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Post by dragondaddy on Feb 24, 2018 6:52:23 GMT -5
Until you, I don’t think anyone saw the real story going on. And I don't think there was any other person who saw as much or knew the principle actors as did you. I don’t think the full scope of his (discovery? invention?) has been tested yet. Whether it leads back to the fields of psychiatry or teaching, improvisational theater or yet another type of game, I haven't the skills sets nor smarts to recognize any markers. You may well be the only person who is uniquely situated, trained, and creative enough to be able to tell this unfinished story. And I hope to stick around long enough to read it all. Ehh? Yes there were plenty of folks that saw the real story as it unfolded. My original DM had attended both Gen Con VIII, and Origins I, that I know of for sure, and maybe even a few of the other earlier GenCons (I never asked him...). He taught us how to play in the original sandbox style starting in early 1977, and we ran games where we made up our own campaign settings, and dungeons, and adventures. We (Being my Gaming Group, and I) attended the very first Ghenghis Con in Denver in 1979. When we went to return to Ghenghis Con II in 1980, I was told by the convention organizers in no uncertain terms that I could not run my original D&D adventures, and had to instead run games based on AD&D 1e, run using the newly organized Roleplaying Gamers Association (RPGA) tournament modules, or run games using "approved" TSR modules. They absolutely refused to register and promote my 0D&D games. This, ...of course, put me at odds with TSR, and while I attended Ghenghis Con regularly up until 1985, I never again ran an RPG game at their show. From 1985 until 2000 I didn't attend any RPG game shows at all. When I started attending Origins & Gencon after 2000, I organized and ran 0D&D games, and other old school games, almost exclusively. Even then WOTC put me in a quiet little back room, and the 0D&D games were not well attended until about 2006, when original D&D suddenly became very popular again, and unexpectedly, I found my table overflowing with gamers that wanted to remember or "try" the original D&D. In 2008, WOTC invited me to run 0D&D games at GenCon in the Sagamore ballroom, which pretty much constituted an open invitation to run Original D&D so the wheel had finally came full circle. The strength of 0D&D was the creative aspects, where the GM was responsible for creating adventures, campaigns, and fantastic rules to make games, entertaining, fun, believable, and interesting. Because organizations like the RPGA, and TSR decided to insist one the One True Waytm of play, they lost many RPG fans. By 1992 only one member of my original group of almost a dozen was playing AD&D. I continued running & playing 0D&D, but also ran Chivalry & Sorcery Games, as well as RoleMaster games. Some of my other friends opted to run Tunnels & Trolls, and The Fantasy Trip or Runequest, and some stopped playing RPGs all together returning to play Wargames almost exclusively.
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Post by dragondaddy on Feb 24, 2018 7:18:33 GMT -5
I don’t think the full scope of his (discovery? invention?) has been tested yet. Whether it leads back to the fields of psychiatry or teaching, improvisational theater or yet another type of game, I haven't the skills sets nor smarts to recognize any markers. You may well be the only person who is uniquely situated, trained, and creative enough to be able to tell this unfinished story. And I hope to stick around long enough to read it all. Agreed!! I'd be very interested in reading more about creative concepts that were part of the original game. For example, I was reading through The Strategic Review, Volume 1, issue 2 recently, and came across a section where Gary was describing an example of Dungeons and Dragons combat where ten Orcs attack a Hero (4th lvl fighter), and he specifically states "Two of the Orcs have grappled the Hero, and if his score with 4 dice is less than their score with 2 dice (Two of five of the attacking Orcs had hit the Fighter), he has been pinned helplessly. If it is a tie, they are struggling, with the hero still on his feet, but he will be unable to defend himself with his weapon. If the Hero scores higher than the Orcs use the positive difference to throw off the attackers. i.e. the Hero scores 15, and the Orcs scored but 8, so the Hero has tossed both aside, stunning them for 7 turns between them."
When I first looked at this I was like, OMG, Iv'e been playing D&D wrong for forty-one years!!! The Hero gets four attacks (one attack die for every level) every round!!!...and then I looked again, and that combat was conducted using the Chainmail rules, not the Alternate Combat System that was presented in the White Bookset. I looked carefully for any rules which listed fighters getting more than one attack per round, and could only find a mention in Greyhawk, of a Fighter having 1 or 2 attacks per round, and naturally put this down to a fighter dual wielding two weapons, like two Short Swords, or a Long Sword and a Dagger for example, because I couldn't find anything else. Does anyone know if there were any rules for multiple attacks by high level fighters like Heroes (4th lvl) and Superheroes (8th lvl+) using the Alternate Combat System. Have I missed something vital over all these years?
