Kalibruhn - Original D&D Supplement V (Unpublished)

[Admin Pete]

This thread was over on the DF site and if you want to read the entire thread you can go here. I am going to make a few comments in this post and then copy and paste the conversation that Rob and I had into this thread.

Back in 2012 Rob placed the original handwritten manuscript for the Kalibruhn Supplement for sale on ebay with help of Noble Knight Games. I do not recall if it sold or not, since I did not check the ebay listing at the time since I knew it was out of my price range. However, the ebay listing was as follows:

TSR Basic Dungeons & Dragons (Original Edition) - Box Sets & Core Rules Supplement #5 - Kalibruhn - Original Hand Written Manuscript (VG)

Manufacturer: TSR
Product Line: Basic Dungeons & Dragons (Original Edition) - Box Sets & Core Rules
Type: Ziplock
Author: Robert Kuntz
Page Count: 54

Product Description:

In 1975 Rob co-authored Dungeons & Dragons Supplement 1 - Greyhawk with Gary Gygax and later that year he edited Dungeons & Dragons Supplement 2 - Blackmoor with Dave Arneson. Next he co-authored Supplement 4 - Gods, Demigods & Heroes with Jim Ward, and in the following year he planned to publish his own work - Dungeons & Dragons Supplement 5 - Kalibruhn. You read right, another D&D supplement was planned in the same vein as Greyhawk and Blackmoor!

Rob wrote up extensive notes and rules from his own campaign for Dungeons & Dragons 5 - Kalibruhn. The manuscript would fall into line with Greyhawk and Blackmoor, listing a new class of magic-user, variant spell casting system, a list of new spells specific to this class, some variant rules for ability scores and saving throws, a variant combat procedure, new magic item tables and descriptions, and various comments on his own campaign setting. In summary, poison rules, new character classes, new magic items, a scroll magic system, and other enhancements to the OD&D universe. These 54 written pages here were then pared down to produce a 20-page typed manuscript for submission to TSR.

Alas, rough waters lay ahead for Rob and by early 1976 he left TSR. The Dungeons & Dragons Supplement 5 - Kalibruhn was never published. One and half years later AD&D would come onto the scene and the age of Dungeons & Dragons supplements was over. Dungeons & Dragons supplement 5 - Kalibruhn was lost.

Nay, found!! Rob's original draft for the lost Kalibruhn is now offered here. Be the curator for a truly unique piece of gaming history, the artifact among artifacts...

Included is a certificate of authenticity signed by Robert Kuntz.

Now we could all wish that this 54 pages had been scanned, made into a pdf, watermarked and sold for say $30.00 dollars a copy.

Two questions that the Original OP asked are great questions and they are:

3) Were there any other supplements that didn't get published?

4) What would D&D have been like if TSR had continued down this track instead of going to 1E?

Both of these might make good threads themselves.

Anyway, I will not quote the whole thread without permission, but starting in the next post I will quote Rob and myself.  For those that don't know Rob goes by MajorKookie over at DF.

[Admin Pete]

MajorKookie wrote:

So much misinformation and conjecture here.

Castle El Raja Key environs and Castle Greyhawk environs were on the same shared environment map (Outdoor Survival). A lot of my concepts for what I was independently developing were merged into Greyhawk when I accepted the co-DM mantle, but I was still developing my own world, and had in fact pre-empted Greyhawk in that realized sense by having EGG's PCs adventure in its adjunct realm, Lost City of the Elders in 1973. Gary continued adventuring in our shared environs with what I was still constructing for him and the rest of our players. One should read this article, now going on four years old? at my old blog: lordofthegreendragons.blogspot.com/2009/03/first-living-campaign.html

I have recently expanded it into 3 additional parts for an upcoming print project, but this lead-in part will do for now.

I built World of Kalibruhn (unlike what Greyhawk or Blackmoor were to become) from the top down. I threw out all of the genericism associated with the game (at least 99% of it). All new monsters, magic, spells (and by expanding ranges/types in naturalistic/cultural aspects for same), flora, fauna, deities, etc. I integrated content at holistic levels rather than mash up generic elements, just as Tolkien and MAR Barker had done. These two authors were my models, not Greyhawk or generic FRP tropes/elements that still informs the vast majority of content still produced to this day.

