1 Broadsword – 2, Tracked Vehicle – 1, Vacc Suit – 1, Autorifle, Grenades x4, 6X30 ammo clips, Blade.
Staff Sargeant (m) Jakobe Tavella 79B774 Rifle – 1, HMG – 1, Blade – 1, Leader – 1, Computer – 1 .50 Cal Sniper Rifle, Bi-pod, x8 Telecopic Day/Night Sight. 120 Rounds ammo, Blade.
Sargeant (m) Stery Pezal 858AA6 Auto Rifle – 1, HMG – 1, Blade – 2, Autorifle, Grenades x6, 6X30 ammo clips, Blade.
Corporal (m) Rise Rogan C5A287 Auto Rifle – 1, HMG – 1, Blade – 1, Wheeled Vehicle – 1, Vacc Suit – 1, Autorifle, Smoke Grenades x6, Frag Grenades x2, 6X30 ammo clips, Blade.
Corporal (m) Wardy Ricia 9869A6 Auto Rifle – 1, HMG – 1, Blade – 1, Broadsword – 1, Autorifle, Grenades x2, 6X30 ammo clips, Blade.
Private (m) Petim Coly 465996 Auto Rifle – 1, HMG – 1, Blade – 1, Autorifle, 6X30 ammo clips, Blade.
Gunners Lieutenant Violet Baral (f) C96778 Gunnery – 1, Blade Cbt – 1, Ship’s Boat – 1, Vacc Suit – 2, Fwd Obs – 1, Engineering – 1, Blade.
Sargeant Bevirg Rownett (f) 597A84 Blade – 1, Ship’s Boat – 2, Gunnery – 1, Vacc Suit – 1, Blade.
Private Mely Riffost (f) 8349B6 Gunnery – 1, Ship’s Boat – 1, Blade Cbt – 1, Blade.
Private Adank Greenes (m) 8A23BB Gunnery – 1, Blade Cbt – 1, Gun Cbt Pistol – 1, Blade, Auto Pistol. 6X9 ammo clips.
...5 ...4 ...3 ...2 ...1 ***ATMOSPHERIC PURGING INITIATED ***
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Post by makofan on Mar 6, 2018 8:13:30 GMT -5
Sure: we'll give it a pulse laser and a sandcaster, as per page 18
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Post by makofan on Mar 6, 2018 8:19:48 GMT -5
By the way, the first elephant in the room rears its head, about hyperspace - what speed are you travelling when you drop out of hyperspace? For this example, I have started everybody at rest, but your choices are at least the following:
Enter at rest (0G, 0V) Enter at 1G, 1V XG, XV where X is your Maneuver XG, YV where X is your Maneuver and Y the speed you were travelling when you entered hyperspace
The second elephant is the time scale: one turn is more than 15 minutes long, but you can only fire once, shoot one missile, do one reload? I think it would have been better to say in an arbitrary time unit X, you can do 1 thing. Perhaps 100 seconds rather than 1000 seconds would have been a better time scale.
