TSR Followed the Comic Book Code?

[ripx187]

Turns out, they did and adapted it further. For those interested, I wrote my thoughts on it on my Blog, it also includes the link to where I found this info at. It deals primarily with AD&D, but it is a piece of history.

The TSR Code of Ethics

As always, am interested in what you think.

[Hexenritter Verlag]

Loved the blog, I used to love AD&D but after 2e was released I eventually left for other games including Cyberspace & Palladium Fantasy. A lot of it was the rules bloat of 2e, the Time of Troubles & then Hordes meta-plots in FR; plus the bland comic bookie art. I preferred 1e AD&D to 2e. Though I did come back with 3.5 I couldn't get into the rules I instead liked the campaigns (3.5 FR - though I got sick of the setting bloat & Eberron).

I really missed the edgy art of 1e - the art often painted a picture that draws you in. Though I liked art from some of the 2e & 3.5 artists over all I preferred 1e & B/X D&D art. Ross Nicholson, Dave Trampier & Jim Roslof's art - their art evokes D&D to me. The art wasn't safe like later art, though I did like the art Eberron, a lot of it did evoke the setting but even it didn't stand up to Nicholson, Trampier & Roslof's art to me. The art in the Lamentation of the Flame Princess products seem to bring back that edgy art that TSR post code art lost.

[ripx187]

I think that you'll always love your first, Hexenritter Verlag, and 2e was my first. The blog was started to defend 2e. At the time it got a lot of hate for no real reason and I couldn't just sit there while everyone trashed my favorite system. I still love it, but I see its problems. The Internet presence of the system is much stronger now, many tables have gone back to it. As far as rules go, I believe that it is the most complete ruleset that can still be interpreted. You can alter entire sections of how things work without it changing any of the other mechanics, that is a big deal!

The bloat came from its long life-span, it tried really hard to separate itself from 1e, and make itself a stand-alone system. The 2e Player's Handbook is far superior to original AD&D's, but the DMG only had the modifications to Gygax's version. Later publications would go back to Gygax's original texts and expand upon his ideas (typically over-expand). Much of 2e's publications were bloat, explanations for new users or whatnot, but some of that stuff was really cool!

As a DM who has used this material for 20+ years, I don't play by the book. I see no difference between any of the early Editions, it is all D&D. I find more joy in the art of world-building and the Do-it-yourself spirit than in the mechanical aspect of the game. It is my players that prefer 2e, but they let me get away with murder if it means a smooth running game on my side of the screen.

Forgotten Realms, that is a fascinating setting. You go back to those early Dragon Magazines and can see a story develope, it went from a published letter in the comments section to a series of fun articles to a regular feature that was often a highlight of the mag, to a box set setting, to the default setting which everyone who plays Dungeons & Dragons knows today. How many ideas can you actually watch something evolve like this?

The original Boxset, and the 2e Boxset were amazing products, but once again they were ruined by corporate tinkering. There are some really cool modules, but most of them are trash. Today you've got self-styled EXPERTS on the Realms, and the web is full of people who want to know specifics. I always encourage them to make it up, but my comments on the subject are the least read on the internet. 
 

[Hexenritter Verlag]

Feb 17, 2018 15:26:08 GMT -5 ripx187 said:

I think that you'll always love your first, Hexenritter Verlag , and 2e was my first. The blog was started to defend 2e. At the time it got a lot of hate for no real reason and I couldn't just sit there while everyone trashed my favorite system. I still love it, but I see its problems. The Internet presence of the system is much stronger now, many tables have gone back to it. As far as rules go, I believe that it is the most complete ruleset that can still be interpreted. You can alter entire sections of how things work without it changing any of the other mechanics, that is a big deal!

The bloat came from its long life-span, it tried really hard to separate itself from 1e, and make itself a stand-alone system. The 2e Player's Handbook is far superior to original AD&D's, but the DMG only had the modifications to Gygax's version. Later publications would go back to Gygax's original texts and expand upon his ideas (typically over-expand). Much of 2e's publications were bloat, explanations for new users or whatnot, but some of that stuff was really cool!

As a DM who has used this material for 20+ years, I don't play by the book. I see no difference between any of the early Editions, it is all D&D. I find more joy in the art of world-building and the Do-it-yourself spirit than in the mechanical aspect of the game. It is my players that prefer 2e, but they let me get away with murder if it means a smooth running game on my side of the screen.