Incidentally, I also broke with the Dungeon-central aspect of play (which I find boring to tears, today) by having El Raja Key magically occur and disappear throughout time and at different geographical locales. I remade the castle to fit into this expanded story, so I have Castle 1 and 2, but way conceptually different from each other in design); I extricated the City-in-adjunct-to-Castle paradigm, this by sinking the namesake city, Kalibruhn, with a tidal wave, thus making it a ruin to be investigated rather than "just another city" to rest at, etc. (I had done enough of that type of design already with City of Greyhawk, nearly 200 pages worth, 1973-74). I created many other places to explore and to tempt the players into the granular environment of the world, etc.

My Q&A is now going again, so if folks have additional questions you know where to ask them.

Cheers!

RJK

[Admin Pete]

MajorKookie wrote:

:idea:

Only the above moves anything from what it is to what it's becoming.

Geoffrey understands and thus appreciates.

And you know, just like BITD, designers would come together and share their designs but no one really grouped. We all had our takes and could argue them efficiently enough to gain the respect of our contemporaries.

But then we'd withdraw; and then at some future time, come forward to appreciate, again.

This is what Geoffrey does. I recognize the professionalism and appreciation from my past days in him. He comes forward to group for the moment; then it's back to the table to create. True artists do that. Free association and all that.

Remain a slave to your own ideas and work and not to the work of others.

[Admin Pete]

MajorKookie wrote:

As well as you should be [pessimistic] as it has never been tops on my list of projects to do. It's somewhat anachronistic at this point, as well. If I were to do it it would be in a very expanded form and would not fit into the "digest format," as, since I am still living, the concepts I originated 1974-1976 have moved far beyond what they originally were and the matter has grown proportionately.

Rob

[Admin Pete]

ThePerilousDreamer wrote:

I understand your point of view Rob; however, I might point out that those of us who still love and play OD&D as our primary game would happily buy the digest sized original and you could still publish the expanded version. I suspect that many (myself included) would buy both. In my case, that original unpublished digest sized volume would in my mind complete my OD&D set and I would even accept it as a pdf release and you could let me print it myself.

The other thing I could point out is there are few things you could do that would have the guaranteed sales that this item would have.

Also if I were in your shoes, I would not discount this:

snip

Frank apparently thinks a market for it is there even if you are not personally wild about doing it. Also for a market that has grown used to being disappointed and ignored, this would be quite a thing. I think you also should not discount the goodwill that you would garner by doing it.

So I hope that you will think about it and perhaps change your mind and do it at some point.

[Admin Pete]

MajorKookie wrote:


"I might point out that those of us who still love and play OD&D as our primary game would happily buy the digest sized original and you could still publish the expanded version."

So quoth the Perilous Dreamer.

I am not discounting any of what you have pointed out.

But I am curious, so please entertain me here. Please follow my line of reasoning: Gary explicitly states in the OD&D version, 1974, "Why have us do any more of your imagining for you?" Further he points repeatedly to the fact that these rules are just "guides" and, as noted by my signature below which quotes him that, "Laws" can be remade, suspended, amended, whatever. This is in fact consonant with our play-test of the growing rules, 1972-74.

So I ask you this. Is it still not consonant with that over-arcing POV to further expand on the elements of the game? It would seem to me that in all likelihood that I have been doing so, just as the players from that time did and still are doing, so too DMs, etc, and just as EGG did up until his death, and just as Arneson did likewise. The point being, OD&D was just a beginning to fantastic immersion and expression and not an end point. It is a framework to work in the fantastic limits of the imagination, to set oneself free, and by using mutable mechanics and a simple math set to do so. And I am still doing so. That endeavor never rooted to a fixed point in time; and just because the actual T's are not crossed with the stroke of OD&D, this does not mean that in some fashion, shape or form that its essence as realized then by myself does not subsist to this day. It cannot exist in any other form given the exhortations to make the game, its rules, the very underlying thing itself, one's own. By that idea alone, its most important one, I have never abandoned it. The game I still DM today is the same I played in the play-tests. It has my take, my laws and my style; and I attempt to convey as much of that as possible in a very limited and contracted market that cries for more of the same, waving this and that edition as a favored one and not getting the fact that it's not about editions at all, in the end, but about creative expression set to the tune of individualism, the very same individualism that EGG embraced in playing his games and in publishing his products.