Nevertheless, neither of these things will mess up our play test. I should get the first turn up at noon today
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Post by makofan on Mar 6, 2018 14:56:28 GMT -5
Also, it says you can do damage control, but does not say what phase. I am going to say damage control happens in your computer re-programming phase
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Post by makofan on Mar 6, 2018 15:22:56 GMT -5
Corsairs "Jack Sparrow" 300 Tons J-Drive F (J3) M-Drive F (3G) Power Plant F 120 tons fuel slow boat 35 tons cargo 1 triple laser turret (pulse) 1 triple laser turret (beam) 1 triple missile turret Model /3 (5/9) 1-Target, 1-Return Fire, 1-Launch, 1-Predict 1, 1-Gunner Interact, 3-ECM, 1-Navigate, 1-Auto/Evade, 2-Anti-Missile, 1-Jump-1, 2-Jump-2, 3-Jump-3, 1-Library Corsairs "Barbossa" 300 Tons J-Drive F (J3) M-Drive F (3G) Power Plant F 120 tons fuel slow boat 35 tons cargo 1 triple laser turret (pulse) 1 triple laser turret (beam) 1 triple missile turret Model /3 (5/9) 1-Target, 1-Return Fire, 1-Launch, 1-Predict 1, 1-Gunner Interact, 3-ECM, 1-Navigate, 1-Auto/Evade, 2-Anti-Missile, 1-Jump-1, 2-Jump-2, 3-Jump-3, 1-Library Escort "Norrington" 400 tons J-Drive F E (J2) damagedM-Drive H (4G) Power Plant H
160 tons fuel 2 1 triple laser turrets (pulse) damaged1 0 triple missile turret damaged1 triple sandcaster turret Model /3 (5/9) 1-Target, 1-Return Fire, 1-Launch, 1-Predict 1, 1-Gunner Interact, 1-Navigate, 1-Auto/Evade, 2-Anti-Missile, 1-Jump-1, 2-Jump-2, 3-Jump-3, 1-Library Corsair 1: "Jack Sparrow" In computer: Target(1), Auto/Evade(1), Gunner Interact (1), Launch (1), Return Fire (1) In storage: ECM (3), Anti-Missile (2), Predict (1), Jump-3(3) Corsair 2: "Barbossa" In computer: Target(1), Auto/Evade(1), Gunner Interact (1), Launch (1), Return Fire (1) In storage: ECM (3), Anti-Missile (2), Predict (1), Jump-3(3) Escort: "Norrington" In computer: Target(1), Auto/Evade(1), Predict (1), Launch (1), Return Fire (1) In storage: Anti-Missile (2), Predict (1), Jump-3(3), Navigate (1), Library (1) TURN ONE Intruder Move: Corsairs apply 3G diagonally Intruder Laser Fire:Jack Sparrow fires triple laser pulse and triple laser beam at Norrington; needs 8+ to hit Pulse DMs: Gunner +1, Pulse -1, Auto/Evade -2, Final: -2 Rolls are 4-2=2, 2-2=0, and 3-2=1, all miss Beam DMs: Gunner +1, Auto/Evade -2, Final: -1 Rolls are 9-1=8, 7-1=6, and 8-1=7, one hitLocation is <2d6>= 6 Hull; decompression, no other effects Barbossa fires triple laser pulse and triple laser beam at Norrington; needs 8+ to hit Pulse DMs: Gunner +1, Pulse -1, Auto/Evade -2, Final: -2 Rolls are 8-2=6, 12-2=10, and 5-2=3, one hit for 2 damage rollsLocation is <2d6>= 4 Jump; Norrington down to J-Drive ELocation is <2d6>= 11 Turret; randomly roll <1d4>=2, pulse triple laser out of actionBeam DMs: Gunner +1, Auto/Evade -2, Final: -1 Rolls are 9-1=8, 6-1=5, and 10-1=9, two hitsLocation is <2d6>= 7 Hull no further effectLocation is <2d6>= 11 Turret; randomly roll <1d4>=3, triple missile turret out of actionNative Laser Return Fire:Norrington returns fire on the Jack Sparrow with its remaining triple laser pulse turret; needs 8+ to hit Pulse DMs: Predict-1 +1, Pulse -1, Auto/Evade -2, Final: -2 Rolls are 3-2=1, 4-2=2, and 6-2=4, all miss Intruder Ordnance LaunchJack Sparrow launches 3 missiles at NorringtonBarbossa launches 3 missiles at NorringtonIntruder Computer Reprogramming[/i] No change for either ship
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Post by makofan on Mar 6, 2018 15:23:48 GMT -5
I'll let dragondaddy look at the carnage and see if he wants to change any orders
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dragondaddy
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Posts: 120
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Post by dragondaddy on Mar 6, 2018 21:53:30 GMT -5
I can see I'm going to have to teach you how to play Traveller. So let's just take it from the top, shall we?...
