What are the top ten things that you expect of a PbP game?

[Admin Pete]

1. What are the top ten things that you expect of a PbP game? (you don't have to post ten things, I just like the way that sounds. ) Whether you play in PbP games or not, please share your thoughts with me.

2. What things do you want to see in a PbP game?

3. What things do you not want to see in a PbP game.

4. If you could be enticed into playing what are the deal-breakers for you and why?

5. What would be the sure-fired I have to play in that game things.

6. What are the names of the game or games that you have participated in as PbP and which ones did you like the best as PbP and why?

7. What are the things that would make you pay closer attention to the game you are playing in or would like to play in?

[hengest]

1. Coherence. Fun.
2. Players having a good time, focus.
3. Endless calculations and nonsense to attempt anything.
4. Deal-breakers include "forced" participation in trivia that could be handwaved.
5. A good balance of coherent world, gonzo wackiness. A good balance of character stuff as determined by players and just interacting with the world through your avatar.
6. Only Holmes. I thought it was run fairly well - minimal trivia dumped on the players.
7. Stuff for me to look at away from the computer that will inform my posts: a map I can print out and look at on the train, a writeup from the DM about the local area and what we know about it, a set of guidelines. Whatever. Once we've played some, occasional recaps emailed or posted. Stuff to help me to play the game even away from the game, since this makes up in part for the loss of the table.

[randyb]

1. Pacing. PbP, like its cousin PBeM, is slower than tabletop as measured in realtime. Events in a PbP need to move at a faster pace than on the tabletop. Combat is a tougher issue here. Non-Combat time should pass as quickly as practical.
2. "Yes", or "yes, but..." as the default DMs answers. "No" should be rare, but used when necessary.
3. Puzzles or mysteries whose clues are buried in a wall of text or DMs infodump. The clues are obvious to the DM, but completely obscured for the players.
4. A deal-breaker for me is "some or all of the PCs are supporting cast in the DMs story". PbP/PBeM lend themselves to frustrated authors taking their friends on a guided tour of their novel.
5. Hard to say. Time is my main limiter, so there would have to be something that makes it worth committing my time. Unfortunately, I have no suggestions.
6. No PbP. Several PBeM, many of which suffered from pacing issues or one or more of #s 2-4 above.
7. Infodumps as separate documents. Game posts need to be event-driven. Think cinematic scenes, not literary chapters.

Overall, while PbP is a textual medium, it needs to be treated as a cinematic (movie/TV) context. Not that it should be written as a script or screenplay, but that it should flow at the same pace of events or faster, especially on a recap.

[Admin Pete]

Thank you both hengest and randyb, looks like a lot of great advice and many of those are things that I have been giving a lot of thought to for my upcoming PbP game that starts in Oct. Now all I have to do is implement it. I have never run a PbP before, but pacing is important in face to face and I surmised it would be very important in PbP and something that I am trying to do well when we get started. Once the game starts you will have to let me know how you think it is going. I have given you both an exalt for your assistance.

Would love to hear from more of you.

[magremore]

I have been thinking about these things a lot myself as I would like to try running something but just can’t make the commitment right now. So, will maybe respond with more later, but a couple of things I’ve seen that really worked:

Wouter @ Smoldering Wizard’s "Metagame" thread: snw.smolderingwizard.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=89
and even better, his use of Google Drawing for Maps: snw.smolderingwizard.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=92

I’m still trying to figure out PbP, and compared to most people active in this forum I have less real world experience as well, but in general I have found that up to 3 players in PbP to work the best. 

Things that I have seen that have not worked IMO: Too much back story. The game backstory was very cool, but ref was a bit of a hard*$&% and players got so caught up in not wanting their characters to die that the game ground to halt.  Adding in too many players in medias res, changing the dynamic, which made details get missed/ignored, and caused me to not check in as much and then forget and flake out.