So, in light of that, I ask again: Is this philosophy not consonant with EGG's expectations as set forth in writing, expectations of what he imagined others would, or would not, do with the rules just as we were doing after our own singular fashions? If in the end you, in turn, respectfully disagree with this most important point then I can only say, and as a respectful guess, that perhaps those with a rooted in stone attitude, a competitive spirit to outdo the present by rooting to the past, did not really get the gist of it all. That would be sad in my estimation for time moved for us then before, during and after the play-tests, and has only slowed for me in regard to my age, and not my inclination.

Respectfully--RJK

[Admin Pete]

ThePerilousDreamer wrote:

Rob,

I only want your supplement from pure curiosity, not because I want to make my game into anyone else's image. If there were something in it that struck my fancy, then I would use the idea, but when I play I seldom open the books, I have always winged it as a ref and don't have time to do it any other way now. Beyond a few tables I really don't need anything else and I could make up my own version of those tables if my books went up in flames for some reason. I think Gary also said that, you don't really need any rules (guidelines) to play the game. I fully agree that I don't need anyone to do my imaging for me. I don't think that anyone would look at my current campaign and point to anything in it and say "Oh yeah, that is like Greyhawk or Blackmoor or ____________" I like to have unique things in my campaign that players have not run into someplace else and that makes them think and engages them. It makes my day when I hear that my younger players went home and could not stop talking about it. When I can no longer create on the fly as a ref, keep all of my players regardless of background engaged, have them all have fun and keep coming back for more, then kick dirt over me, I'm dead.

I don't need your supplement at all, but I would still like to read it once, and quite frankly that only reason I would buy it, the only reason I would buy anything anyone is doing these days, is to support those who make their living or at least supplement their living by creating and publishing. If it were not for the respect that I have for the creative person that actually publishes, I would feel fine about reading a pirated version and then lay it aside and forget about it. Therefore, I "would happily buy the digest sized original".

Respectfully yours,

Halenar Frosthelm

[Admin Pete]

MajorKookie wrote:

Perilous Dreamer,

Yes you are one of the Old Guard. One can strip away all writing, all printed forms, and we still have the essence in us that created all of these objects. As I noted in my most recent interview:


HC: How do we have a more honest and provocative discussion about the older editions of D&D (and our gaming history)?

RJK: A very broad question with many avenues left open for answer, so I’ll choose one. Finding what is common in all of the editions would be a starting point. Let’s see: editions, worlds, products. These are all passing ideas. The immutable survives these as the intrinsic core of the game. And the immutable part of this game in all its forms is the ability to create on all levels. By honestly seeking its core principle that remains unchanged even as the landscape it functions therein changes time and time again, this where we find its truth, its essence, if you will. The rest of it is just dressing it out as each one of us prefers.

So I salute you in your continued creator-centric approach to the game, and no doubt, to life as well.

However, this still does not define why it would be important, as you have intimated, to have a digest of SupV to "complete" your OD&D collection and that I could, "still publish the expanded version." This is what I was really getting at. Those thoughts, which have some pretty set in stone views underlying them that I was attempting to flush to the surface.

If indeed the game is just a creative vehicle that will differ for each participant then why would there be a need to discourse on the format of said matter? And why would the matter of degree, i.e., "expanded" as opposed to other also be a concern? This relates solidly to my last post about creative freedom and expression being an ongoing thing for me.

I am not trying to be funny with this. But in my mind there is an incongruity in the air that I hope you will tackle in answer.

Come on back.

RJK

[Admin Pete]

MajorKookie wrote:

However, this still does not define why it would be important, as you have intimated, to have a digest of SupV to "complete" your OD&D collection and that I could, "still publish the expanded version." This is what I was really getting at. Those thoughts, which have some pretty set in stone views underlying them that I was attempting to flush to the surface.

If indeed the game is just a creative vehicle that will differ for each participant then why would there be a need to discourse on the format of said matter? And why would the matter of degree, i.e., "expanded" as opposed to other also be a concern? This relates solidly to my last post about creative freedom and expression being an ongoing thing for me.

I am not trying to be funny with this. But in my mind there is an incongruity in the air that I hope you will tackle in answer.

Come on back.

RJK

ThePerilousDreamer wrote:

I have spent some time thinking about this and now will attempt to answer your question. First let me post here a quote from the listing that the OP was referencing:

Quote:

Rob wrote up extensive notes and rules from his own campaign for Dungeons & Dragons 5 - Kalibruhn. The manuscript would fall into line with Greyhawk and Blackmoor, listing a new class of magic-user, variant spell casting system, a list of new spells specific to this class, some variant rules for ability scores and saving throws, a variant combat procedure, new magic item tables and descriptions, and various comments on his own campaign setting. In summary, poison rules, new character classes, new magic items, a scroll magic system, and other enhancements to the OD&D universe. These 54 written pages here were then pared down to produce a 20-page typed manuscript for submission to TSR.

