Avalon Hill

[ripx187]

I've been doing a lot of reading lately in regards to Avalon Hill and the importance of that company to today. The foundation which Gary Gygax used for his Chainmail rules, and later incorporated into the mechanics for Dungeons & Dragons can be traced almost directly to this company. TSR was very aggressive about trying to achieve solitary rights to the RPG market, but would I be off base to suggest that Avalon Hill ALLOWED him to publish his rules in the first place? All of the articles that I can find have a great reverence for Avalon Hill, I remember this company in a very positive light as well, but I'm wondering if the line between AH the benefactor and nurturer of the hobby has been exaggerated over AH the business?

I set out to write a very simple article about the influence of Avalon Hill, but there is nothing simple about this company. I remember how shocked I was when it came out that Hasbro had bought them out as well. This is one of the most important companies that most people probably have never heard of. I don't think that there would be computer simulated war games, role-playing games, or perhaps even a hobby to enjoy if Monarch hadn't taken over in 62.

[Deleted]

Sorry, no, you are WAY off base. Not even close. AH had NOTHING to do with CHAINMAIL at all. You'd have a lot better luck trying to trace CHAINMAIL through the miniatures wargaming hobby.


Get a copy of "Playing at the World," it will answer all these sorts of questions and more.

[ripx187]

Thanks Gronan. People get sentimental about things. I couldn't figure out if AH was supporting other companies, or just buying them out. Wikipedia listings suggest that Avalon Hill was the center of the hobby.

[Mighty Darci]

Wikipedia is not known for being concerned with accuracy or with the facts.

[tetramorph]

Feb 17, 2017 23:03:36 GMT -5 ripx187 said:

Thanks Gronan. People get sentimental about things. I couldn't figure out if AH was supporting other companies, or just buying them out. Wikipedia listings suggest that Avalon Hill was the center of the hobby.

Perhaps the center of hex and counter board wargames.

But not for the more independent, hobby driven miniatures wargamming.

[ripx187]

I think that the suggestion to use AH's Outdoor Survival threw me off. D&D uses the hexgrid, which came from board wargaming, but AH was probably the first to publish it. Charles Roberts is credited with a lot of firsts, perhaps mass marketing Wargames is his biggest accomplishment.

After Gronan said something, I altered my research strategy and discovered that Gygax was most definitely instrumental in publishing and popularizing miniature style Kriegsspiel. His association with D&D really overshadows his earlier accomplishments. Thanks guys, better to learn this stuff now then after I had published my article. I rewrote the thing 4 times and kept running into contradictions. This would be why!

[ripx187]

Feb 18, 2017 7:35:46 GMT -5 Mighty Darci said:

Wikipedia is not known for being concerned with accuracy or with the facts.

Its not that bad Darcy, it is a giant think-tank. The real fun of Wikipedia is when you hit that little talk button at the top and see the debates going on to improve the articles. Everything is a work in progress. Nothing is perfect, but when it comes to obscure and weird things, it is a great starting spot. Everything is supposed to be sited from a reliable source, but you've got so many people working on things, that, as in this case, the source that they based their work on was inaccurate.

[Mighty Darci]

Feb 18, 2017 15:04:08 GMT -5 ripx187 said:

Feb 18, 2017 7:35:46 GMT -5 Mighty Darci said:

Wikipedia is not known for being concerned with accuracy or with the facts.

Its not that bad Darcy, it is a giant think-tank. The real fun of Wikipedia is when you hit that little talk button at the top and see the debates going on to improve the articles. Everything is a work in progress. Nothing is perfect, but when it comes to obscure and weird things, it is a great starting spot. Everything is supposed to be sited from a reliable source, but you've got so many people working on things, that, as in this case, the source that they based their work on was inaccurate.

That would be a matter of opinion and IMO their definition of a reliable source is considerably different from mine.

[mormonyoyoman]

Feb 18, 2017 15:04:08 GMT -5 ripx187 said:

Feb 18, 2017 7:35:46 GMT -5 Mighty Darci said:

Wikipedia is not known for being concerned with accuracy or with the facts.