Other thing, in my first attempt to play PbP: when someone advertises OD&D and then you get to char gen and there are like a dozen options for how to roll, skills to choose, and what not. I mean I like tweaks to the rules and whatever, but,come on. I guess it comes down to making expectations clear. And that applies to how THINGS (not game mechanics) work, i.e., one ref may allow 10' pole ui dungeon, another may say phooey. Well, say phooey at equipment buying stage. 

[merias]

1. What are the top ten things that you expect of a PbP game? (you don't have to post ten things, I just like the way that sounds. ) Whether you play in PbP games or not, please share your thoughts with me.

• I like a reasonably paced game, not too fast, but also not glacially slow. Ref updates every 2-3 days usually gives all the players time to chime in.
• An interested ref who strives to make posting easier for the players.
• To be fun!

2. What things do you want to see in a PbP game?

Info in each post that reminds players of their current vital stats like HP and spells. Frequent maps.

3. What things do you not want to see in a PbP game.

• Long-winded info dumps.
• Games that are so fast-paced the ref ends up making actions for your PC because you can't post the five times a day the other players are posting.
• Too many players. I think 3-4 is a perfect number, any more and you risk having players feel left out.
• A game ostensibly based on a certain ruleset, but with so many fiddly changes to rules and rule additions it becomes a completely different game.
• Certain things that work well in tabletop games that don't work well in PbP because they slow it down - having the players map is a big one. Having the players roll their own dice can sometimes work if you have a small number of dedicated players. My own preference is to roll for players, however.
• Players or refs who disappear with no notice (emergencies aside, of course).

4. If you could be enticed into playing what are the deal-breakers for you and why? 

My biggest deal-breaker is a ref who changes player actions or makes up actions players did not specify, as if to adhere to a narrative.

5. What would be the sure-fired I have to play in that game things. 

Reading past games run by the same ref and seeing a well-run and fun game.

6. What are the names of the game or games that you have participated in as PbP and which ones did you like the best as PbP and why?

My first and still one of my favorite PbP games was a Labyrinth Lord game using Horror on the Hill, run by BloodAxe at the Goblinoid games' forums. Apart from BloodAxe being a great ref, the players also seemed to click in that game, and we had few if any dropouts.

More recently, I am still in two Labyrinth Lord games run by greyarea that are excellent. He makes liberal use of player stat blocks and maps in each post, making the games easy to follow.

www.unseenservant.us/forum/viewforum.php?f=472 (moved from goblinoidgames.com/community/viewforum.php?f=41)
www.unseenservant.us/forum/viewforum.php?f=471 (moved from goblinoidgames.com/community/viewforum.php?f=77)

7. What are the things that would make you pay closer attention to the game you are playing in or would like to play in?

Short, simple posts that move the action along. Roleplay or flavor text is fine in small amounts but not when it overwhelms the game.

[Admin Pete]

Thank you magremore and merias for the good advice and two more Exalts are awarded.

[True Black Raven]

Aug 30, 2017 22:09:14 GMT -5 hengest said:

1. Coherence. Fun.
2. Players having a good time, focus.
3. Endless calculations and nonsense to attempt anything.
4. Deal-breakers include "forced" participation in trivia that could be handwaved.
5. A good balance of coherent world, gonzo wackiness. A good balance of character stuff as determined by players and just interacting with the world through your avatar.
6. Only Holmes. I thought it was run fairly well - minimal trivia dumped on the players.
7. Stuff for me to look at away from the computer that will inform my posts: a map I can print out and look at on the train, a writeup from the DM about the local area and what we know about it, a set of guidelines. Whatever. Once we've played some, occasional recaps emailed or posted. Stuff to help me to play the game even away from the game, since this makes up in part for the loss of the table.

hengest I like your list. The last one makes sense, little writeups that cover a lot of the side comments that the DM makes in a live in person game.