ThePerilousDreamer wrote:

And a quote from one of your replies above:

MajorKookie wrote:

As well as you should be [pessimistic] as it has never been tops on my list of projects to do. It's somewhat anachronistic at this point, as well. If I were to do it it would be in a very expanded form and would not fit into the "digest format," as, since I am still living, the concepts I originated 1974-1976 have moved far beyond what they originally were and the matter has grown proportionately.

Rob

ThePerilousDreamer wrote:

The first part of the question is easy; I was just pointing out that publishing the original digest format would have a market and that I believe it would in no way decrease the market for a "very expanded form" and while some would only buy one or the other many, perhaps even most, would buy both. That is my belief and I suspect that Frank would agree on this point and given his post quoted below, I believe I am on pretty solid ground on this point.

The quote that would appear here if I had permission to quote it noted that Eldritch Ent would be interested in publishing the referenced item


I have a feeling that Eldritch is very interested in publishing almost any thing you submit.

Now to move on to the second part of the question.

Many of the "old school" crowd and if we define old school as DF does, then most were not around for OD&D and have never played it. Most of the people who call themselves or think of themselves as "old school" either started with AD&D or they started with the abbreviated Holmes D&D or "Classic D&D" and then moved on to AD&D. Only a handful started with and for the most part stayed with OD&D and the same is true of Classic. Of the OD&D folks and the post OD&D folks, most played many other games and some moved on to 2nd Ed AD&D, some moved on to other games entirely and some moved on to later games. Of all the people that played any version of the pre-WotC era D&D/AD&D, it is anyone's guess how many people still claim one of these pre-Wotc versions as there primary game.

I have tried/played Holmes D&D, the BX D&D, the BECMI D&D, the Rules Cycolpedia D&D, 1st Ed AD&D, 2nd Ed AD&D. I also read all the way through the core books for 3E. Over the past few years I have also looked at many, many other games. I am not here going into any of the arguments about what is or isn't old school and the merits of this or that versus this or that. Suffice it to say that in my own personal opinion no other game compares favorably with OD&D. Holmes is abbreviated and therefore not my primary game. An organized rewrite of OD&D without any change in content to make it more "reader friendly" as many have tried to do would have been something I would have bought back in the day; however, it is in no way required or necessary in the least and even had it been available I might not have used it since I was already conversant with the original. The other versions noted here were all in my own personal opinion less open ended and less versatile than the original so after trying each I went back to the original. In my opinion there is no other game that is as flexible or that has as many options or that can be adapted so readily to anything. There were many years after I left college that I did not play for lack knowing anyone who played and times later on when I played 1st or 2nd Ed AD&D because that was what the available players wanted. Over all, I have found all other games to be a source of an idea here and there.

I still read all the fantasy fiction I can find time for as I have done since childhood. Both old and new fiction and I still look for and sometimes find older fantasy fiction that predates Tolkien. All of these are sources of ideas. I have read everything I have been able to locate of ERB and REH and always hope when I read something new that it will be more than just an imitation.

When I had the opportunity in the spring of 2009 to get a new campaign going it was the result of running an ad for about 4 years seeking players for OD&D. Our first game was in July of 2009 and while we can only play once per month we usually get to play for about 6 and a half hours. Since that time I have had 28 different people play. Both black and white, male and female and ages ranging from six (6) to fifty-six (56). I was the only OD&D player in the group and initially the only ref. My other players ranged from had never played any rpg at all, to Classic D&D, to 1st and or 2nd ED AD&D, to only 3E or 3.5E to only MMORPG's. Some players played one game and quit. A few have played a year and then quit. Currently I have a core group of 5-6 players that make almost every game. I have one player that comes in from three (3) states away and gets into about 4 games a year. I had one player, a very good friend that was my age that passed away a little over a year into the game. His booming laugh and always good humor is sorely missed. I currently have a pool of about 16 people that play now and then and the 5-6 that are consistent. The most in a single game was eleven (11). I have one player that can also ref and he started with BX D&D. He started playing near in the spring of 2011 and reffed the end of the Nov 2011 game through the beginning of the Apr 2012 game. That gave me my first opportunity to play instead of ref in over 30 years. I found finally getting a chance to play reinvigorated my creative juices.