Forgotten Realms, that is a fascinating setting. You go back to those early Dragon Magazines and can see a story develope, it went from a published letter in the comments section to a series of fun articles to a regular feature that was often a highlight of the mag, to a box set setting, to the default setting which everyone who plays Dungeons & Dragons knows today. How many ideas can you actually watch something evolve like this?

The original Boxset, and the 2e Boxset were amazing products, but once again they were ruined by corporate tinkering. There are some really cool modules, but most of them are trash. Today you've got self-styled EXPERTS on the Realms, and the web is full of people who want to know specifics. I always encourage them to make it up, but my comments on the subject are the least read on the internet. 
 

I totally understand - I still own my my 2e AD&D stuff & I'll play in campaigns based in it. But my thing with 2e beyond the eventual bloat is the art both the covers & interior art (though I like some)- I am a veryvisual guy, art can kill my interest in a product & I preferred the 1e Dungeon Master Guide over the 2e one; but as you said we love our first version of D&D. I loved the art in Monstrous Compendium Annual vol 1 - the art of Tony DiTerlizzi was awesome.

I know people who loved the expanded content TSR put out for 2e rules, but after awhile it got much to me, but I am a rules-light guy. It is why I cannot run RIFTS - there is just too much stuff to pick from. There was so much cool Shoot in 2e & RIFTS but it was just overwhelming to me; but I'll never diss anyone for liking any rules. I love the kits in 2e, that was a great series of supplements.

TSR did a good job with 2e with the settings - but FR was my baby, it was my first setting I owned & connected with. Dark Sun was cool, but I never played it. I also liked Al-Qadim, but I wish they'd have kept it fully separate from FR. You are correct, how FR evolved in Dragon was cool
but I didn't like 2e FR - they killed off some of my favorite deities & then added new ones. I am just not a fan of meta-plot in settings, which ruined my love of both FR & RIFTS. As I said I loved 3.5 FR stuff but even then I find it hard to make FR mine as a Referee with everything being detailed but after 4e it was dead to me; which is why I going back to the 1e FR Grey box.

Modules are just not my thing, I just can't do pre-canned adventures but I'll mine them for my own stuff.

[ripx187]

I wonder how many characters were killed specifically by TSR. The idea of this happening today, hopefully, wouldn't fly. All of the Assassins were sacrificed and dropped dead all at once. That is crazy!!!! Sorry, but not only do we not support your class anymore, but the Meta-plot has slain you and your Dungeon Master has been instructed to help you create a new PC PC. People did it too.

They did give some cool stuff back after doing this though, Wild Magic is a crazy awesome and fun idea! Restructuring clerics to use the Sphere system, which helped make clerics different. I also like the idea of Specialty Wizards, however in practice we hardly ever used this. All of it led to bloat. I don't like the cleric spell system anymore. All of the spells identified is just too much. It is kind of cool how they actually transitioned in the new rules. In the begining, the FR material was slow to be published because they did want things perfect and they put thought into it, however, after all these years it has just become too much.

The DM should know more about the setting than the players, and the DM is constantly fighting for control. This is OUR version of Forgotten Realms. But is it ever really?

That is what makes this BBS so exciting to me. DO IT YOURSELF! From the top down. I love 2e but I haven't actually played it for years, my players think that they do! But I've got them ready to ditch the Magic System cause I hate it, and I think that that is really the last remnent of AD&D that my game truly has.

[Hexenritter Verlag]

Feb 17, 2018 17:45:30 GMT -5 ripx187 said:

That is what makes this BBS so exciting to me. DO IT YOURSELF! From the top down. I love 2e but I haven't actually played it for years, my players think that they do! But I've got them ready to ditch the Magic System cause I hate it, and I think that that is really the last remnent of AD&D that my game truly has.

I love this forum as well. What do you hate about the magic system? Just curious, I prefer a different system as most of my experience was with Rolemaster, so power/magic points make more sense to me. What I loved OD&D, Basic D&D, B/X D&D & to a degree 1e/2e AD&D - was that you play them by the book or drop things you don't like add things you did like; such as you can use the Arms & Spell Laws of Rolemaster with them & it works just fine.

[Deleted]

SHAZAM!

New thread created!

[mormonyoyoman]

(Can't stop my twisted winding brain.)

Leftover character from my theater days in 1973:

SHAZAM - only partly stolen from Kurtzburg.

