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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Aug 8, 2017 10:12:50 GMT -5
Seven Voyages of Zylarthen written by Oakes Spalding and subtitled Rules for Original Style Sword and Sorcery Campaigns Playable with Paper and Pencil and Imagination.
Copyright 2014
Published as four booklets
Volume 1 Characters & Combat
Volume 2 Book of Monsters
Volume 3 Book of Magic
Volume 4 The Campaign
The tone is set early in the correct use of the term "fantasy adventure game" in lieu of "role-playing game." To go beyond this the really correct term IMO would be Fantasy/Science Fantasy Adventure Role-playing Game.
Under Optional I like his suggestions for a minor number of props, I have found that children love props.
Early on here you find out that he does not include Clerics. I find that usage to be interesting, even though I don't do that for the campaign. We have over the years had adventuring parties that did not include one of the classes or was composed of only one class. All of those variations are IMO fun to play. Balance is a dirty word IMO.
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Aug 8, 2017 10:14:30 GMT -5
There is language every so often, that makes plain things that IMO were part and parcel of the original game, though not spelled out.
The three base classes are Fighting-Men, Magic-Users and Thieves. In addition he includes Dwarves, Elves and Halfings(sic) as special classes.
I really like the emphasis placed on in regards to thieves sneaking around.
The Luck item for thieves could have some interesting ramifications, since there is no guarantee that it will help, but players will want to rely on it and take a risk they might otherwise not take.
I also like not allowing thieves the chance of using magical scrolls until they reach 10th level.
He retains the requirement for elves to operate as one or the other in a single adventure (fighting-man or magic-user). I don't do that; elves may cast a spell, switch to their bow and then go into melee with a sword. The either/or thing that AFAIK everyone does is immersion breaking for me.
I like his take on alignment, it is still important in many ways, but is downplayed and is mostly not in the foreground.
His take on Religion is I think a very fun thing.
There is IMO a healthy emphasis of language, which too many IMO just hand wave and ignore.
I like this what is does is make clear that this game is not built around the post-old school murder-hobo trope that some misguided fools run around claiming is old school. When it really arose is when those with no grounding in fantasy got hold of the game.
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Aug 8, 2017 10:15:17 GMT -5
BTW I would like to point out that the art in this game is excellent.
He has an optional strength rule for female characters, that some might like to take, but many will be offended by even though it is an optional rule and labeled as such.
His prime requisite, secondary and tertiary abilities rule to me is just unnecessary complication and go with prime requisite is enough. Some things have to be added to clones to avoid just being a copy which is not permitted. Things like this can easily be dropped and ignored.
His explanations are clear, but IMO a real attempt to keep the flavor of the original game was achived.
I also like his rule harking back to Arneson, about treasure granting experience when it is spent and not when it is hoarded.
His money system is based on Silver. Interesting rule "making change" is illegal for all except for officially approved money-changers. When you buy you always round up unless you have the needed small coins to pay the exact price. I like this, you can't just ignore everything that is not gold.
Hirelings and treasure has an interesting rule that is to prevent players from using the hirelings money as their characters money.
Anyone who wants a basic equipment list in silver, right here it is in volume one. A number of items are added, such as glue, deadly nightshade, shovel, sling just to name a few.
Also included is a price list for buildings ranging from a cottage to a large fort, keep or castle.
A list of men-at-arms and other hirelings.
Bear in mind that you can expand on any of this stuff if you wish.
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Aug 8, 2017 10:15:47 GMT -5
I laughed when I read the list of level names, particulary for the Magic-Users and Thieves.
The attack matrix I for men vs men or monsters (melee) has weapon class vs armor class, it is IMO quite elegant. A similar matrix is provided for missle weapons with each one and its range listed.
He also provides a monsters attacking matrix with sample monsters listed to make the matrix clearer.
There is a provided expanded turning undead table which is quite useful. Any character may attempt to turn undead by presenting a proper holy symbol. I really love this usage.
He makes the distinction between the full turn (10 minutes) and the melee turn (10 seconds).
