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Post by Mr Darke on Feb 27, 2018 18:44:05 GMT -5
So, I have been thinking about why Clerics cannot turn demons like they do (or instead of) undead. In my opinion they should be able to as a demon is the antithesis of their beliefs and their true enemy. Yes undead are bad but wouldn't it make more sense to let Druids turn Undead as they are a mockery of life and let Clerics deal with demons? If so, How would you do this for Clerics of lower to higher level?
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Post by Admin Pete on Feb 27, 2018 23:59:03 GMT -5
So, I have been thinking about why Clerics cannot turn demons like they do (or instead of) undead. In my opinion they should be able to as a demon is the antithesis of their beliefs and their true enemy. Yes undead are bad but wouldn't it make more sense to let Druids turn Undead as they are a mockery of life and let Clerics deal with demons? If so, How would you do this for Clerics of lower to higher level? I just decide how powerful the demon is compared to various types of undead and go from there. Is it less, equal or greater than a wraith or much worse than a vampire or whatever.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2018 0:42:32 GMT -5
My interpretation way back in the day was this ... Undead were powered by Chaos, which varied from a dim spark in skeletons to a roaring flame in vampires. Demons, on the other hand, were the very embodiment of Chaos. In order to repel them? The cleric needed to be a paragon of Law and virtue. Beginning at Patriarch of the Ninth Level, clerics had gained enough virtue to have the ability to turn demons. Like the undead this progressed, but I never had anyone advance to mega-levels like in some campaigns. Most player-characters semi-retired from adventuring to play the "game of thrones" upon reaching name levels (give or take a few levels). So, I never had to decide if they could rebuke Orcus back to the Underworld or not.
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Post by Admin Pete on Feb 28, 2018 1:34:33 GMT -5
My interpretation way back in the day was this ... Undead were powered by Chaos, which varied from a dim spark in skeletons to a roaring flame in vampires. Demons, on the other hand, were the very embodiment of Chaos. In order to repel them? The cleric needed to be a paragon of Law and virtue. Beginning at Patriarch of the Ninth Level, clerics had gained enough virtue to have the ability to turn demons. Like the undead this progressed, but I never had anyone advance to mega-levels like in some campaigns. Most player-characters semi-retired from adventuring to play the "game of thrones" upon reaching name levels (give or take a few levels). So, I never had to decide if they could rebuke Orcus back to the Underworld or not. There are IMC a lot of levels of power between your average "red-shirt" demon and Orcus!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2018 1:54:04 GMT -5
There are IMC a lot of levels of power between your average "red-shirt" demon and Orcus! And that’s exactly why I never had to figure it out! I never had a player get that high, so I never needed to.
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Post by Mr Darke on Feb 28, 2018 19:59:31 GMT -5
My interpretation way back in the day was this ... Undead were powered by Chaos, which varied from a dim spark in skeletons to a roaring flame in vampires. Demons, on the other hand, were the very embodiment of Chaos. In order to repel them? The cleric needed to be a paragon of Law and virtue. Beginning at Patriarch of the Ninth Level, clerics had gained enough virtue to have the ability to turn demons. Like the undead this progressed, but I never had anyone advance to mega-levels like in some campaigns. Most player-characters semi-retired from adventuring to play the "game of thrones" upon reaching name levels (give or take a few levels). So, I never had to decide if they could rebuke Orcus back to the Underworld or not. I like this.
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Post by robkuntz on Mar 1, 2018 12:11:03 GMT -5
Too powerful. Demonic kind in my own world system are rare and should be headed off before they arrive on terra. Once there they are a bugger to conquer as their leaders achieve god-like powers. Different angle for sure, but no instant remedy in game terms, especially one that is so readily accessed.
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Post by Dartanian on Mar 1, 2018 13:15:40 GMT -5
There are IMC a lot of levels of power between your average "red-shirt" demon and Orcus! Too powerful. Demonic kind in my own world system are rare and should be headed off before they arrive on terra. Once there they are a bugger to conquer as their leaders achieve god-like powers. Different angle for sure, but no instant remedy in game terms, especially one that is so readily accessed. I think PD and Rob both agree quite a bit, Rob keeps all demons really powerful and PD has demons that range in power from demonic "kobolds-weak" to "ancient dragons-powerful plus" and I am guessing that he only allows the weaker ones to be summoned and otherwise not. I go more the route that Rob does.
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Post by Mr Darke on Mar 3, 2018 14:02:35 GMT -5
I'm coming in from the context of my own campaign which has some historical and real world based ideas. So clerics turning, commanding and expelling demons are a thing in my world. There are many real life examples of this in history and religion so that is what I am going for in my campaign. Granted, you are going to need to be higher level and maybe have a couple other clerics with you for the more powerful ones but it should be doable in that context.
Otherwise, what is the whole point in a deity creating a church and letting mortals run it without giving them to ability to contain one of the bigger threats to that world?