I'm the Intruder as I just jumped into system, so I should be the first moving as well as initiating any fire. Before you fire at anything at all, you have to first detect it, and then "lock" the target with you sensor array...
Standard detection range for military vessels (like my patrol cruiser is 600,000 km or 6,000 mm or about 60g's as you are measuring G's in the diagram above. That is presuming 1g = 100mm like it says on page 26 of book 2.
Eyeballing the initial contact graphic puts us at about 2500mm or 250,000 km or about "25 G's" apart, using the scale that you setup. Ordinary or commercial starships can detect other ships out to a range of about one-half light second, about 1,500 mm or 150,000 km or 15g's or so which means none of my merchant vessels can see your Corsairs, and your Corsairs can't even detect my Patrol Cruiser at the range depicted in the first diagram. The patrol cruiser has a detection range of 600,000 km, or 6000mm or 60g's or so, as you are measuring them.
It gets better... Ships which are maintaining complete silence cannot be detected at distances greater than 1/2 detection range. Now that would be 750mm or 75,000 Km or about 7.5g's as you are measuring g's in the first diagram above... That means, in order for you to detect me at 150,000 km, I have to broadcast on an open frequency (which I have not done) or fire on you first, Which I also have not done.... ...yet.
Presuming that your grubby little pirates managed to somehow steal or capture a military or police corsair, which is highly unlikely... you know ships that have the improved military or police sensors and advanced weaponry usually also have self-destructs built-in,... then my little fleet is just inside your detection range, and we could proceed with combat as once you have detected a ship, it can be tracked by anyone up to 9000mm or 900,000 km, or 90g's or so...
Just a quick side note here, ships in orbit around a world, and also maintaining complete silence cannot be detected at ranges greater than 1/8 detection range, which would be 20,000 km or 2 G's or so for regular ships, and 80,000 Km or 8g's or so for military and police vessels... this is why most actual fights occur in high and low orbit around planets. Detecting quiet sneaky spacecraft is reaaally hard, and the best place to catch them, is right when they are taking off and landing, when they are broadcasting to and from ground flight control stations.
Let us now proceed then presuming that I opened fire as I declared when we began, because with my military sensors, I detected you as soon as I jumped in. When we arrived the merchant fleet as well as the patrol escort was moving steadily at 1g, (but not accelerating at 1g) in formation, on a vector directly towards the planet. As Intruder, My patrol Cruiser accelerated slightly and positioned itself, in between the merchants and the pirate vessels, to deliberately shield the merchants with the ship itself, and the merchant fleet simply continued towards the planet. My first roll of ten was a clear hit on the Jack Sparrow, even taking into account auto evade, because gunners get to add their gunnery rating +1 (in this case) meaning the first roll is 10 (+1 Gunner) (-2 Auto-evade) which is a nine, a hit, with three lasers... so... Jack Sparrow takes three hits with the following three locations being hit ... 7,3,7 Hull, maneuver drive, hull. The second laser turret misses with a 6+1-2 ending my laser fire for this first turn. Jack Sparrow most certainly detected the Patrol Cruiser (But very likely not the remainder of the merchant fleet) because the Patrol Cruiser fired and hit Jack Sparrow. If the Jack Sparrow is not a military vessel but a commercial vessel and did not detect the Norrington, then explosive decompression occurred in the hull, and in the maneuver drive room which requires every character aboard the ship to make a dexterity throw to get into their vacc suit, or they die...