Combat and Optional Combat rules are provided and they are clearly explained. You can easily pick and chose the options you want or of course others that you come up with yourself.
An attack matrix for fire and oil is provided and easily added to.
There is a rule and a table for what happens at zero hitpoints for PCs. IMO it is quite useful and I have been thinking of trying it out. It ranges from instant death to down for one melee turn then gets back up and fights and a whole range of options in between.
This closes my comments on Book 1.
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Post by oakesspalding on Aug 8, 2017 11:31:47 GMT -5
Wow! Thanks! Great observations! I've never seen many of them before. I was hoping someone would mention the emphasis on languages.
By "laughed" at the level names, do you mean in a good way or bad way or both? Don't be afraid to say. I like many of them but think a few are potentially a bit silly or awkward. My dictionary (the OED) was only so large...
As part of putting together the first supplement - which will take the spells through 1976 - I'm revising a few things for a complete (in one PDF) E-version. I hope it doesn't annoy Zylarthen purists. Among other things, I'm going back to a more explicit ten rounds in a ten minute turn mechanic as opposed to the somewhat more vague or elastic conception that I originally put forward. It doesn't mean that a round lasts exactly one minute (which makes the length of combat and speed of movement problematic from the point of view of realism), only that there are, from the point of view of game play, ten of them in a turn, if that makes sense. I'm doing this primarily to clarify how spells work and what their duration is.
The quasi-elastic turn vs. "melee turn" thing was my attempt to differentiate it from AD&D, but after rereading and pondering the original texts, I think the more fixed AD&D conception was right there from the beginning, if not explained as clearly as it could have been. "Melee turn" seems to be a usage that sort of almost randomly popped up a few times in Greyhawk and then disappeared.
As for the women-strength thing, I didn't want female (or male) players to feel constrained or offended in any way, which is the primary reason I made the rule optional. I thought it created a fun variant, but only for those who wanted it. I might include a companion optional rule for males-wisdom - males roll only two dice for wisdom but get a +1 on everything else. Or maybe males OR females could select either option. Unless the whole thing opens up a potential can of worms that's better left unopened. In which case I might just chuck the original optional rule. If it makes too many people think of the annoyingly picky AD&D limitations on female strength (with no positive trade-offs), perhaps it's better to leave it out.
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Aug 8, 2017 12:23:07 GMT -5
Wow! Thanks! Great observations! I've never seen many of them before. I was hoping someone would mention the emphasis on languages. Over at the RPGsite I mentioned a number of retro-clones (or whatever the right name is) that I am fond of a number of games, I don't play them, but I find inspiration in them. Another poster picked out three _ Seven Voyages of Zylarthen, Champions of Zed and Treasure Hunters - and suggested I talk about them since no one had on that forum. So I started with Voyages of Zylarthen first. By "laughed" at the level names, do you mean in a good way or bad way or both? Don't be afraid to say. I like many of them but think a few are potentially a bit silly or awkward. My dictionary (the OED) was only so large... I think names I probably can't pronounce are funny, so a good way. As part of putting together the first supplement - which will take the spells through 1976 - I'm revising a few things for a complete (in one PDF) E-version. I hope it doesn't annoy Zylarthen purists. Among other things, I'm going back to a more explicit ten rounds in a ten minute turn mechanic as opposed to the somewhat more vague or elastic conception that I originally put forward. It doesn't mean that a round lasts exactly one minute (which makes the length of combat and speed of movement problematic from the point of view of realism), only that there are, from the point of view of game play, ten of them in a turn, if that makes sense. I'm doing this primarily to clarify how spells work and what their duration is. As long as the original version is available, supplement are just that supplements and optional. I thought what you did lent clarity to melee. The quasi-elastic turn vs. "melee turn" thing was my attempt to differentiate it from AD&D, but after rereading and pondering the original texts, I think the more fixed AD&D conception was right there from the beginning, if not explained as clearly as it could have been. "Melee turn" seems to be a usage that sort of almost randomly popped up a few times in Greyhawk and then disappeared. I like the quasi-elastic turn. As for the women-strength thing, I didn't want female (or male) players to feel constrained or offended in any way, which is the primary reason I made the rule optional. I thought it created a fun variant, but only for those who wanted it. I might include a companion optional rule for males-wisdom - males roll only two dice for wisdom but get a +1 on everything else. Or maybe males OR females could select either option. Unless the whole thing opens up a potential can of worms that's better left unopened. In which case I might just chuck the original optional rule. If it makes too many people think of the annoyingly picky AD&D limitations on female strength (with no positive trade-offs), perhaps it's better to leave it out. Add the additional option and keep the first one. Beyond that it can be used/house-ruled/or ignored. BTW the full list I mentioned was this |
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Post by oakesspalding on Aug 8, 2017 14:05:55 GMT -5
Ha! I love the reply to your review:
"Thank you for this thread! I love hearing about obscure OSR stuff."