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Post by robkuntz on Feb 24, 2018 7:25:08 GMT -5
Until you, I don’t think anyone saw the real story going on. And I don't think there was any other person who saw as much or knew the principle actors as did you. I don’t think the full scope of his (discovery? invention?) has been tested yet. Whether it leads back to the fields of psychiatry or teaching, improvisational theater or yet another type of game, I haven't the skills sets nor smarts to recognize any markers. You may well be the only person who is uniquely situated, trained, and creative enough to be able to tell this unfinished story. And I hope to stick around long enough to read it all. Ehh? Yes there were plenty of folks that saw the real story as it unfolded. My original DM had attended both Gen Con VIII, and Origins I, that I know of for sure, and maybe even a few of the other earlier GenCons (I never asked him...). He taught us how to play in the original sandbox style starting in early 1977, and we ran games where we made up our own campaign settings, and dungeons, and adventures. We (Being my Gaming Group, and I) attended the very first Ghenghis Con in Denver in 1979. When we went to return to Ghenghis Con II in 1980, I was told by the convention organizers in no uncertain terms that I could not run my original D&D adventures, and had to instead run games based on AD&D 1e, run using the newly organized Roleplaying Gamers Association (RPGA) tournament modules, or run games using "approved" TSR modules. They absolutely refused to register and promote my 0D&D games. This, ...of course, put me at odds with TSR, and while I attended Ghenghis Con regularly up until 1985, I never again ran an RPG game at their show. From 1985 until 2000 I didn't attend any RPG game shows at all. When I started attending Origins & Gencon after 2000, I organized and ran 0D&D games, and other old school games, almost exclusively. Even then WOTC put me in a quiet little back room, and the 0D&D games were not well attended until about 2006, when original D&D suddenly became very popular again, and unexpectedly, I found my table overflowing with gamers that wanted to remember or "try" the original D&D. In 2008, WOTC invited me to run 0D&D games at GenCon in the Sagamore ballroom, which pretty much constituted an open invitation to run Original D&D so the wheel had finally came full circle. The strength of 0D&D was the creative aspects, where the GM was responsible for creating adventures, campaigns, and fantastic rules to make games, entertaining, fun, believable, and interesting. Because organizations like the RPGA, and TSR decided to insist one the One True Waytm of play, they lost many RPG fans. By 1992 only one member of my original group of almost a dozen was playing AD&D. I continued running & playing 0D&D, but also ran Chivalry & Sorcery Games, as well as RoleMaster games. Some of my other friends opted to run Tunnels & Trolls, and The Fantasy Trip or Runequest, and some stopped playing RPGs all together returning to play Wargames almost exclusively. Hi there Dragon Daddy! Agreed, and Yoyo's enthusiasm regarding my exposure of these facts should not be construed as a POV that is only understood by myself alone, and as I pointed out in Dave Arneson's True Genius, from which I quote: "But TSR now abandoned an ascendant philosophy of individual systemization and went railing against such “divergences” which they had previously and fervently extolled as necessary and desirable.23 Such “variants” then became absolute boogeymen; and those players who continued forwarding such individuations were labeled pariahs even though they had faithfully resolved to follow TSR’s original philosophy as directly noted by Gary Gygax’s earliest quotes. "This reversal also became a truly alienating way of dealing with once valued consumers and at the same time caused a rift, if not just created confusion, with many Classic D&D gamers. Moreover, and in summary, this systemic change moved the previous concept (Arneson’s, 1971; and as reiterated by Gygax/Arneson in print, 1974) of DMs as absolute and omniscient creators of content for their individualized systems to a demoted position akin to an administrator of TSR’s system-and-premade-adventure interface. The reader should be able to parse the two philosophical extremes by way of this comparison alone."24
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Post by aldarron on Feb 24, 2018 14:39:04 GMT -5
Perhaps it would be good first to say what is the original spirit of the game. And what OSR products and authors have truly embraced that original spirit and produced something that reflects that original spirit accurately? . I'm not one to accept or reject or particularly care about the OSR label. However as someone who has made, and continues to make and refine Original Style Rules product (see what I did there?), I have made every effort to embrace the original spirit of the game with Champions of ZED etc. I sincerely try anyway. The extent to which I succeed is not for me to say.