Since the game begin the players have been in three different versions of the same world and made it back. Two current players are from each of those alternate worlds. They have been inside three different mega-dungeons, one of which was the inside of an entire mountain from which they had to escape after being chased into it. About 65% of the game play has been outside the dungeons and they have spent one game plus and a approaching another game or two of being in a ship on the open ocean as they travel from continent to continent trying to get home. One player, one of my 3E players really wanted to play a dragon. "Other character types: There is no reason that players cannot be allowed to play as virtually anything, provided as relatively weak and work up to the top, ..." E. Gary Gygax, Dungeons and Dragons, M&M page 8, 1974. So I said sure let me work something up. This is also the player coming in from three (3) states away and I had about a month to work something and up and we started an ongoing play test. With his permission other players, experienced and inexperienced take turns running his character in addition to their own. When working something up I had to first reconcile Dragon as a PC with my established campaign vision of Dragons living indefinitely and becoming extremely powerful as an ancient creature. So I established a period of about 500 years from which a dragon hatches out in a bit different form and then goes thorough a cocoon phase and emerges in a familiar dragon shape at about 250 lbs and about 15 feet long, intensely curious and the only phase of life where they are willing to associate (05% chance) with humans and other creatures on an ongoing basis. I worked out how they can advance from 1st level to 12th level, the normal game max for the majority (but not all) of PCs and NPCs. After a dragon reaches this 12th level (at about 2500 lbs and 50 ft in length) and when they near 13th level they will face a genetic compulsion to leave and undergo a second cocoon phase from which they will emerge intensely hungry and rapidly grow to full adult size and then will go seek a life mate. Once they have mated for life there interactions with other intelligent creatures will be determined by there interactions during the middle phase of life. Dragons all have a poisonous bite being based on poisonous snakes of the real world, coral, diamondback, cobra etc and are colored and marked as these snakes. So no D&D dragons at all. Dragons can shape change to humanoid form and back once per day. The play test is ongoing and the dragon has been a valuable team member but not dominant and is currently 6th level.

I have said all of that to say this:

1. OD&D was my first rpg and I know it by far the best of any game and it serves all of my needs as a gaming vehicle.
2. It is more flexible that anything else I have played and I seldom look at the books other than a few tables. So while I will look at and sometimes play another game I feel no need to ever switch to something else as my primary gaming vehicle.
3. Currently I run fighting-men, magic-users and clerics, plus a playtest of a rewritten paladin which has ended and the first try at a ranger which just ended.
4. Men, elves, dwarves and hobbits, plus so far the dragon.
5. The options for PCs are nearing a time of getting shaken up both on the race options and on the class options.
6. Doing a complete re-write of the thief so percentages start slower and progress slower.
7. "On the other hand, we are not loath to answer your questions, but why have us do any more of your imagining for you?" E. Gary Gygax, Dungeons & Dragons, Afterword, 1974. Fully Agree!
8. "New details can be added and old "laws" altered so as to provide continually new and different situations." E. Gary Gygax, Dungeons and Dragons, Introduction, 1974. Fully Agree!

Quote:

listing a new class of magic-user, variant spell casting system, a list of new spells specific to this class, some variant rules for ability scores and saving throws, a variant combat procedure, new magic item tables and descriptions

9. I don't need in anyway any of the above that you have done for my game at all. But again I am curious. I suppose in one sense, I like to measure my imagination against those who were there bitd. I like to measure myself and my creations against what Gary did and what Dave did and also what people like Dave Hargrove did with Arduin (after it became more than an unauthorized D&D supplement I played it too), and MAR Barker with EPT and you are one of those people that I would like to see what you have done for the same reason to measure my imagination against what you did then and also (that is why I would buy both) against what you are doing now. But for me this is not a win/lose thing. Like playing D&D itself for me it is all good and the measuring is win/win. I mine everything for ideas and I have sufficient Ego and Self-esteem, to not feel like I measure poorly against anyone, even on those few occasions when I recognize that someone may be smarter, wider-read and more creative than I am. I am not deflated or discouraged by what someone else has done and I am opinionated enough not to really care if I run into naysayers which is part and parcel of the internet. You see I like to believe wrongly or rightly that had I been in the right place at the right time I could have written D&D or have spent my whole life creating an EPT or a Middle Earth or a Narnia or an Oz or the worlds of ERB or REH, etc.