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Aug 8, 2017 14:20:16 GMT -5
Ha! I love the reply to your review: "Thank you for this thread! I love hearing about obscure OSR stuff." I thought that was pretty funny too, considering the opinion the RPGsite has of itself. Not that all forums don't have that opinion of themselves. If you didn't think you were the best or at least one of the best, why would you do it? Of course IMO this one is the best! Hey PD, do I get brownie points for that? NO!!!  I didn't think so.  I posted these initial posts as part of of the review on my blog. I didn't realize it had been that long since I posted there. |
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Aug 8, 2017 14:29:51 GMT -5
Ha! I love the reply to your review: "Thank you for this thread! I love hearing about obscure OSR stuff." I replied |
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Post by ripx187 on Aug 8, 2017 16:26:07 GMT -5
Awesome thread. Have an Exalt, guys.
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Post by scottanderson on Aug 8, 2017 19:45:31 GMT -5
Thank you for this. Everyone has different parts of the great game that they take to heart, that they emphasize, that they build upon. The elements about languages, money, and the nature of the gods in SVZ are a delight.
The art is gentle and romantic. It's fantasy, not fantasy horror. It feels very Christian to me but I can't tell why. Ending one of the books, I can't remember which, cswith the etching of the baby inspires me to think of protection, the sanctity of life, new beginnings and the prospect of a bright future.
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Aug 9, 2017 8:15:55 GMT -5
Awesome thread. Have an Exalt, guys. Thanks! |
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Aug 9, 2017 8:16:22 GMT -5
Thank you for this. Everyone has different parts of the great game that they take to heart, that they emphasize, that they build upon. The elements about languages, money, and the nature of the gods in SVZ are a delight. The art is gentle and romantic. It's fantasy, not fantasy horror. It feels very Christian to me but I can't tell why. Ending one of the books, I can't remember which, cswith the etching of the baby inspires me to think of protection, the sanctity of life, new beginnings and the prospect of a bright future. I will be doing Treasure Hunters too. |
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Aug 9, 2017 8:17:07 GMT -5
Volume 2 Book of Monsters kicks off with a fantastic illustration of a hydra by John Dickson Batten. Love this artwork.
Initially he lets us know that most of the monsters we "have come to know, 'love' or in a few cases merely wonder about" are present. Some of them are given a twists and to me that enhances this book way more than an exact copy would.
He tries to go back to the original conception of Armor Class. I could repeat hear how he defines that, but I won't, you should check it out yourself. Also he says that he rejects the "creeping 'naturalism' of later interpretations" and I completely approve of this approach.
He also ties this in with Volume 1 and the approach to language and religion. I like this a lot.
I enjoyed the way that he "fleshes" out Androids with both description and stats. Also he provides equipment they might possess. I should note here that what he has done in this book should encourage everyone to create (over time, not in one sitting, unless of course you are capable of doing that) your own version of things. Keep things fresh for your players, make your monsters malleable over time and not static.
Apts and other Barsoom critters get stats and descriptions.
Mundane animals also get descriptions and stats, making this a very good introductory versions for newbies. Descriptions are clear and short. Dinosaurs also get stats and description, this game is ready to go. Again don't limit yourself to just the printed page, add your own stuff. Other prehistoric animals are included.