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Feb 24, 2018 15:12:47 GMT -5
Just for Dragons of Arneson (forgot the real title) and Champions of ZED, you need an exalt. I found this here used one for you, but you'll have to erase the original name (Linus Van Pelt) or ipaint over it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2018 15:18:49 GMT -5
Well, part of what explains things to me (explains is not the same as justifies, so let's not even start) is the ABSURD amount of money that TSR started making with it's canned food. I mean, earth-piglet dreams are MADE of this much gold. I was working in a bookstore in the early 80s. Modules sold like HOTCAKES. I thought it was bloody insane, but I did NOT refuse to ring up the sale.
When people are flinging gobs of money at you for cans of Spam, it's hard to convince yourself that you should be telling them to go make their own dinners.
I honestly don't know, had I been in the hot seat, if I would have done anything other than giggle insanely as I shoveled cash into my Scrooge McDuck Money Bin No. 1. As it says at the end of the introduction to Bored of the Rings -- "Ring up another one, Jocko. Ching!"
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Feb 24, 2018 15:23:45 GMT -5
Until you, I don’t think anyone saw the real story going on. And I don't think there was any other person who saw as much or knew the principle actors as did you. Ehh? Yes there were plenty of folks that saw the real story as it unfolded. Now, now DragonDaddy - No slur was intended against original players or early arrivals. (Heck, I was playing in 1976 or 1975.) My second sentence referenced that a lot of the "real story" (perhaps I should have said "pre-story" or "subliminal story"?) was knowing the personalities involved, their more private thoughts and expressions, the dynamics of their private lives and beliefs, and - ideally - a genuine and honest mind-reader. Failing that, the closest we have to a person involved before there was anything in which to BE involved is Rob Kuntz. In a perfect scenario, we would have Rob smershed into someone like Greg Svenson, Gary's first wife, his kids, Dave's parents, a VCR tape of all the corny movies Dave was watching on that eureka day, and whoever came up with the earliest version of a Let's Pretend game. But such a creature would look icky and we'd want to attack it with pitchforks and torches.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2018 15:26:32 GMT -5
As I've said before, I'm not part of the OSR because I'm just playing the game the way I always did.
Much as I like some of the OSR folks, the OSR as a movement is so overly concerned with Talmudic style midrash that they miss the forest for those tall greyish tan things with green leaves; they are so busy trying to discover ur-D&D that they totally, completely, and utterly miss the obvious fact that the true ur-D&D "is to decide how you would like it to be, and then make it just that way!"
Now, I understand how the OSR got started, because I was there too; after years of people gobbling Spam and saying "Why would you play that old game, are you stupid?", there arose a desire to promote the older, freer style of play. But they've drifted off course.
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Post by mormonyoyoman on Feb 24, 2018 15:34:07 GMT -5
Bold speaking - and managing to keep the language clean (Which is the hard part!) - deserves a Captain America style exalt. Here it is. You must pick it up within 45 days. Exalts which are not claimed by the owner will be lowered into a pit of vipers, one of which will be named Irving, and the rest of which will be vindshield vipers.
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Post by robkuntz on Feb 24, 2018 16:45:05 GMT -5
Well, part of what explains things to me (explains is not the same as justifies, so let's not even start) is the ABSURD amount of money that TSR started making with it's canned food. I mean, earth-piglet dreams are MADE of this much gold. I was working in a bookstore in the early 80s. Modules sold like HOTCAKES. I thought it was bloody insane, but I did NOT refuse to ring up the sale. When people are flinging gobs of money at you for cans of Spam, it's hard to convince yourself that you should be telling them to go make their own dinners. I honestly don't know, had I been in the hot seat, if I would have done anything other than giggle insanely as I shoveled cash into my Scrooge McDuck Money Bin No. 1. As it says at the end of the introduction to Bored of the Rings -- "Ring up another one, Jocko. Ching!" Hmm. I never thought that I'd note you, Gronan, making far flung amends for TSR's disingenuous behavior! There is a difference between saying, hey, do it the way you want and then changing course and saying, hey you are doing it totally wrong and this is the right way (IOW our consumer model is best for you and us). Which is it? Well, I knew. You knew. And They knew. End of story.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2018 17:02:09 GMT -5
I don't know if it's "making amends," so much as "Dang, if somebody was dumping that much money on me..."
I'm just as weak willed and venal as the next guy.
As a gamer, I agree with you that modules were the worst thing that happened to the hobby.
As a greedy slob, I feel like, as Peter Venckman said in "Ghostbusters," "NO FEE TOO BIG!"
Or maybe, "You want to buy my soul? You don't have enough money!" * whisper whisper * "...you have THAT MUCH money?..."
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2018 17:03:41 GMT -5
Sort of like Magic: The Gathering.
As a gamer, I heard "The more you buy, the better your chance of getting good cards? **** THAT!"