Quote:

and various comments on his own campaign setting

10. I would read this for the same reason that after reading "The Hobbit" and "The Lord of the Rings Trilogy" I also read "The Silmarillion" and other Tolkien works. If you mix what you can learn about the three original D&D worlds, EPT, Arduin, Tokien, ERB and REH and anything else you can get your hands on you have more than enough ideas for a thousand worlds. I already have more ideas than I have time to use, so for me personally it is not really important whether you publish or not. But it would be appreciated and not just by me.

11. Completing my OD&D collection is not really an issue with me. I have my beater copy, my clean copy and the legal pdfs during the brief time they were sold, so when the beater copy gets too beaten I will print one. I am never going to go out and pay several thousands of dollars to get a 1st print, 2nd print, 3rd and 4th print or the first and second printing of Chainmail and etc. I have a 5th and 6th print, a 3rd print chainmail and the supplements. When I said complete I really meant if there is another supplement I want it more to read it as a source of ideas that I may not have had myself, and to learn more about your world and though it to learn more about you. I am not a completest in the sense that a real collector is by any means.

So is it important that you publish the digest sized supplement and/or the expanded version. For me personally it is important in the sense that I would appreciate getting to read it. I think that there are those in the community for which it is more than that. But I don't think it is for reasons that violate the quotes by Gary that are in your signature. Let's face it the OD&D players that needed someone to do their imagining for them moved on quickly to other games and now solidly wedded to the most rules heavy stuff with the most extensive prepared settings they could find. Those people are not your market at all in my view. Those are the same people that don't like house rules. You don't find those people playing OD&D. You do find some of those types with 1st Ed AD&D and more still with 2nd Ed AD&D, but the vast majority of those people moved on even from there.

So have I answered your question fully, sorry, but I don't think I have; however, I think I have gotten partway there. But I have defined things more clearly in my own mind.

Cheers,

Halenar

[Admin Pete]

MajorKookie wrote:

major snippage!...

A dissertation length response... I had not expected. I will concentrate on your summary and add to from other highlights I believe cogent to the matter overall

"So is it important that you publish the digest sized supplement and/or the expanded version. For me personally it is important in the sense that I would appreciate getting to read it. I think that there are those in the community for which it is more than that. But I don't think it is for reasons that violate the quotes by Gary that are in your signature. Let's face it the OD&D players that needed someone to do their imagining for them moved on quickly to other games and now solidly wedded to the most rules heavy stuff with the most extensive prepared settings they could find. Those people are not your market at all in my view. Those are the same people that don't like house rules. You don't find those people playing OD&D. You do find some of those types with 1st Ed AD&D and more still with 2nd Ed AD&D, but the vast majority of those people moved on even from there."

I will first state, straight away, that the matter of where to publish this has already been decided. That is based upon editorial excellence in relation to my past literary ideas and estate which have been under the scrutiny and in the care of others now for 10+ years. This relies heavily on the aspects of creative understanding, degree of product sensitivity and a specific overview of intent which has been managed to date through the direct involvement of Allan Grohe, VP for Black Blade Publishing and its President, and thereby adjunct to the whole by association, Jon Hershberger.

I agree with your assessments overall. The relevant points are both cost with a two-prong approach and a watering down of the expanded forms which then become divergent (the spells and magic, monsters and even systematized ideas) and which I would have to tool first once, then twice, lending only confusion and expense to the matter through one being distilled and the other pressed. It would also lengthen an already lengthly process.

In my informed view OD&D is not about a set in stone form. It is about whatever you adapt to it. This remains then consonant with EGG's view, and with the views that were expressed by the play-testers of the game, myself included. That portrays no limits and no borders and not the opposite. It is only the marketing cycle of TSR that put up those false boundaries, and I ignore them all and as directed by the original unsullied vision relating to the concept in its most simple and straightforward meaning.

Your respectful insistence to discuss the matter has in turn earned my respect and for this I grant you the appreciate nod that you deserve.

The matter has thus been influenced as you had hoped, at least in part, and I have most recently blogged about it (see link in my sig). I am also in contact with Black Blade about working out the details of fitting the matter into our already bloated publishing schedule, or in re-arranging some parts to do so. Though this may not work out to your exact liking, I cannot redact my vision according to this sector or that sector's needs or thoughts. All I can do on this Earth is to create as I see fit, and to create what I believe I'd like to play and thus have others play. I hope you understand.