Cyborgs get a similar treatment to that given Androids.
Evil High Priests or Priestessess get a great writeup. Worth reading just for this IMO. Along with Evil Lords and other Evil Men (such as Evil Magic-Users). Evil (not High) Priests are included too. Great section to help a beginner who might not know where to start.
A number of normal insects are provided, some harmless, but with side effects to the PCs in interesting ways.
Some gods and goddesses are provided, he did look at all the supplements.
Golems are also "fleshed" out in interesting ways.
A writeup on half-elves should prove useful to the many who like to run half-elves in their game. I think his take on them should be fun for all in a campaign.
I could keep going and go into more detail as well, but I will not except to encourage you to check it out, this is well done.
Here ends my comments on book 2.
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Aug 9, 2017 9:02:46 GMT -5
Now for Volume 3 Book of Magic
Magic Spells, he lists 20 spells for each level 1-6, followed by descriptions of each spell. Since this game has no cleric, some of the clerical spells are ported over for magic-users.
The spell descriptions are aside from Charm Person, mostly brief and succint. The extra detail on Charm Person is well used.
I like the write up on Magic Books and shortly thereafter he has a bit of blank space for Referee Notes which I think most refs should really appreciate.
This is followed by an Evil High Priest and a separate High Priest Spell Table. Each has five spells for levels 1-3 and seven spells for levels 4-6. Followed by a Witch Spell Table with 10 spells for all 6 levels. Spells not previously described are described in this section.
Next we move to Maps/Magic Determination. There are no real surprises in the items listed, though there are some interesting little twists in the descriptions. Some descriptions have been made more clear and others have clarified who can or can't use them.
Interesting variations of some items are provided.
The Fabricating Magic Items goes into quite a bit of details about the cost and time of creating new magic items with an extensive lists for each magic item type. Enough information is provided to make it easy to extend to things that are not listed. This should inspire you to create unique items.
I could have said a whole lot more, but I really don't want to draw the veil away.
This ends my comments on Book 3.
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Post by oakesspalding on Aug 9, 2017 10:25:15 GMT -5
Thanks for another great review! I really appreciate you saying that one of the chief values of the book is in inspiring people to create or "flesh out" things for themselves. This may strike you as an odd thing for me to say, but I don't think of myself as a particularly original or imaginative person when it comes to gaming, at least relative to others. I'm always reading stuff in games or blogs where I say to myself, "that's so cool, I would never have thought of that." But the point is, if you sit down with a simple goal, say, to stat and describe a list of giant flying insects or whatever, it's easier than you might think. You don't have to imagine it all at once; but it comes out as part of the process in a way that's similar to how I'm told many novelists create their stories. This might be obvious to many readers of this board, though perhaps not as much to new players. I'm a quasi-veteran player, but I had to relearn it. I'm not trying to be falsely humble. I'm very happy with how Zylarthen turned out - especially the monster book with some of those "original" monsters. But I think part of the lesson really is if I could do it - come up with semi-new glosses on this sort of thing - anyone can. As for the monster scheme as a whole, I wrote about it here and here. The idea was to cover EVERY monster that appeared in the "official" materials through the Fall of 1975 - essentially Chainmail, the three little brown books, Greyhawk and the first few issues of Strategic Review magazine - even if they were only mentioned in passing (or in the case of Amazons and Barbarians, merely appeared in an illustration). The neat thing is that that allowed me to come up with a fair amount of "new" creatures, many of which you mention. And that was of course a big part of the fun. But everything has some link to the original texts - for example, those funny harmless/annoying insects were what I imagined "Giant Flyers" to be in the flying rules section of The Underworld and Wilderness Adventures. For the sheer mischief of it, I did make one exception, and that was to include Troglodytes, which as far as I know, only made their first appearance in AD&D. But it literally is the only exception. I did have one advantage that Gygax and Arneson didn't have. When the original game came out in 1974, all of the Burroughs Martian series was still in copyright. But now, the first four or five (or something