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Post by robkuntz on Mar 3, 2018 15:22:15 GMT -5
There are IMC a lot of levels of power between your average "red-shirt" demon and Orcus! Too powerful. Demonic kind in my own world system are rare and should be headed off before they arrive on terra. Once there they are a bugger to conquer as their leaders achieve god-like powers. Different angle for sure, but no instant remedy in game terms, especially one that is so readily accessed. I think PD and Rob both agree quite a bit, Rob keeps all demons really powerful and PD has demons that range in power from demonic "kobolds-weak" to "ancient dragons-powerful plus" and I am guessing that he only allows the weaker ones to be summoned and otherwise not. I go more the route that Rob does. Well, sorta, but yeah. There are "demon"-type-spawn, but they are not technically related. The cosmology of what I term to be of a spiritual class of ultra beings ('Deman', which in fact means "two men") are very powerful and very limited in numbers (because of the will required to manifest in the world) just like dragons are legendary survivors of different reptile strains and are too limited in numbers because of that (survival of the fittest).
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Post by Dartanian on Mar 10, 2018 11:25:20 GMT -5
robkuntz have you ever written about your dragons, sounds like a cool concept?
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Post by captaincrumbcake on Mar 11, 2018 17:26:51 GMT -5
Could be too broad a stroke. I consider Vampires a for sure mockery of life, and would not, thus, lump them in with skeletons and zombies. Wights, too have more of a basis in the anti-life concept than skellies and zombies. And what about the mummy? All 3 of these stem from a corruption of the living much more than merely animating the bones and corpses of the dead.
So, I'm not sure that "Undead" are less an abomination of life, than the demons. That said, I do think clerics (not druids) should have some kind of an ability dealing with lesser demons.
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Mar 12, 2018 0:44:11 GMT -5
Asked my wife, an expert Call of Cthulhu GM, about this topic of Turning Demons. She says to turn them when they're a light brown and crispy at the edges. Use plenty of olive oil. (No Crisco.)
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Post by fearghus on Mar 21, 2018 20:26:27 GMT -5
I am not certain how to make a game mechanic out of it, but I like some of the ideas in movies such as the Conjuring. That particular movie deals with some sort of astral or ethereal plane where mortals can project their spirit. In this realm, referred to by one medium as the Further, spirits wander until they can move on (the criteria being different for every spirit. whatever it takes to make peace). However, there are also demons that wander here.
Anyway, the movie made some differences between the inhabitants. Many of the spirits wanted to be alive again. The majority were weak and harmless, some were strong and were essentially poltergeists, and the demon was in its own class well above the others. My memory is fuzzy, but I don't think the demon was ever confronted, only encountered. The vengeful spirits were powerful in their own right, but typically their power was through fear and fatigue.
Not sure where I was going with this as I have lost my train of thought. I wanted to make some allusions to some other books and movies like the Exorcist and LotR and how a faithful type would combat a demon.
It many ways this turns into something I would adjudicate differently on a case-by-case basis instead of having formal mechanics to cover all situations.
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Apr 14, 2018 10:28:42 GMT -5
My interpretation way back in the day was this ... Undead were powered by Chaos, which varied from a dim spark in skeletons to a roaring flame in vampires. Demons, on the other hand, were the very embodiment of Chaos. In order to repel them? The cleric needed to be a paragon of Law and virtue. Beginning at Patriarch of the Ninth Level, clerics had gained enough virtue to have the ability to turn demons. Like the undead this progressed, but I never had anyone advance to mega-levels like in some campaigns. Most player-characters semi-retired from adventuring to play the "game of thrones" upon reaching name levels (give or take a few levels). So, I never had to decide if they could rebuke Orcus back to the Underworld or not. I like this, I like this A LOT! Thanks @piper.
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Post by robkuntz on Apr 14, 2018 12:36:27 GMT -5
robkuntz have you ever written about your dragons, sounds like a cool concept? Oh. I missed this. Sorry. I have written about them in several works published or unpublished. I do a semi-related treatment on them in City of Brass (Kenzer) but it is not a full one because of the state of that ms when published. The expanded version (unpublished) details more on dragons of that ilk as mentioned. Since each has a unique history there are no general set of "dragon class" powers accorded to them, so I get to fiddle with these as I want. Those of higher intelligence are very rare and are considered archetypes.
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Post by Dartanian on Apr 20, 2018 13:42:07 GMT -5
robkuntz have you ever written about your dragons, sounds like a cool concept? Oh. I missed this. Sorry. I have written about them in several works published or unpublished. I do a semi-related treatment on them in City of Brass (Kenzer) but it is not a full one because of the state of that ms when published. The expanded version (unpublished) details more on dragons of that ilk as mentioned. Since each has a unique history there are no general set of "dragon class" powers accorded to them, so I get to fiddle with these as I want. Those of higher intelligence are very rare and are considered archetypes. Every dragon is unique and is or could be as different as fire and ice. Are any of those works that contain dragons still in print?