Barbossa may also return fire this turn provided that Jack Sparrow breaks radio silence to inform the Barbossa that it has been attacked, as one can only return fire on another ship, if it has fired on you, otherwise, one still has to detect the still silent ship in order to fire on it! Also if we were roleplaying this, as GM, I'd ask the pirate player to make a sensor sweep roll using whatever character onboard ship is in charge of the sensors i.e. RADAR/LADAR/SONAR/PHOTONIC ARRAY and would allow the pirate player to use either computer or electronic skill as a bonus on the detection roll, in an opposed roll where the Patrol Cruiser Navigator or Pilot is using electronics or computer skills in order to foil detection. When playing in a group, this gives more than one person on board the ship a job to do in combat, aside from the pilot/gunners.
It is now NATIVE (that's you) LASER RETURN FIRE phase of the INTRUDER PLAYER TURN (that's me), so you may return fire. Remember you get one attack roll for each turret that you have., If you have a single turret, it score one hit on a success, a dual turret, two hits, and a triple turret three hits. Remember also that beam lasers get +1 to hit and score normal damage, and pulse lasers have no bonus, but always do 1 extra damage roll for each laser if they hit.
Current Range approximately 260,000 Km...
...proceed...
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Post by makofan on Mar 6, 2018 22:54:23 GMT -5
I would love to have some experienced Traveller refs comment here
BTW the corsairs are military built in terms of sensors
I thought it was -1 for pulse and no change for beam, not no change for pulse and +1 for beam
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dragondaddy
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Post by dragondaddy on Mar 7, 2018 7:07:13 GMT -5
I enjoy these play-throughs and practice games as they are extremely useful for people to understand the game. It actually took me quite awhile to learn how to play Traveller, and I didn't really properly understand orbital mechanics until about 2005 or so, when I was over on a NASA forum discussing the Columbia disaster and had gotten into a side discussion with some NASA scientists there about disposing of nuclear waste. My idea had been to just launch the radioactive waste, and then let the rocket collide with the Sun. In practice, this is an extremely difficult maneuver, because the planets are already in motion traveling around the sun in a elliptical orbit. Even though the sun is a fixed distance more or less 149.6 million Km from earth, it's position is not fixed relative to the Earth, and a single burn to intersect the path of the sun will not produce that desired intersection path.
An elliptical orbit requires a series of deceleration burns to allow the rocket a chance to slow down and be "captured" in the suns gravity well. As the rocket gets closer to the sun, the gravity increases the pull on the rocket, requiring additional correction deceleration burns to stay on target. Turns out, it is too expensive, ...in rocket fuel, to crash a rocket into the sun. It is much, much easier, and less expensive to launch the rocket so that it leaves the solar system forever and flies off into the unknown of deep space.
For a really good quick way to learn the ins and outs of space combat, I would recommend GDW's game Mayday, which outlines in detail how to play out vector based movement in Zero-G that includes rules for Gravity Wells that zone of "pull" created by planets, moons, and asteroids.. While Mayday only depicts space combat in 2d, understand how the movement works with that, and it is then easy to visualize in 3d. Just a quick side note here, the Naval Rules High Guard is used to describe the best position for a fighting ship to engage other space craft. In reality, the High Guard orbit is actually the lowest orbit, closest to the surface of a planet. The closer you are to a planet, the faster you will be traveling around that planet, ...therefore, you'll get the best chance to intercept and engage any other spacecraft, either coming or going, that is anywhere near the planet.
If you are in orbit, you consume zero fuel, and continue to move at a fixed velocity (1g in Traveller terms) around the planet. Now you would just be normally moving in a straight line, but the gravity of the planet is continuously altering your course and pulling you towards the planet. While you are experiencing 1g of pull because of the planet, your spacecraft may be traveling much, much faster, or at a much higher velocity than you would first imagine. Also, acceleration burns tend to be hard on the occupants of a spacecraft. Most people can stand 3Gs for short amounts of time up to and less than an hour, however anything more than 6g's for more than a minute or so, tends to produce unconsciousness leading to death, as all the blood in your head and body is pushed away from the direction of acceleration, and parts of your body are suddenly being oxygen starved. Acceleration couches, specialized drugs, and artificial blood pumps can diminish these effects of continuous high-g acceleration, but never completely remove a chance of mishap
Concerning beam versus pulse lasers. My first edition Traveller book says only that Pulse lasers fire short bursts of energy at targets and are more effective at inflicting damage than beam lasers, and that beam lasers are more effective in achieving hits that are pulse lasers. Since the required "to-hit" roll is 8+ it stands to reason that the more effective "beam" laser would require a 7+ to hit.