Robert

[Admin Pete]

ThePerilousDreamer wrote:

I do understand and I don't blame you for not doing both. There was, after all, no harm in asking for both. I believe that you should always aim high, and go after what you want. If you ask for less you will always get less. I hold both Allan Grohe and Jon Hershberger in high regard, and I look forward to the finished product. Thank you for your decision and I thank you for your kind comments regarding any part I may have had in your decision.

Respectfully,

Halenar

[Admin Pete]

MajorKookie wrote:

As a fictional character in a short story I wrote, said, "Start to Finish, Done and Well!"

Be seeing you here or there, P. D.

Rob

[robkuntz]

The only change I have is to the lead in for clarity sake. The notes and typed MS were sold separately at auction in 2006 through the Collector's Trove and on Ebay. What was listed on Noble Knight was the resale of said work, and not by me the IP holder, but by whoever bought the physical MS at auction the first go-around.

[Admin Pete]

Mar 7, 2015 15:41:44 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

The only change I have is to the lead in for clarity sake. The notes and typed MS were sold separately at auction in 2006 through the Collector's Trove and on Ebay. What was listed on Noble Knight was the resale of said work, and not by me the IP holder, but by whoever bought the physical MS at auction the first go-around.

I was not aware of that, thank you for setting the record straight.

[The Bear Hawk]

Whenever you publish this, I will be buying a copy. I don't buy very much stuff, but I would shell some coin of the realm out for that.

[robkuntz]

Mar 13, 2015 12:40:27 GMT -5 The Bear Hawk said:

Whenever you publish this, I will be buying a copy. I don't buy very much stuff, but I would shell some coin of the realm out for that.

Hopefully when I do so it will not disappoint.  It's become somewhat mythical in my estimation.  But there's one avenue that can be derived from it that is consonant with my philosophy of ongoing granularity; and that is my take on the way I envisioned and used spells in the campaign and which I was (future-wise then) hoping to promote into the published versions of D&D and then later AD&D.  A solid but unobtrusive expansion for both so to speak.

[Admin Pete]

Mysterious, mythical, yes so it has become over the years.

[robkuntz]

Yes. Of course what I meant was that it has reached mythical proportions in the minds of those who would want it, and for reasons related to other than design (ideas) as I have forwarded none of the latter for that alternate POV to manifest. So, curiosity prevails. Thus, "Hopefully when I do so it will not disappoint." As noted, above, there is a quality to it in the way that the spells (and spell use) are expanded upon which is the real cornerstone of the work; and as such makes it a much larger book than the other supplements by comparison.

[Admin Pete]

Mar 22, 2015 11:14:26 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

Yes. Of course what I meant was that it has reached mythical proportions in the minds of those who would want it, and for reasons related to other than design (ideas) as I have forwarded none of the latter for that alternate POV to manifest. So, curiosity prevails. Thus, "Hopefully when I do so it will not disappoint." As noted, above, there is a quality to it in the way that the spells (and spell use) are expanded upon which is the real cornerstone of the work; and as such makes it a much larger book than the other supplements by comparison.

I understood what you meant. I do not think it will disappoint anyone who is doing their own thing. We have discussed this before (so I realize that you are not going to publish the original manuscript) and I believe that even if you were to publish only the original manuscript that your real audience would not be disappointed and that when the expanded manuscript that you intend to publish is, your real audience will most certainly not be disappointed.

IMO your real audience is those who are both trying to create and are creating their own thing and are benefited from seeing the creative efforts of others. I think there are many that look at what has been done and want to tweak and create and go beyond mere imitation and have their own unique thing. I believe that audience exists and that it will grow over time as it is nurtured. That is why I created this forum, for those who want to do something new and different. Some people are very creative and some people are a little creative, both are welcome here.

I want people to unchain their imaginations and try new things, different things. Not worrying about will it work, try it and find out. Change it until it does work. Those that came to D&D in their teens or earlier have memories of even the sky not being the limit. I came to the game in college and I remember that time and I have always tried to keep that sense of wonder that I had the first time I played and share it with others IMCs. Now I have a wife and a full time job. Many have a wife (or husband), a full time (non-creative) job and a family. Being creative is more difficult under those conditions, but not impossible - especially if you have ready access to like-minded people whom you can synergize with.

[Necromancer]

Fantastic post, Admin Pete! And an important one as well, as I see it, since it sums up the spirit of this board. Thanks, have an Exalt!

