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Post by True Black Raven on Mar 13, 2018 11:57:48 GMT -5
Armeson hate has become proverbial. Really? I've seen Arneson ignorance mostly, and some "how much did Dave Arneson do," and Tim Kask never liked Dave but he's just one guy. Where does this happen? I have an axe. I have read dogpiles over at a certain forum that insists that Dave Arneson should be given zero credit for D&D and that he has never done anything worth being remembered. IMO that is hate, and in yours it is ignorance. We disagree.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2018 14:25:54 GMT -5
Huh. Never seen that, but that doesn't mean I disbelieve you.
That would indeed qualify as hate as opposed to "who is Dave Arneson." Don't bother telling me which forum, I really don't want to know.
Though I remember somebody saying something like that somewhere, and my response was along the lines of "you are so wrong that the light from right will not reach you for a billion years."
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Post by robertsconley on Mar 14, 2018 12:46:59 GMT -5
When people are flinging gobs of money at you for cans of Spam, it's hard to convince yourself that you should be telling them to go make their own dinners. Having run businesses myself, one of the factors that goes into whether you do A versus B is what will produce the most for the time I spend in doing it. Which is why so many business that start out as a labor of love seem to "sell out" once they grow beyond a certain point. There is a point where unless you really smart and careful that it hard to justify doing anything other than will keep people employed and the company humming along. Then of course when simple greed added to the mix we see all the different permutations of the story as far as running a company goes. Regardless of what happened when, the fact is that TSR was comprised of people with limited time and limited budgets so something would have gotten shortchanged even with the best of intentions. The key thing to remember that today thanks to the widespread use of open content and advances of digital content that not true anymore. By making it clear what content is out there that can be shared, by driving publication and distribution to stupidly low levels then it is that much easier share whatever they are passionate about for as long as they are passionate about it. Whether it is professional level project, passing around a text file, or just making post on this forum. The result there is now many way of sharing, at variety of different levels of involvement. So what a segment of the OSR is Talmudic in their obsession over the wording of a specific edition? So what that Wizard munged up the time-line. The reality people who are passionate about this issue (or anything else about tabletop roleplaying) have the mean to get their take out there. It is as big of a sea-change as the introduction of the machine gun, the tank, or smart weapons in wafare. Totally re-writes of how hobby and industry works.
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Post by secretsofblackmoor on Nov 11, 2018 11:23:22 GMT -5
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Post by Admin Pete on Nov 11, 2018 21:42:46 GMT -5
IMO it is pretty obvious that Arneson is running an RPG.
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Post by Admin Pete on Apr 17, 2019 10:08:47 GMT -5
Bummer, all of these links are dead!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post by secretsofblackmoor on May 20, 2019 23:15:47 GMT -5
Grrr...
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on May 21, 2019 17:05:12 GMT -5
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Post by malchor on Aug 10, 2019 16:53:06 GMT -5
Um, no. We played with "one attack per level at 1 HD or less creatures" since day 1. Of course I learned to play from Gary and Rob, and, for that matter, I had been playing CHAINMAIL for almost two years. As Michael noted (sort of??), no Chainmail rules were used in the playtests of OD&D. The "alternative" combat system WAS the system used in the playtests; the rest is sales posturing by Gary to wean miniature Chainmail players to D&D. I even have a story regarding that coming up in my next book (nearing being finished in a few months) that involved Robilar against a swarm of Orcs and in Castle Greyhawk. A question here. Please bear with me as try to frame this question correctly. Well before the "troubles," the first person to connect Dave's original FRP game system to Chainmail in print was Gary, and this, of course, happening only after publication of OD&D. Was the OD&D origin story about the use of Chainmail by Dave put forth by Gary an attempt to strengthen the connection between OD&D and Chainmail to help ease miniature Chainmail players to D&D by way of said origin story? If so, did this usage then morph into general marketing and narrative? Also, curios. Besides bridging over earlier Chainmail players to D&D, was there also a hope to cross-sell Chainmail copies to new players? Many thanks in advance.
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Aug 11, 2019 19:48:47 GMT -5
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Post by The Perilous Dreamer on Aug 11, 2019 22:30:07 GMT -5
As Michael noted (sort of??), no Chainmail rules were used in the playtests of OD&D. The "alternative" combat system WAS the system used in the playtests; the rest is sales posturing by Gary to wean miniature Chainmail players to D&D. I even have a story regarding that coming up in my next book (nearing being finished in a few months) that involved Robilar against a swarm of Orcs and in Castle Greyhawk. A question here. Please bear with me as try to frame this question correctly. Well before the "troubles," the first person to connect Dave's original FRP game system to Chainmail in print was Gary, and this, of course, happening only after publication of OD&D. Was the OD&D origin story about the use of Chainmail by Dave put forth by Gary an attempt to strengthen the connection between OD&D and Chainmail to help ease miniature Chainmail players to D&D by way of said origin story? If so, did this usage then morph into general marketing and narrative? Also, curios. Besides bridging over earlier Chainmail players to D&D, was there also a hope to cross-sell Chainmail copies to new players? Many thanks in advance. Dave Arneson started a game and campaign he called Blackmoor. This went on for about one and a half to two years during which many people in the Twin Cities participated and even spun things off of it. This was all preceded by many things including the Braunsteins of David Wesely of which Arneson had a major impact on as a player and when Wesely went into the military, Arneson continued to run.
When Arneson started Blackmoor it had many influences and things were used from many, many sources. Reportedly the Chainmail combat system was used briefly, but was unsatisfactory and was replaced with other things by Arneson. At the end of this first Twin Cities phase Arneson and some others traveled to Lake Geneva to show and run Blackmoor for Gygax, Kuntz and a few others. They immediately took to it and the Greyhawk campaign was soon begun and Arneson provided notes to Gygax. Much by Arneson was not written down and his notes were sometimes hard to completely comprehend and many phone calls and letters between them ensued as things progressed and things moved from developing the Greyhawk campaign to writing OD&D. As Gygax did the actual writing, he used Arneson's ideas and system, but introduced his own mechanics in place of Arneson's mechanics. Some elements of Chainmail were added to OD&D that were not present in Blackmoor. By all accounts the Chainmail combat system was not used in OD&D, but the "alternate system" which was really "the" system. All of the Chainmail references by name in OD&D were for the sole purpose of selling copies of Chainmail way more than any other reason as I understand it. AFAIK the early players did use Chainmail for mass combat, which is what its purpose was.
That I believe is the gist of it. Rob Kuntz has a book in progress that will detail more accurately than I can most of what I have covered here. You will want to reference also the book DATG noted in the post before this one.
Also you will want to look through Kalibruhn - The World of Robert J Kuntz on this forum which is currently only readable since Rob is focusing on making a living and finishing products for the foreseeable future. I recently read that he is raising money to move back to the USA from Corsica, France.
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