Looking at the 1982 Traveller 2nd edition hardback, the rules don't specifically state pulse lasers get a -1 to hit. I remember hearing about that, however can't find the -1 rule on pulse lasers in my books at the moment, so a citation would be useful. Now High Guard specifically says Beam lasers require an 8+ to hit, so I would presume the Pulse lasers get a -1 making a roll of 9+ necessary. In any event I'll be seeing Marc Saturday though so long as he shows up at GaryCon, ...so I'll just ask him.
Also, in my first phase, I forgot to Double Fire. ...I should totally be doing that, even though doing so creates a hazard of damaging the Powerplant due to powergrid overload.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2018 11:16:39 GMT -5
I enjoy these play-throughs and practice games as they are extremely useful for people to understand the game. I'm enjoying reading the play-by-play between you and Makofan, as well your running commentary. Keep it up!
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Post by makofan on Mar 7, 2018 11:59:30 GMT -5
Just checking in at lunch time! I hope to go through your post in detail this evening. This is the VERY reason I started this thread - so we could all learn. I also intend to run this in Mayday, but we are getting ahead of ourselves
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Post by raikenclw on Mar 7, 2018 20:39:21 GMT -5
. . . protecting 5 unarmed free traders Poor bastards, they brought knives to a gunfight . . .
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Post by coffee on Mar 8, 2018 9:11:20 GMT -5
Concerning beam versus pulse lasers. My first edition Traveller book says only that Pulse lasers fire short bursts of energy at targets and are more effective at inflicting damage than beam lasers, and that beam lasers are more effective in achieving hits that are pulse lasers. Since the required "to-hit" roll is 8+ it stands to reason that the more effective "beam" laser would require a 7+ to hit. Close. Traveller Book 2 (1977) gives a Pulse Laser a -1 to hit. (Laser Fire DMs table, p. 30)
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Post by makofan on Mar 8, 2018 9:20:06 GMT -5
Right. Page 8 of the ConsolidatedCTErrata regarding 1981 Book 2 has the same entry as coffee just quoted (1981 has PAGES of Errata, whereas 1977 had hardly any)
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Post by makofan on Mar 8, 2018 15:04:28 GMT -5
Let's start with the critical one
From Book 2, page 26, this is the entirety it has to say on the matter
These terms chosen are just as arbitrary as attacker/defender. After all, the pirates are intruding and the merchants are regular travellers of this route, and thus more like the natives.