[True Black Raven]

Aug 31, 2017 7:20:07 GMT -5 randyb said:

1. Pacing. PbP, like its cousin PBeM, is slower than tabletop as measured in realtime. Events in a PbP need to move at a faster pace than on the tabletop. Combat is a tougher issue here. Non-Combat time should pass as quickly as practical.
2. "Yes", or "yes, but..." as the default DMs answers. "No" should be rare, but used when necessary.
3. Puzzles or mysteries whose clues are buried in a wall of text or DMs infodump. The clues are obvious to the DM, but completely obscured for the players.
4. A deal-breaker for me is "some or all of the PCs are supporting cast in the DMs story". PbP/PBeM lend themselves to frustrated authors taking their friends on a guided tour of their novel.
5. Hard to say. Time is my main limiter, so there would have to be something that makes it worth committing my time. Unfortunately, I have no suggestions.
6. No PbP. Several PBeM, many of which suffered from pacing issues or one or more of #s 2-4 above.
7. Infodumps as separate documents. Game posts need to be event-driven. Think cinematic scenes, not literary chapters.

Overall, while PbP is a textual medium, it needs to be treated as a cinematic (movie/TV) context. Not that it should be written as a script or screenplay, but that it should flow at the same pace of events or faster, especially on a recap.

randyb

3. Those things work a lot better in alive in person game, in a pbp you would have to do a lot of extra emphasis to make those things work.

7. I think this is a great idea, although IMO I would be one of the few players that would actually read those documents.

[True Black Raven]

Sept 1, 2017 7:06:07 GMT -5 magremore said:

I have been thinking about these things a lot myself as I would like to try running something but just can’t make the commitment right now. So, will maybe respond with more later, but a couple of things I’ve seen that really worked:

Wouter @ Smoldering Wizard’s "Metagame" thread: snw.smolderingwizard.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=89
and even better, his use of Google Drawing for Maps: snw.smolderingwizard.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=92

I’m still trying to figure out PbP, and compared to most people active in this forum I have less real world experience as well, but in general I have found that up to 3 players in PbP to work the best. 

Things that I have seen that have not worked IMO: Too much back story. The game backstory was very cool, but ref was a bit of a hard*$&% and players got so caught up in not wanting their characters to die that the game ground to halt.  Adding in too many players in medias res, changing the dynamic, which made details get missed/ignored, and caused me to not check in as much and then forget and flake out.

Other thing, in my first attempt to play PbP: when someone advertises OD&D and then you get to char gen and there are like a dozen options for how to roll, skills to choose, and what not. I mean I like tweaks to the rules and whatever, but,come on. I guess it comes down to making expectations clear. And that applies to how THINGS (not game mechanics) work, i.e., one ref may allow 10' pole ui dungeon, another may say phooey. Well, say phooey at equipment buying stage. 

magremore, those are good links, but I am not sure I could pull off creating maps like that.

Re your last point, how would you feel about the DM just offering a choice of pregens?

[True Black Raven]

Sept 1, 2017 12:20:28 GMT -5 merias said:

1. What are the top ten things that you expect of a PbP game? (you don't have to post ten things, I just like the way that sounds. ) Whether you play in PbP games or not, please share your thoughts with me.

• I like a reasonably paced game, not too fast, but also not glacially slow. Ref updates every 2-3 days usually gives all the players time to chime in.
• An interested ref who strives to make posting easier for the players.
• To be fun!

2. What things do you want to see in a PbP game?

Info in each post that reminds players of their current vital stats like HP and spells. Frequent maps.

3. What things do you not want to see in a PbP game.

• Long-winded info dumps.
• Games that are so fast-paced the ref ends up making actions for your PC because you can't post the five times a day the other players are posting.
• Too many players. I think 3-4 is a perfect number, any more and you risk having players feel left out.
• A game ostensibly based on a certain ruleset, but with so many fiddly changes to rules and rule additions it becomes a completely different game.
• Certain things that work well in tabletop games that don't work well in PbP because they slow it down - having the players map is a big one. Having the players roll their own dice can sometimes work if you have a small number of dedicated players. My own preference is to roll for players, however.
• Players or refs who disappear with no notice (emergencies aside, of course).

4. If you could be enticed into playing what are the deal-breakers for you and why? 

My biggest deal-breaker is a ref who changes player actions or makes up actions players did not specify, as if to adhere to a narrative.