like that) are not. In the list of Martian equipment I used only the stuff in those first books, though I may have re-skinned one or two things from the others. I guess it worked out. I hear the Estate is pretty litigious, but I haven't received a phone call yet. As for the gods, while I think Gods, Demigods and Heroes is hugely underrated, I don't think I made much use of it. It didn't have quite the information that I wanted, and I didn't think it would be very difficult to go back to the original sources in myth or fiction, especially when all that was needed was a short paragraph of information. I think 50% of the gods are "new" in that sense that they didn't even appear in Gods. Although, maybe it's only 25%. I can't remember. If people want more inspiration, I wrote a piece on the Batten art here. Original art is great, of course, but if you don't have the talent or the connections or the money, there's a lot of fine stuff in the public domain. But I think the trick is going beyond a Google search, for example, into the online public domain holdings of libraries, and then being willing to edit a bit if possible. When my blog went dormant for a year or so, this post remained popular. I'd like to think it was hits from artists (or, even better, non-artists) looking for a bit of inspiration. Once again, the lesson: if I (non-artist) can do it, anyone can. |
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Aug 9, 2017 10:28:14 GMT -5
Continuing with Volume 4 The Campaign
The first thing that he does right off the bat is dispel the "myth" promoted by the anti-DIY, anti-MIY (Do It Yourself, Make It Yourself) gatekeeper lunatics. You do not have to create an entire mapped out world with a full-blown history, mythology, culture or more fully designed up front.
SIDE NOTE: Promotion of that "myth" is why there is a fanatical cult surrounding the religion of adventure modules. Is it wrong to use an adventure module, no it is not. Do adventure module tend to be railroads and teach that as a play style, yes they do. So if you really do not have the time to do what is spelled out in Zylarthen, then don't use one adventure module, go grab 10 or 20 (100's are out there free) rip them up a little, do a little interconnecting and destroy the railroad and give your players options.
Back to the review
There are strong parallels as he points out to campaign world building. Whether you are strapped for time or have lots of it, you can create as you go, you don't have to spend years up front, anyone can create there own campaign world on the go as they play.
The first section covers standard dungeon building with a host of little extras as he discusses building and designing the dungeon, addiing monsters and adding treasure. A multitude of useful tables to aid you with these things are provided.
I understand that supplements are planned and in progress. I would hope that one of them would go more in depth about how to design unique, interesting dungeons, that provides continual surprises for the players. He provided a lot, but it just scratches the surface of what is possible.
The next topic covered is the wilderness saying
This "The wilderness is what connects these features, but it is also, so to speak, the nourishing soil that many of them may grow out of without the direct predesign of the referee." can't be emphazied too much IMO.
Section titled Alternate Wilderness Movement with tables.
Wilderness Wandering Monsters, the table includes 16 different terrain types, the chance of being lost using a d6 and the chance of encountering a monster using a d20. Check once per day to see if you are "lost." Wandering Monsters checked twice per day. Other issues are discussed. He goes into encounter distance and suprise considerations and a number of other issues. Then you get into a Wilderness Encounter Tables and sub-Tables. Useful, useful, useful.
Advice is given on "How to create a 'World' in under an hour" using the fantasy cartography progam Hexographer by Inkwell ideas. The mapping advice I think is quite good and would help for ideas for handdrawn maps. I have not used the program and can't speak to that. Overall a lot of good general and specific advice for map making.
There is a brief bit of advice on Finishing Touches that is well advised.
He spends a fair amount of time on the subject of monster languages and as part of that he created a list of monsters sorted by intelligence. Low, Cunning, Average, High and Genius. I would add feel free to switch this up in ways that make sense for your campaign.
There are tons of languages, I like this one
Treasure classes and distribution and then a an Appendix: Sources and Suggestions for Further Reading specific to each of all four volumes.
Thus ends my comments on this Book 4 and on this game.
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Aug 9, 2017 10:36:25 GMT -5
Glad you are liking the reveiw, I just posted the last section immediately above.