Beyond this, your reasoning implies that a fleet sitting in ambush, waiting for some ships they know will show up, always goes second after a ship just jumping into the system, which has no clue what is waiting for it. This makes no sense to me
In later rulesets, there are some initiative rules. I could even see start the battle by rolling d6 for initiative, DM +1 if military vessel, etc. Or both ships could check sensors (like you suggested later in the post) and if one side detects and the other doesn't they obviously go first
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Post by creativehum on Mar 11, 2018 10:43:57 GMT -5
INITIATIVEFor initiative I think it's important to remember that the system was built as part of RPG play (as opposed to a board game or war game). That is, there are situations, PCs, and NPCs, and until someone decides to attack there is no one "goes first" and there is no Intruder or Native. Characters can negotiate, threaten each other, stall as they're getting computer programs set up, and so on. The game doesn't (and can't) decide which "side" will be attacking first, since that has to be discovered in play. For the purposes of this exercise (which is a great exercise, and thank you for doing it) one side will have to arbitrarily be chosen. 1/8th Sensor Range Around Worlds Dragondaddy, I'm not finding that anywhere in the rules or the errata. I'm not saying it isn't there. Can you point me to that? PULSE LASERSThe 1977 edition of Traveller Book 2, The Traveller Book, and Starter Traveller all have the DM -1 for Pulse Lasers. The 1981 edition of Book 2 does not have the DM -1 for Pulse Lasers -- but the Errata for the 1981 edition correct this with a DM -1 for Pulse Lasers for that edition as well. (Dragondaddy, you will find the DM -1 for Pulse Lasers in The Traveller Book in the Attacker's DMs Table on p. 74.) MILITARY SENSORSThe Type C is certainly a quasi-military vessel. It seems to me that if the Referee says it can have military sensors it has them. (And one wouldn't need to steal them in a typical RPG campaign. It might take guile, effort, and a lot of cash... but certainly a goal could be to upgrade any ship's sensors to military grade -- even if done illegally.) DAMAGE CONTROLMy take on when Damage Control is performed is that the roll can be made at any time during a game turn. (A "game turn" we should remember encompasses the two "player turns," which encompass all the phases within both player turns). Thus, there is a lot of back and forth of firing and maneuvering during a game turn. As the rules note: What I like about leaving it up to the player(s) to decide when to make the roll is that you have to decide, as things are falling apart in a given turn, whether to make the repair now (to keep a given piece of equipment that you know you want to use now effective), or wait a bit to see if something worse happens in the turn that you'll need that repair roll for. By leaving it up to the player(s) when to use the Damage Control roll becomes a choice and a piece of resource to use during the battle. If you delay rolling the Damage Control roll is never lost -- you can simply make it at the end of the turn. But if you make it early, it won't be there to help you during the back and forth of the combat. THE 1977 DAMAGE TABLEMakofan, I notice you started with the 1981 rules. The rules are very similar to the 1977 edition -- and are essentially cleaned up with better scales to work from, as far as i'm concerned. But there is one way the 1977 Book 2 rules are better in my opinion: The Hit Location Table: 1977 HIT LOCATION TABLE
Dice | Starship | Smal Craft | 2 | Power Plant | Drive | 3 | Manuever | Drive
| 4 | Jump | Drive | 5 | Computer | Drive | 6 | Hull | Drive | 7 | Hull | Cabin | 8 | Hold | Cabin | 9 | Fuel | Cabin | 10 | Turret | Weaponry | 11 | Turret | Weaponry | 12 | Turret | Weaponry |
You will notice there are no notations for Critical Hits. And, in fact, there is no Critical Hit table in the 1977 rules. This means a component can't be destroyed with one shot, nor can the ship get an EXPLODE result and be destroyed with one shot. I prefer this method if the focus of play is as an RPG. First, I don't want the Players/PCs losing their ship all in some random shot, especially if they've put a lot of money into upgrades. Which leads to the second point: Damage to the components means having to spend money on repairs... which leads to needing money... which leads to adventure. If we're playing an RPG scenario, I don't want a Smash 'Em Derby, I want the Players wondering how far to press their luck in a fight, whether to surrender, and so on, as they risk losing capability and needing to repair their ship if the combat continues. The Critical Hit Table makes a lot of sense as a miniature combat game. And I can see how GDW was moving the game line closer to that sensibility over time. But as an RPG tool, I find the damage results found in the 1977 edition closer to what I'd want. (Personal taste, of course.) I bring this up because, of course, the way a combat plays out will be very different! RANGES & SCALEA personal request: As the example proceeds, if one unit of measurement (mm, km, whatever) could be chosen and used exclusively, that would be great. My eyeballs are currently swimming in numbers when I try to track the ranges in the posts above... and there's really no need to list every scale. If one scale is chosen we can track all the relative ranges at a glance. Thanks! And makofan, thanks for doing this!