As a MARKETER, I wish I'd thought of it. "Back that semi truck full of cash up to the bin, lads."
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2018 17:22:52 GMT -5
HIM: Would you have sex with me for 100 million dollars? HER: Yes! HIM: Would you have sex with me for 20 dollars? HER: Of course not! What do you think I am? HIM: We've already established that, now we're just dickering over the price.
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Post by dragondaddy on Feb 24, 2018 18:25:05 GMT -5
Well, ...I wouldn't want to even be standing in the way of anyone making money doing what they enjoy, especially when it is about creating, and playing games! I haven't heard back yet if anyone ran games where fighters could make multiple attacks as part melee outside of Chainmail, ...so it is safe to presume that no one played using multiple attacks for heroes and superheroes and wizards using the alternate combat system provided in the white book set?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2018 20:10:46 GMT -5
Um, no. We played with "one attack per level at 1 HD or less creatures" since day 1. Of course I learned to play from Gary and Rob, and, for that matter, I had been playing CHAINMAIL for almost two years.
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Post by robkuntz on Feb 24, 2018 20:36:17 GMT -5
Um, no. We played with "one attack per level at 1 HD or less creatures" since day 1. Of course I learned to play from Gary and Rob, and, for that matter, I had been playing CHAINMAIL for almost two years. As Michael noted (sort of??), no Chainmail rules were used in the playtests of OD&D. The "alternative" combat system WAS the system used in the playtests; the rest is sales posturing by Gary to wean miniature Chainmail players to D&D. I even have a story regarding that coming up in my next book (nearing being finished in a few months) that involved Robilar against a swarm of Orcs and in Castle Greyhawk.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2018 1:21:17 GMT -5
Well, remember Rob, a lot of us in Lake Geneva didn't see any written rules for quite some time. We just figured that if a CHAINMAIL Hero fought as 4 men, and a "Greyhawk" 4th level fighter was called a "Hero," then THEY must fight as 4 men too. And if a 4th level fighter fights as 4 men, then, logically, a 3rd level fighter would fight as 3 men, etc.
It was simple logical extrapolation.
An endangered species, I realize.
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Post by robkuntz on Feb 25, 2018 4:56:57 GMT -5
Well, remember Rob, a lot of us in Lake Geneva didn't see any written rules for quite some time. We just figured that if a CHAINMAIL Hero fought as 4 men, and a "Greyhawk" 4th level fighter was called a "Hero," then THEY must fight as 4 men too. And if a 4th level fighter fights as 4 men, then, logically, a 3rd level fighter would fight as 3 men, etc. It was simple logical extrapolation. An endangered species, I realize. No final logical conclusion ever equalled a surmise. In the timeline you were not one of the originals when we started Michael, your appearance is with Bob and Mary Dale, Tom Champeny and Bill Corey, in that wave of the playtests which is nearing the middle span but not quite (Robilar, Tensor and Terik have ALREADY occupied the 1st level of GHC and changed it, right about there). At the beginning the rules--all spanking 10 pages--had been handed out to everyone, but as they became larger in page count, no. That is why the basics got included in the first, the combat tables, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2018 19:37:14 GMT -5
THAT is extremely interesting; I didn't know a sketch of the rules had been handed out.
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Post by robkuntz on Feb 25, 2018 20:19:40 GMT -5
THAT is extremely interesting; I didn't know a sketch of the rules had been handed out. I thought you eventually ended up with a revised copy???
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2018 21:00:33 GMT -5
Just before I went to Minnesota in Sept. of 1973 I got some pages of charts, but I have no idea where in the evolution they came from. They look to be fairly close to the published rules.
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Post by robkuntz on Feb 25, 2018 23:13:00 GMT -5
Just before I went to Minnesota in Sept. of 1973 I got some pages of charts, but I have no idea where in the evolution they came from. They look to be fairly close to the published rules. Well, I hope that if you sold them (to you know who) that you kept a scan or a copy.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2018 2:58:25 GMT -5
I did indeed keep a scan.
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Post by dragondaddy on Feb 26, 2018 11:37:45 GMT -5
Um, no. We played with "one attack per level at 1 HD or less creatures" since day 1. Of course I learned to play from Gary and Rob, and, for that matter, I had been playing CHAINMAIL for almost two years. As Michael noted (sort of??), no Chainmail rules were used in the playtests of OD&D. The "alternative" combat system WAS the system used in the playtests; the rest is sales posturing by Gary to wean miniature Chainmail players to D&D. I even have a story regarding that coming up in my next book (nearing being finished in a few months) that involved Robilar against a swarm of Orcs and in Castle Greyhawk. I'm really looking forward to reading this new book! Something shiney and new to put on my 2018 Buy list!