5. What would be the sure-fired I have to play in that game things. 

Reading past games run by the same ref and seeing a well-run and fun game.

6. What are the names of the game or games that you have participated in as PbP and which ones did you like the best as PbP and why?

My first and still one of my favorite PbP games was a Labyrinth Lord game using Horror on the Hill, run by BloodAxe at the Goblinoid games' forums. Apart from BloodAxe being a great ref, the players also seemed to click in that game, and we had few if any dropouts.

More recently, I am still in two Labyrinth Lord games run by greyarea that are excellent. He makes liberal use of player stat blocks and maps in each post, making the games easy to follow.

www.unseenservant.us/forum/viewforum.php?f=472 (moved from goblinoidgames.com/community/viewforum.php?f=41)
www.unseenservant.us/forum/viewforum.php?f=471 (moved from goblinoidgames.com/community/viewforum.php?f=77)

7. What are the things that would make you pay closer attention to the game you are playing in or would like to play in?

Short, simple posts that move the action along. Roleplay or flavor text is fine in small amounts but not when it overwhelms the game.

merias I like this comment

4. If you could be enticed into playing what are the deal-breakers for you and why?

My biggest deal-breaker is a ref who changes player actions or makes up actions players did not specify, as if to adhere to a narrative.

I really agree with that, that would be time to walk away if that starts happening.

[True Black Raven]

Aug 30, 2017 18:09:58 GMT -5 Admin Pete said:

1. What are the top ten things that you expect of a PbP game?

1. That the game most at a decent speed, a post from everyone at least 3 times a week, every other day is good.

2. Consistency from the DM with his rulings.

3. Consistency from the other players, show up, post and keep up. If you can't do that either drop out or give permission for others to run your character. With the latter, it is good to give some brief guidelines to help with what you character does.

4. No one ghosts the game, that is just inexcusable unless we find out you died or where in a coma or something equally serious.

5. A DM that knows what stuff can be hand waved to move the game along coupled with good instincts.

6. Fun, fun, fun

7. Make the house rules clear up front.

8. My personal preference is pre-gens

9. Post things that would be handouts in a live in person game, such as, equipment lists, how money works, how encumbrance works, and stuff that we need to know up front.

10. Post of maps on a regular basis, from the layout of the tavern to each days travel, to the dungeon as it is revealed.

Aug 30, 2017 18:09:58 GMT -5 Admin Pete said:

2. What things do you want to see in a PbP game?

I want to see a fun adventure with a lot of chances to take risks or to gain some really cool stuff.

Verbal interactions between PCs and NPCs handled efficiently by the DM and the Players. So that the interaction moves and does not lag.

Aug 30, 2017 18:09:58 GMT -5 Admin Pete said:

3. What things do you not want to see in a PbP game.

I do not want to see a trace of a railroad, I do not want to see my choices nerfed or ignored.

I want the players to come together and be cooperative with each other, no stupid, hesitant or cowardly play. No dithering or decision impaired play.

Aug 30, 2017 18:09:58 GMT -5 Admin Pete said:

4. If you could be enticed into playing what are the deal-breakers for you and why?

Railroads

Uncooperative players

Players with an attitude

Players that want to be treated "special"

Aug 30, 2017 18:09:58 GMT -5 Admin Pete said:

5. What would be the sure-fired I have to play in that game things.

A delve into a mega-dungeon that looks like something I would do.

Aug 30, 2017 18:09:58 GMT -5 Admin Pete said:

6. What are the names of the game or games that you have participated in as PbP and which ones did you like the best as PbP and why?

I have not played in a PbP.

Aug 30, 2017 18:09:58 GMT -5 Admin Pete said:

7. What are the things that would make you pay closer attention to the game you are playing in or would like to play in?

A DM that is clear, concise and I don't have to get help to decipher his posts.

[hengest]

What do you all want to see in a PbP most? What is the single most fun thing about a PbP, or most potentially fun thing to you?