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Post by makofan on Mar 12, 2018 10:38:19 GMT -5
I was thinking of some of dragondaddy 's points, and I came to a bit of a revelation. dragondaddy is playing the game, I am creating a dry simulation to test the rules. In my experience, in most roleplaying games, once you have to roll dice, you are losing. You have gone from a sure thing to a chancy thing. So a Traveller character or party is thinking: " There may be pirates, how do I scheme to avoid them?" Radio silence to reduce chance of being found, a military escort that can detect pirates before pirates detect them, a ship that can fight off pirates while they run, deploying a ship's boat as an auxiliary firing platform... whatever they can think of. I presented the scenario where it is already too late and you are taking damage. I can see why dragondaddy objected. Who would let themselves get into that sort of mess in the first place?? The combat table is designed to lose parts of your ship before you manage to escape - it is player focused, not military-focused. Let me think a bit more about how I want to proceed And those are good points about Traveller '77. I am going to have to but that FFE CD sooner or later
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dragondaddy
Traveler
Currently Running/Playing 0D&D, 5e D&D, Classic Traveller
Posts: 120
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Post by dragondaddy on Mar 14, 2018 1:29:22 GMT -5
Did get the chance to talk to Marc last weekend, the beam lasers were always 8+ to hit, even with the original rules, so pulse lasers were 9+. Also, the GaryCon X Highlights I have posted so far... more to come in the next few days! tamerthya.blog/2018/03/14/garycon-x-highlights/
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Post by makofan on Mar 14, 2018 11:46:06 GMT -5
One thing I need to raise - the corsairs would fire first. This is because the naval ship may believe these two strange ships could be hostile, but cannot be certain - they could be innocent. So they would beat to quarters, and have their software loaded, but not fire until fired upon
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Post by raikenclw on Mar 14, 2018 22:06:39 GMT -5
One thing I need to raise - the corsairs would fire first. This is because the naval ship may believe these two strange ships could be hostile, but cannot be certain - they could be innocent. So they would beat to quarters, and have their software loaded, but not fire until fired upon That depends on the rules of engagement the naval vessel is currently operating under. There could easily be situations where said rules read: "If bogies remain unresponsive after a suitable interval, commanders may open fire at their discretion."
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Post by creativehum on Mar 15, 2018 0:18:25 GMT -5
Ultimately, for the sake of the exercise, an arbitrary beginning needs to be established, and goals for either side need to be established. The point of Classic Traveller starship combat, especially with the damage rules from '77, wasn't to destroy the opposing ship/fleet*... it was to get the opposing ship/fleet to: - Surrender and let opposing side board
- Give up the cargo/passenger/McGuffin/whatever to the opposing side
- Drive off the opposing side
- Get the opposing side to allow safe passage to a spaceport/destination without further conflict
- and so on
These kinds of strategic decisions are built on what matters to the crew/characters, alongside the risk management of engaging in a fight/pressing the assault. Usually the context of a situation is established through of RPG play -- sometimes taking hours, if not many sessions, to accumulate and inform a given fight. Examples: - Is the PCs' ship already damaged?
- How invested are the PCs in the cargo they are carrying? (If they don't deliver it, are there serious consequences? Or is losing the cargo to pirates (for example) a write-off they can afford to make?)
- Do they really, really hate the pirates that are asking to board them (again)?
- Is the NPC the PCs are transporting promising them a massive reward if she gets safely to her home world?
- And so on...
Since we don't have those pre-established contexts/details for this fight, someone will have to create them arbitrarily and nail them down if the fight is to occur. * Destroying the other side certainly is a possibility -- and if the circumstances that have led up to the fight offer this as a motivated goal it would make perfect sense for one side or the other to commit to such action. My point such a goal isn't the default. Pirates, for example, are much better off developing a reputation for boarding for cargo but not harming passengers and crew rather than killing everyone off once on board. If your reputation is that you'll kill everyone, the defending ship will, of course, fight tooth and nail to keep you away -- having nothing else to lose.