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Post by robkuntz on Feb 26, 2018 12:07:29 GMT -5
As Michael noted (sort of??), no Chainmail rules were used in the playtests of OD&D. The "alternative" combat system WAS the system used in the playtests; the rest is sales posturing by Gary to wean miniature Chainmail players to D&D. I even have a story regarding that coming up in my next book (nearing being finished in a few months) that involved Robilar against a swarm of Orcs and in Castle Greyhawk. I'm really looking forward to reading this new book! Something shiney and new to put on my 2018 Buy list! That's very encouraging! I am looking forward to finishing it! It's a beast!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2018 13:27:39 GMT -5
Drat, I still owe Rob a review of DATG.
Right after GaryCon, I promise!
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Post by robkuntz on Feb 26, 2018 14:07:40 GMT -5
Drat, I still owe Rob a review of DATG. Right after GaryCon, I promise! You're getting an email from me soon but it wasn't about that.
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Post by Dartanian on Mar 1, 2018 13:06:16 GMT -5
When I started attending Origins & Gencon after 2000, I organized and ran 0D&D games, and other old school games, almost exclusively. Even then WOTC put me in a quiet little back room, and the 0D&D games were not well attended until about 2006, when original D&D suddenly became very popular again, and unexpectedly, I found my table overflowing with gamers that wanted to remember or "try" the original D&D. In 2008, WOTC invited me to run 0D&D games at GenCon in the Sagamore ballroom, which pretty much constituted an open invitation to run Original D&D so the wheel had finally came full circle. Full circle indeed, and too few have access to those who still know how to run it the original way, but the desire and demand is there, the real question, is how do we bring the seekers into the loop? The strength of 0D&D was the creative aspects, where the GM was responsible for creating adventures, campaigns, and fantastic rules to make games, entertaining, fun, believable, and interesting. Quite so, pre-made adventures are not the stuff of legends IMO. If you want it to "pop" you have to create it, you go more all in if it is all yours. Because organizations like the RPGA, and TSR decided to insist one the One True Waytm of play, they lost many RPG fans. By 1992 only one member of my original group of almost a dozen was playing AD&D. I continued running & playing 0D&D, but also ran Chivalry & Sorcery Games, as well as RoleMaster games. Some of my other friends opted to run Tunnels & Trolls, and The Fantasy Trip or Runequest, and some stopped playing RPGs all together returning to play Wargames almost exclusively. One of the things I like about this forum is that while the primary focus is OD&D and original style play where the REF/DM creates it all, no one is discouraged from talking about any game and how they try to run it in an open ended original style way. No TETSNBN or TATSNBN, no BTB or the highway, and no One True Waytm of play, just games that we play to have fun. As I understand Rob, he is not saying anyone is having bad wrong fun by climbing on the mass market railroad; but what he is saying is that if you go off the beaten path there is a lot to see and a lot of exciting fun to be had and inviting people to come take a look, come give the scenic route a try.
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Post by True Black Raven on Mar 13, 2018 10:26:08 GMT -5
Because organizations like the RPGA, and TSR decided to insist one the One True Waytm of play, they lost many RPG fans. By 1992 only one member of my original group of almost a dozen was playing AD&D. I continued running & playing 0D&D, but also ran Chivalry & Sorcery Games, as well as RoleMaster games. Some of my other friends opted to run Tunnels & Trolls, and The Fantasy Trip or Runequest, and some stopped playing RPGs all together returning to play Wargames almost exclusively. One of the things I like about this forum is that while the primary focus is OD&D and original style play where the REF/DM creates it all, no one is discouraged from talking about any game and how they try to run it in an open ended original style way. No TETSNBN or TATSNBN, no BTB or the highway, and no One True Waytm of play, just games that we play to have fun. As I understand Rob, he is not saying anyone is having bad wrong fun by climbing on the mass market railroad; but what he is saying is that if you go off the beaten path there is a lot to see and a lot of exciting fun to be had and inviting people to come take a look, come give the scenic route a try. This! Armeson hate has become proverbial. I often wonder why so many feel so threatened by his existence. It is like they are vampires and he is Abraham Van Helsing. Dave Arneson DM and game designer is Abraham Van Helsing, the kind of man that any vampiric personality would hate.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2018 11:48:19 GMT -5
Armeson hate has become proverbial. Really? I've seen Arneson ignorance mostly, and some "how much did Dave Arneson do," and Tim Kask never liked Dave but he's just one guy. Where does this happen? I have an axe.
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