[robkuntz]

@pd: I really believe that my audience has been given ample examples over time of design "takes" to the point where these have or have not filtered into their own works if this was their intent. So my extant works portray that amply enough. They are end results, however, and thus distance themselves from the mind-set and philosophy that generated them. So... The BOOK, and So... my want to describe basic design thought so that published works, or other examples, follow rather than lead the horse of creativity.

[Admin Pete]

I look forward to The BOOK. How is your move or at least the planning for the move going? Are you willing to share with us the country you are moving too?

[robkuntz]

Hey PD. The move coincided with some major dental work I just had (now good) and is "moving" along apace. I will be informing those I know where it is that I reside once i have moved, gotten married, settled into the new house, etc. There's a lot to do with it and some of my library is remaining behind to be shipped later, as is a selection of my office equipment, etc. THE BOOK is still going (5,500 words last week). I write every day on it and share major portions of it with my fiancee to acquire feedback.

[Admin Pete]

Great good to hear things are going well and "major dental work" I feel for you there, I will likely be getting some of my  own done later this year.

[The Bear Hawk]

Mar 15, 2015 11:48:21 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

Mar 13, 2015 12:40:27 GMT -5 The Bear Hawk said:

Whenever you publish this, I will be buying a copy. I don't buy very much stuff, but I would shell some coin of the realm out for that.

Hopefully when I do so it will not disappoint.  It's become somewhat mythical in my estimation.  But there's one avenue that can be derived from it that is consonant with my philosophy of ongoing granularity; and that is my take on the way I envisioned and used spells in the campaign and which I was (future-wise then) hoping to promote into the published versions of D&D and then later AD&D.  A solid but unobtrusive expansion for both so to speak.

I am certain that you will not disappoint. Your take on the way you envisioned and used spells in the campaign will undoubtedly be worth the entire purchase price and I am quite certain there will be instructive nuggets aplenty besides that.

[robkuntz]

I talked to Jon Hershberger from Black Blade Publishing last night regarding the author/product schedule that we are reaching agreement on once my move is complete, and these were the hot projects that were being considered for publication:

City of Brass (redone original MS)
Castle El Raja Key (original 1st iteration used in the play-test of D&D)
KALIBRUHN Supplement (probably as 3 or more LBB due to the size and scope); or as one very large 8x11

So there's some movement on it which will be assessed after my move; but it remains on the near horizon.

[Admin Pete]

Fantastic news! Here is hoping your move goes smoothly! Hopefully all three items will see daylight by this time next year.

[Vile Traveller]

May 1, 2015 12:40:58 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

I talked to Jon Hershberger from Black Blade Publishing last night regarding the author/product schedule that we are reaching agreement on once my move is complete, and these were the hot projects that were being considered for publication:

City of Brass (redone original MS)
Castle El Raja Key (original 1st iteration used in the play-test of D&D)
KALIBRUHN Supplement (probably as 3 or more LBB due to the size and scope); or as one very large 8x11

So there's some movement on it which will be assessed after my move; but it remains on the near horizon.

I hope The Collected Adventures of Boinger and Zereth are not too far down the list on that schedule!

[robkuntz]

What they are doing with their other schedules is not known to me.

[robkuntz]

OK. The move went smoothly, the getting married part dragged on due to French laws that require you to wait, go here and there, and so forth, collecting this and that for their complicated process (they have made marrying a foreigner a chore if not a mockery), but this is now complete as of the 11th Jan. In between I had some office stuff shipped to me by Allan Grohe and other and was able to set up shop. I am now about 90% functional ( I need another large table for drawing/arranging manuscripts, etc.) and that is on the near horizon. I have started the process of writing and designing again as a full-time endeavor. The expected lag has been eating away at me.

Started: The Introduction and outline for Kalibruhn. The Intro is more than an intro, but a major treatise on design philosophies for building the world, starting 43 years ago and continuing to date, and will be a work of itself offered both separately/with the boxed set and including some stand-alone design essays which represent said philosophy that are condensations of my design thought overall. The combined whole is now hovering at 4,000+ words.

I have also whittled down Kalibruhn's outline to useable matter. Not all of the manuscript parts can be offered as there is just too much material and avenues to cover. Later PDFs might be in order for more of its intricate history time-lines and matter which is more inspirational for me but which might be otherwise categorized as "fluffy" by others.

Today: Major outlining and expansion of how I organized and treated with the Undead of Kalibruhn. Fun! by Nekrun's Boney Appendage...!