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Post by oakesspalding on Aug 9, 2017 10:57:44 GMT -5
Thank you for this. Everyone has different parts of the great game that they take to heart, that they emphasize, that they build upon. The elements about languages, money, and the nature of the gods in SVZ are a delight. The art is gentle and romantic. It's fantasy, not fantasy horror. It feels very Christian to me but I can't tell why. Ending one of the books, I can't remember which, cswith the etching of the baby inspires me to think of protection, the sanctity of life, new beginnings and the prospect of a bright future. Thanks for that, Scott. Yeah, I wanted to make it "Christian-friendly" (for my children and hopefully other Christian families who might be have been turned-off by those stories - true or not - about demons and the occult in D&D) without in any way making it a Christian game. I hope I don't offend anyone here, but I think that's often the kiss of death for Christians as much as anyone else. See, in my totally opinionated opinion, Christian music. Plus I felt the fairytale vibe, so to speak, was a niche that hadn't really been filled by other games, even though I thought it was strongly present in the three little brown books with its witches casting charms and so on. And I think that, after a bit, the Batten art, much of which I had already selected, really started to inform the writing. As I think you know, all of it is from work he did for late 19th and early 20th century children's fairytale books. Not fantasy horror. No. Though as we all know, there's plenty of frightening stuff in fairy tales. I'm not sure that children would be terrorized by, say, Lovecraft as much as they might just be bored. Rumpelstiltskin on the other hand - the name itself still creeps me out. The little girl hugging the dog. It's at the end of Book of Monsters, along with one of the few subtle/unsubtle references to Christ in the text. I just thought the reader needed a bit of hope after all of those claws, tentacles, slimes and evil spells. Not that there's anything wrong with it. |
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Post by Crimhthan The Great on Aug 10, 2017 9:27:04 GMT -5
Thank you for this. Everyone has different parts of the great game that they take to heart, that they emphasize, that they build upon. The elements about languages, money, and the nature of the gods in SVZ are a delight. The art is gentle and romantic. It's fantasy, not fantasy horror. It feels very Christian to me but I can't tell why. Ending one of the books, I can't remember which, cswith the etching of the baby inspires me to think of protection, the sanctity of life, new beginnings and the prospect of a bright future. Thanks for that, Scott. Yeah, I wanted to make it "Christian-friendly" (for my children and hopefully other Christian families who might be have been turned-off by those stories - true or not - about demons and the occult in D&D) without in any way making it a Christian game. I hope I don't offend anyone here, but I think that's often the kiss of death for Christians as much as anyone else. See, in my totally opinionated opinion, Christian music. Plus I felt the fairytale vibe, so to speak, was a niche that hadn't really been filled by other games, even though I thought it was strongly present in the three little brown books with its witches casting charms and so on. And I think that, after a bit, the Batten art, much of which I had already selected, really started to inform the writing. As I think you know, all of it is from work he did for late 19th and early 20th century children's fairytale books. Not fantasy horror. No. Though as we all know, there's plenty of frightening stuff in fairy tales. I'm not sure that children would be terrorized by, say, Lovecraft as much as they might just be bored. Rumpelstiltskin on the other hand - the name itself still creeps me out. The little girl hugging the dog. It's at the end of Book of Monsters, along with one of the few subtle/unsubtle references to Christ in the text. I just thought the reader needed a bit of hope after all of those claws, tentacles, slimes and evil spells. Not that there's anything wrong with it. Great post and Rumpelstiltskin should creep you out! I'd worry about your otherwise. |
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Post by Hexenritter Verlag on Feb 22, 2018 16:10:22 GMT -5
Looks like I'll be buying these in print & the consolidated e-version in the near future, they sound awesome.
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I didn't think so. 
Seriously, I hope this proves useful to you and others. The author let me know that he was wondering if anyone would notice the emphasis that he placed on knowing languages. Little subtle things like that, if a referee uses them, can shape the campaign, little things can be quite important. That is why a through knowledge of the rules by the ref is important because, then you have a good idea about how tinkering will affect the game and it also informs your on-the-fly rulings and helps make them quick and compatible with the vibe of your game. This is not obscure OSR stuff IMO, but YMMV. Hopefully when I complete this for each of these, they will all be less obscure, depending on whether this thread gets read or not. 