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Post by makofan on Mar 15, 2018 10:01:28 GMT -5
I agree with most of the points raised on this board. I want to wait for dragondaddy to weigh in again, then I may reframe the situation ands start again
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Post by ffilz on Mar 15, 2018 15:34:02 GMT -5
Following this with interest.
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dragondaddy
Traveler
Currently Running/Playing 0D&D, 5e D&D, Classic Traveller
Posts: 120
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Post by dragondaddy on Mar 15, 2018 21:00:59 GMT -5
Back... As the Patrol Cruiser commander Norrington, jumping randomly into a new system and finding two Corsairs that are moving on an intercept course with my five unarmed escorts, is good enough reason to open fire without hesitation. 1) If the Corsairs were motionless, and non-threatening, there would be no reason to fire oe even go to battlestations, ...however... 2) Neither of the Corsairs hailed the Merchants, or the Patrol Cruiser. 3) Both Corsairs immediately moved to intercept, then fired, establishing the basic parameters for this encounter. Anyone moves aggressively, or fires on the Patrol Cruiser, or the Merchants, or all three, and the Patrol Cruiser is at Battle Stations, Weapons Hot & Free! Space is a very unforgiving and cold place of death for any pilot, and/or crew that hesitates in an uncertain situation.Even with the rewind, where there is a possibility that the Corsairs may have initiative, doesn't mean they would have wrecked the patrol Cruiser in the first round of fire because the firing procedure was incorrect, with the firing of each laser separately, instead of as a turret. Missiles fired from a single turret, however, take separate and diverse courses courses toward the target, ...and should be rolled to hit individually. This brings me to what creativehum brought up about the hit location tables. I was going to say something about this as well, however Makofan stated clearly that the second edition 81' book 2 rules set (not High Guard, which was released by this time) would be used, which means the players get to call specifically targeted shots, instead of using the random hit determination tables. Wait... My 2nd edition 81 rules has the random hit location table on page 30. So there should be no called shots. For the record, I also personally prefer the original hit determination system that uses random hit determination tables, and here is why... If you have every looked at an image of a spacecraft, or an aircraft that is being tracked that is 100 meters or so long, and 10,000 (or more) Km away (...and I have, even at 250 Km determining exactly where to strike a target with a projectile or beam weapon is ...well, a dice throw... ) one would know that even with a highly advanced targeted system, knowing what and where to target a specific subsystem of a vessel would be extremely difficult. The only exception to this being active sensors that transmit energy pulses (Such as Radar, Ladar, Lidar, or other similar systems, which if I was designing, would stick the transmitter into a separate probe or spacecraft satellite (which could easily be target locked) but which would be some safe distance away from my vessel and all of the living people aboard. I'm also not fond of the generic critical hit tables in the 81 edition of the rules (as well as High Guard), however believe that critical hits should be included with certain defective ship designs that does include a chance of catastrophic failure, however each ship should have its own unique critical hit tables, and the chances of a catastrophically destructive critical hit should be significantly statistically smaller than the 81 edition which provides a basic 1.35% chance of having your ship explode with just about any hit roll. I much prefer a secondary critical hit table that requires at least 3d6 hit locations so that the odds of auto-destruction are greater than 500-1 and usually just around 1000-1. Mostly I figure Interstellar spacecraft would be specifically (and expensively) hardened to resist just such a catastrophic failure. These days (really meaning, since 1985 or so...) when I create new ship designs, I also create custom hit location tables for the ship in question. Also GaryCon was pretty awesome, will be posting a bit more on that later. Also won't be needing to create a sentient alien generation system now, because Marc told me he included that with T5, and is planning on getting 5th edition Traveller back into print this Autumn, and it is still available on the T5 CD/DvD over on the farFuture website. Marc Miller's Official Traveller Websitewww.farfuture.net/
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