Sweaty armpits
Herbiepopnecker
Aardvark
Zoot suits
Another aardvark
Money

[ripx187]

Hexenritter Verlag, the 2e magic is gone. There are just too many spells identified. You read the old game reports and see how much fun they had inventing their own spells, or see how it changed the game, and I want to do that! I want to build the spell system from the ground up and make it magic again. We've used the same spell lists for 20 years, in that time it has become kind of a science. It is too predictable.

I hate the Cleric Sphere system. They have access to too many spells and it leads to the player being over-whelmed or spending the game with their noses in the handbook trying to memorize all of them. Wizards are much the same, their lists get bloated and they miss opportunities. As DM I don't use either system, the NPC just casts spells that he needs, I don't even look them up if I am playing on the fly.

I want to bring back that sense of dread and wonder. The worlds are supposed to be magically weak compaired to the magics of the ancients, yet are they? I want to create common spells, the spells in OD&D, but build our own as the game progresses. I also want to change the way that spells are cast as well as aquired. I've got some ideas that I'm working on that might work. I don't want the rules of magic to be known, and I don't want all spells to behave predictabley. I want the players and me to build it ourselves.

[Hexenritter Verlag]

Feb 18, 2018 16:12:27 GMT -5 ripx187 said:

Hexenritter Verlag , the 2e magic is gone. There are just too many spells identified. You read the old game reports and see how much fun they had inventing their own spells, or see how it changed the game, and I want to do that! I want to build the spell system from the ground up and make it magic again. We've used the same spell lists for 20 years, in that time it has become kind of a science. It is too predictable.

I hate the Cleric Sphere system. They have access to too many spells and it leads to the player being over-whelmed or spending the game with their noses in the handbook trying to memorize all of them. Wizards are much the same, their lists get bloated and they miss opportunities. As DM I don't use either system, the NPC just casts spells that he needs, I don't even look them up if I am playing on the fly.

I want to bring back that sense of dread and wonder. The worlds are supposed to be magically weak compaired to the magics of the ancients, yet are they? I want to create common spells, the spells in OD&D, but build our own as the game progresses. I also want to change the way that spells are cast as well as aquired. I've got some ideas that I'm working on that might work. I don't want the rules of magic to be known, and I don't want all spells to behave predictabley. I want the players and me to build it ourselves.

I have to admit that in general I am not a fan of both the D&D Vancian & the Rolemaster spell list system for similar reasons. Magic is supposed to be special - though I do like High Magic settings like Eberron; I think that even in those settings magic can still be mysterious, with new spells be discovered and old spells being modified into something new. The issue is crafting an easy and quick system to simulate that kind of magic.

I don't like clerics, to me they should be a flavor of Magic-user & clerics should be converted to become Paladins. They get 'Laying of hands' healing that has use/per day based on once per day/+1 per Wis bonus or 3 levels (2 times a day at 3rd, 3 times a day at 6th & 4 times a day at 9th). They get weapons linked to their deity & standard Cleric Turn Undead; plus maybe a blessing or curse they can cast once a day starting at 3rd level and get another at 6th and then 9th levels.

Any new system must have simple rules for spell research to create new spells and eventually create personalized magical items. Let the players use their imaginations in creation of these spells but have certain power limits imposed so spells won't become too powerful, but if they are they could corrupt, mutate or kill the magic-user for pushing their limits.

[mao]

Hexenritter Verlag, Have you given Crypts &Things a look? No clerics whatsoever.

[ripx187]

I never got into the whole OSR thing, it is an expensive hobby. Oddly enough I was part of the dialog that created it. Free Data, while not popular in these parts, is my mantra. With the exception of the odd book that was suggested here, I haven't purchased anything new in a long long time. As far as the OSR goes, that market is so saturated that it is pointless. The cream has already risen to the top and the products have become what they were fighting against.

Do-it-yourself: That is what I am into now. That has always been what I was into once I realized what a setting really was. Sure it is easier to look at all of the billions of ways that others have done something, but that isn't what I want out of the game. There may be better ways, but I would rather have MY way. I've got some ideas, maybe they are new maybe they aren't.

How the game was played by Arneson, that is what interests me. A setting and mechanics that develope over the years. This isn't work for me, this is what makes it fun.

I watch my players play clerics and it is totally different than I do. I have always played them as fighters who are also researchers. Many play them as spellcasters, or even worse, medics. If the cleric class IS going to be a medic, then I feel that it would be best that it be an NPC. A Defensive Spellcaster is an interesting idea and might be more along the lines of what my players want, but for me, it is a chance to really put some beef on the spiritual aspect of the setting.