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Post by The Red Baron on Apr 20, 2018 15:25:39 GMT -5
So, I have been thinking about why Clerics cannot turn demons like they do (or instead of) undead. In my opinion they should be able to as a demon is the antithesis of their beliefs and their true enemy. Yes undead are bad but wouldn't it make more sense to let Druids turn Undead as they are a mockery of life and let Clerics deal with demons? If so, How would you do this for Clerics of lower to higher level? See first level cleric and magic user spell - protection from evil
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Post by sepulchre on Apr 22, 2018 21:26:01 GMT -5
Here are some precedents from AD&D and after:
8th level or better clerics turn "Evil creatures from lower planes such as minor demons, lesser devils, mezzodaemons, night hags, from 1-2 in number. (As a rule of thumb, any creature with armor class of -5 or better, 11 or more hit dice, or 66% or greater magic resistance will be unaffected) (76 DMG). Turning demons doesn't become particularly effective until 14th level. Despite the heresy of 2nd Edition, there is a 'kit', the preacher, permitting a cleric to turn 'supernatural' creatures - those other than undead, at a -2 penalty and only to hold them at bay unless a 'D' is scored and the creatures must flee .
Red Baron wrote:
Quite accessible, indeed.
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Post by mao on May 16, 2018 11:13:39 GMT -5
I don't even let clerics turn undead!(I give them bonus spells to replace this abiliy)
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Post by True Black Raven on Jun 8, 2018 9:36:28 GMT -5
I don't even let clerics turn undead!(I give them bonus spells to replace this abiliy) Would you expand on that please?
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Post by mao on Jun 8, 2018 10:26:09 GMT -5
I don't even let clerics turn undead!(I give them bonus spells to replace this abiliy) Would you expand on that please? I basically let the player pick an ability that is more fitting of the god they worship, so for example a fire god might let the cleric have burning hands as one of their spells(yes this is kinda a domain like 3E) The most popular god in my world grants use of two handed swords.
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Post by robkuntz on Jun 8, 2018 11:36:11 GMT -5
Oh. I missed this. Sorry. I have written about them in several works published or unpublished. I do a semi-related treatment on them in City of Brass (Kenzer) but it is not a full one because of the state of that ms when published. The expanded version (unpublished) details more on dragons of that ilk as mentioned. Since each has a unique history there are no general set of "dragon class" powers accorded to them, so I get to fiddle with these as I want. Those of higher intelligence are very rare and are considered archetypes. Every dragon is unique and is or could be as different as fire and ice. Are any of those works that contain dragons still in print? No. City of Bras through Kenzer is oop.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 13:35:36 GMT -5
City of Bras? In the land of the Happy Amazons?
Dang, am I sorry I missed THAT!
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Post by robkuntz on Jun 8, 2018 15:42:25 GMT -5
City of Bras? In the land of the Happy Amazons? Dang, am I sorry I missed THAT! You were too busy ogling the bodices...
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Post by Mighty Darci on Jun 9, 2018 9:17:31 GMT -5
Would you expand on that please? I basically let the player pick an ability that is more fitting of the god they worship, so for example a fire god might let the cleric have burning hands as one of their spells(yes this is kinda a domain like 3E) The most popular god in my world grants use of two handed swords. How does this work? Burning hands would not seem to be even close to the ability to attempt to turn three vampires or a dozen wraiths.
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Post by mao on Jun 18, 2018 9:28:07 GMT -5
I basically let the player pick an ability that is more fitting of the god they worship, so for example a fire god might let the cleric have burning hands as one of their spells(yes this is kinda a domain like 3E) The most popular god in my world grants use of two handed swords. How does this work? Burning hands would not seem to be even close to the ability to attempt to turn three vampires or a dozen wraiths. my game world had no major gods, for example the main god of Norse is Munin , Odins Raven. very minor gods are only capable of minor abilities, thus cleric was a weak class.
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Post by Admin Pete on Jun 18, 2018 17:13:59 GMT -5
How does this work? Burning hands would not seem to be even close to the ability to attempt to turn three vampires or a dozen wraiths. my game world had no major gods, for example the main god of Norse is Munin , Odins Raven. very minor gods are only capable of minor abilities, thus cleric was a weak class. I like that, a clear world based reason for the class being weak.
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Post by Dartanian on Jun 22, 2018 23:39:30 GMT -5
Every dragon is unique and is or could be as different as fire and ice. Are any of those works that contain dragons still in print? No. City of Brass through Kenzer is oop. Sorry to hear that, maybe you can bring it back into print someday.
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Post by robkuntz on Jun 23, 2018 5:18:13 GMT -5
No. City of Brass through Kenzer is oop. Sorry to hear that, maybe you can bring it back into print someday. I was working on that through Black Blade Publishing, but we have since moved onto a bigger project. My RPG product days have become limited to very select projects as I move towards ending them in the next few years. Concentrating on History, Game Philosophy, Related Stories and, in particular, board games which is where I initially cut my teeth in design thinking. Also some more creative excursions afield, but time and opportunity will tell with those.
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