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

Aug 30, 2017 18:09:58 GMT -5 Admin Pete said:

1. What are the top ten things that you expect of a PbP game? (you don't have to post ten things, I just like the way that sounds. ) Whether you play in PbP games or not, please share your thoughts with me.

2. What things do you want to see in a PbP game?

3. What things do you not want to see in a PbP game.

4. If you could be enticed into playing what are the deal-breakers for you and why?

5. What would be the sure-fired I have to play in that game things.

6. What are the names of the game or games that you have participated in as PbP and which ones did you like the best as PbP and why?

7. What are the things that would make you pay closer attention to the game you are playing in or would like to play in?

I missed this thread when it was originally posted so here are my answers.

1.  No top ten from me because I am just now playing in my third PbP game.  At the time I had never played in one.  After having played in my first PbP game - the awesome Sunflower game by hengest - I can now answer the rest of the questions.

2. Consistency, reasonable pace, and more options than combat.

3. Nothing but combat after combat.

4. Murder hobo style play. ""That one player" that has to make everything into slapstick comedy; HATE IT.  There are games where it has its' place but it's NOT every scene of every game.  

5. Good experience with a previous PbP by the same referee or a chance to play a game I've always wanted to play.

6. I played in the first Sunflower game by Hengest.  I am currently playing in the OD&D 50th anniversary game by The Perilous Dreamer and the Sunflower sequel by hengest.

7. A little bit of world lore, small info dumps scattered here and there, more nuanced than just combat.

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

Mar 23, 2024 15:05:28 GMT -5 hengest said:

What do you all want to see in a PbP most? What is the single most fun thing about a PbP, or most potentially fun thing to you?

Consistency and fun!

This might be a corny answer to some of you, but the most fun in a PbP game for me is the fact that I get to be a player.  In my old gaming group, I was ALMOST ALWAYS the Referee.  I might get a break now and then, but it eventually turned into me being the Referee next.  This isn't an anti-Referee post at all.  I enjoy doing that stuff.  It's just nice to be able to participate rather than being the driving creative force behind everything for a change. 

[hengest]

Mar 24, 2024 9:58:11 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

Mar 23, 2024 15:05:28 GMT -5 hengest said:

What do you all want to see in a PbP most? What is the single most fun thing about a PbP, or most potentially fun thing to you?

Consistency and fun!

This might be a corny answer to some of you, but the most fun in a PbP game for me is the fact that I get to be a player.  In my old gaming group, I was ALMOST ALWAYS the Referee.  I might get a break now and then, but it eventually turned into me being the Referee next.  This isn't an anti-Referee post at all.  I enjoy doing that stuff.  It's just nice to be able to participate rather than being the driving creative force behind everything for a change. 

Agreed! I'm hoping I can get some synergy, or at least complementary perspectives, by being a player and a ref at the same time for a change!

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

Mar 24, 2024 10:10:11 GMT -5 hengest said:

Mar 24, 2024 9:58:11 GMT -5 The Semi-Retired Gamer said:

Consistency and fun!

This might be a corny answer to some of you, but the most fun in a PbP game for me is the fact that I get to be a player.  In my old gaming group, I was ALMOST ALWAYS the Referee.  I might get a break now and then, but it eventually turned into me being the Referee next.  This isn't an anti-Referee post at all.  I enjoy doing that stuff.  It's just nice to be able to participate rather than being the driving creative force behind everything for a change. 

Agreed! I'm hoping I can get some synergy, or at least complementary perspectives, by being a player and a ref at the same time for a change!

Great idea!

[hengest]

Imagine if all the time people spent scrolling on their phones was spent instead on PbP games.

[The Semi-Retired Gamer]

Mar 24, 2024 10:19:14 GMT -5 hengest said:

Imagine if all the time people spent scrolling on their phones was spent instead on PbP games.

That would be so cool!  Funny story.  We had a lull in the action at work when the original Sunflower game was still on.  I pulled out my phone and was making a post.  One of the guys said, "You got work to do.  Quit texting."  I replied, "Hey, this is D&D.".  He said, "Never mind.  Continue on.".