What really influences my ideas isn't the PC class at all, but my monsters. I play each tribe differently, but some tribes I want to have a strong spiritual leader, complete with a powerful and potent god. The Shaman, the feared witch-doctors. A blend of Wizardry and Spiritual magic. Probably Blood magic where sacrifices are rewarded. In my own fantasy games, I have kind of started doing this already, by replacing monster cleric spells with wizardry, but I would like a better system.

Something like this definitely breaks the comic book code. I want to make a distinction between weak human magic, and powerful savage magic. I want it to be more difficult to expand "Modern Society" into the wild frontier owned by older gods.

I also want my Clerics to have a valuable role to play. A very defined role depending on the type of Cleric that they wish to play.

As far as Wizards go, I like the idea of Schools of magic, but there are just too many of them in the 2e rules. I've got a lot to think about in regards to this class. I still want them to be the Catapults in the game, I know that I want one school to be responsible and powerful within Government, and one school to be illegal. I have some other ideas for roles that other schools would play in society but just sketches until I can actually sit down and see everything. I'd also like to do this with the players, find out what they think would be cool. I want the Mage class to have difficulty finding its place in Modern Society. I want them to be Feared. I want them dabbling with forces that nobody is really sure if they are actually controlling or not.

Mechanically, I want an unstable system, nothing as crazy as the Wild Magic tables of Forgotten Realms, but more along the lines of a Fighters ability to hit or not hit. Like I said, I've got a lot of work to do. 

[Bartholmew Quarrels]

Feb 19, 2018 17:33:57 GMT -5 ripx187 said:

I never got into the whole OSR thing, it is an expensive hobby. Oddly enough I was part of the dialog that created it. Free Data, while not popular in these parts, is my mantra. With the exception of the odd book that was suggested here, I haven't purchased anything new in a long long time. As far as the OSR goes, that market is so saturated that it is pointless. The cream has already risen to the top and the products have become what they were fighting against.

Do-it-yourself: That is what I am into now. That has always been what I was into once I realized what a setting really was. Sure it is easier to look at all of the billions of ways that others have done something, but that isn't what I want out of the game. There may be better ways, but I would rather have MY way. I've got some ideas, maybe they are new maybe they aren't.

How the game was played by Arneson, that is what interests me. A setting and mechanics that develope over the years. This isn't work for me, this is what makes it fun.

I watch my players play clerics and it is totally different than I do. I have always played them as fighters who are also researchers. Many play them as spellcasters, or even worse, medics. If the cleric class IS going to be a medic, then I feel that it would be best that it be an NPC. A Defensive Spellcaster is an interesting idea and might be more along the lines of what my players want, but for me, it is a chance to really put some beef on the spiritual aspect of the setting.

What really influences my ideas isn't the PC class at all, but my monsters. I play each tribe differently, but some tribes I want to have a strong spiritual leader, complete with a powerful and potent god. The Shaman, the feared witch-doctors. A blend of Wizardry and Spiritual magic. Probably Blood magic where sacrifices are rewarded. In my own fantasy games, I have kind of started doing this already, by replacing monster cleric spells with wizardry, but I would like a better system.

Something like this definitely breaks the comic book code. I want to make a distinction between weak human magic, and powerful savage magic. I want it to be more difficult to expand "Modern Society" into the wild frontier owned by older gods.

I also want my Clerics to have a valuable role to play. A very defined role depending on the type of Cleric that they wish to play.

As far as Wizards go, I like the idea of Schools of magic, but there are just too many of them in the 2e rules. I've got a lot to think about in regards to this class. I still want them to be the Catapults in the game, I know that I want one school to be responsible and powerful within Government, and one school to be illegal. I have some other ideas for roles that other schools would play in society but just sketches until I can actually sit down and see everything. I'd also like to do this with the players, find out what they think would be cool. I want the Mage class to have difficulty finding its place in Modern Society. I want them to be Feared. I want them dabbling with forces that nobody is really sure if they are actually controlling or not.

Mechanically, I want an unstable system, nothing as crazy as the Wild Magic tables of Forgotten Realms, but more along the lines of a Fighters ability to hit or not hit. Like I said, I've got a lot of work to do. 

Lots of good things here, interesting ideas regarding clerics, gods, monsters and mages. As far as the OSR thing being expensive. A big chunk of the "OSR" does not charge for their products and there is enough there to keep you too busy to even look at the stuff people charge for so it (IMO) does not have to be expensive. Of course if you bought everything that was for sale it would add up in a hurry.

[Hexenritter Verlag]

Feb 19, 2018 17:33:57 GMT -5 ripx187 said:

I never got into the whole OSR thing, it is an expensive hobby. Oddly enough I was part of the dialog that created it. Free Data, while not popular in these parts, is my mantra. With the exception of the odd book that was suggested here, I haven't purchased anything new in a long long time. As far as the OSR goes, that market is so saturated that it is pointless. The cream has already risen to the top and the products have become what they were fighting against.

Do-it-yourself: That is what I am into now. That has always been what I was into once I realized what a setting really was. Sure it is easier to look at all of the billions of ways that others have done something, but that isn't what I want out of the game. There may be better ways, but I would rather have MY way. I've got some ideas, maybe they are new maybe they aren't.

How the game was played by Arneson, that is what interests me. A setting and mechanics that develope over the years. This isn't work for me, this is what makes it fun.

I watch my players play clerics and it is totally different than I do. I have always played them as fighters who are also researchers. Many play them as spellcasters, or even worse, medics. If the cleric class IS going to be a medic, then I feel that it would be best that it be an NPC. A Defensive Spellcaster is an interesting idea and might be more along the lines of what my players want, but for me, it is a chance to really put some beef on the spiritual aspect of the setting.

What really influences my ideas isn't the PC class at all, but my monsters. I play each tribe differently, but some tribes I want to have a strong spiritual leader, complete with a powerful and potent god. The Shaman, the feared witch-doctors. A blend of Wizardry and Spiritual magic. Probably Blood magic where sacrifices are rewarded. In my own fantasy games, I have kind of started doing this already, by replacing monster cleric spells with wizardry, but I would like a better system.

Something like this definitely breaks the comic book code. I want to make a distinction between weak human magic, and powerful savage magic. I want it to be more difficult to expand "Modern Society" into the wild frontier owned by older gods.

I also want my Clerics to have a valuable role to play. A very defined role depending on the type of Cleric that they wish to play.

As far as Wizards go, I like the idea of Schools of magic, but there are just too many of them in the 2e rules. I've got a lot to think about in regards to this class. I still want them to be the Catapults in the game, I know that I want one school to be responsible and powerful within Government, and one school to be illegal. I have some other ideas for roles that other schools would play in society but just sketches until I can actually sit down and see everything. I'd also like to do this with the players, find out what they think would be cool. I want the Mage class to have difficulty finding its place in Modern Society. I want them to be Feared. I want them dabbling with forces that nobody is really sure if they are actually controlling or not.

Mechanically, I want an unstable system, nothing as crazy as the Wild Magic tables of Forgotten Realms, but more along the lines of a Fighters ability to hit or not hit. Like I said, I've got a lot of work to do. 

ripx187, my view on OSR's are I like the various takes on the rules, but I hate how a previous edition will be updated from time to time which can be spendy if you buy them in a physical copy to keep them up to date. It also didn't hurt that when I got into them the originals were not available in PDF or print unless you bought it for a mint on a online distro. I like some of the games that tweak the originals like Scott's Treasure Hunters. But over all I am not a huge fan of the clones I currently own (BFRPG, LL or S&W Complete), I'd rather play OD&D or B/X from the originals - then I'll house rule them if I need to. Another thing I like from OSR publishers is the supplements (including monster manuals)if only for inspiration.

Being influenced by the Punk subculture growing up DIY is something I prefer. Though I've run games in canned settings & still like them, when it comes down to it I prefer to DIY it & create my own setting. I've also started designing my own races, monsters & magical items; I just need to figure out a spell system & custom spells.

I want magic to be dangerous & varied,like how it works in Warhammer Fantasy 2e, Rolemaster (minus the crunch) & Low Fantasy Gaming RPG. In certain cultures magic will be more frequent & almost treated like a science but it is predictable & weaker; but rare, dark & primal in others, leading to potential corruption, mutation, possession or death, but the boons are worth it if you achieve mastery. I also want a system used by tribal animistic cultures that tap into spirits of nature, underworld spirits or deities, were divination, sacrifices & ritual play a major part of their magic, the same for some forms of sorcery.

I do like your desire to have magic schools to play different roles in society Ripx187, I'd love to see what you come up with for your campaign as you develo it.

[xizallian]

This is from over three years ago, so if you have not read the OPs blog post, go do that now, you can thank me later.