Its not that bad Darcy

Oh yes, it truly is that bad. Perhaps, like yellow journalism in its heyday, its notorious inaccuracy is mainly noticeable to people with first-hand, original-source knowledge of the reported incidents.

it is a giant think-tank.

It's more similar to a giant speculative-tank, similar to the Huffington Post with which it shares the odd belief that every opinion - even an uninformed opinion - is democratically equal to informed opinions and verified facts. Historians and scientists of every specialty have deplored the pollution of data with the opinions posted in these two sites alone.

[ripx187]

Well, considering that this cost me an entire week of unproductivity, bad leads, and garbage writing, I am inclined to agree with both of you. Wikipedia really put me in a spot. Live and learn, right? When I smelt something funny, I should had stopped.

[Deleted]

Wikipedia isn't bad for a "quick look". Or a place to get some links to other searches.

But good luck in your endeavor, and really, "Playing at the World" has a lot of good stuff about the early history; I think the 18th and 19th century stuff was my favorite part!

And your mention of "Outdoor Survival" is a good one. It was a case, I think, where Gary went "Hey, I got this game with kind of a random outdoors map!" * yoink! *

[ripx187]

Playing at the World, yeah, that is one of the books that I really really want to get. I love stuff like that!

[robkuntz]

Feb 17, 2017 19:34:33 GMT -5 ripx187 said:

I've been doing a lot of reading lately in regards to Avalon Hill and the importance of that company to today. The foundation which Gary Gygax used for his Chainmail rules, and later incorporated into the mechanics for Dungeons & Dragons can be traced almost directly to this company. TSR was very aggressive about trying to achieve solitary rights to the RPG market, but would I be off base to suggest that Avalon Hill ALLOWED him to publish his rules in the first place? All of the articles that I can find have a great reverence for Avalon Hill, I remember this company in a very positive light as well, but I'm wondering if the line between AH the benefactor and nurturer of the hobby has been exaggerated over AH the business?

I set out to write a very simple article about the influence of Avalon Hill, but there is nothing simple about this company. I remember how shocked I was when it came out that Hasbro had bought them out as well. This is one of the most important companies that most people probably have never heard of. I don't think that there would be computer simulated war games, role-playing games, or perhaps even a hobby to enjoy if Monarch hadn't taken over in 62.

This is sure lunacy.  Is there a full moon?

[Admin Pete]

Feb 20, 2017 4:52:39 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

This is sure lunacy.  Is there a full moon?

I believe this has already been covered, but it does illustrate the point that friends should not let friends be deceived by poorly sourced websites. Perhaps in the future websites can be established that deal truthfully with history on a wide variety of subjects.


The full moon was FEB 10th & 11th.

[Deleted]

Arooo!

[jmccann]

If you are interested in AH as it relates to D&D history, you could look into the game that Gygax wrote which AH published, Alexander the Great. Gygax and Arneson were aware of AH games but the relationship between AH and the new hobby were not as you have described in the OP (not to beat a dead horse as I think you are aware of this). I will just echo the advice of others: get Jon Peterson's book! If you are interested in the history of this hobby you will not find a better book.

[robkuntz]

A better example of AH's attitude toward D&D (a game they rejected in ms form from Gary and Dave before the latter finally decided to publish it as TSR's second title) is embodied in Gary's editorials in the early Strategic Reviews. I also wrote a satirical short story (my first piece of fiction and TSR's first published fiction), "Quest for the Vermillion Volume" in SR #6 and which essentially satirized AH's (and SPI's, who had joined forces with them over the "National Convention issue") attacks on D&D and TSR in response to the success of the game and TSR's rise to prominence through it. Alexander the Great was first published through Guidon Games and then later picked up by AH and had nothing to do with the advent of D&D or Gary's association with AH. He and Tom Shaw and Don Greenwood were acquainted LONG before then.

[jmccann]

Feb 27, 2017 3:15:52 GMT -5 robkuntz said:

A better example of AH's attitude toward D&D (a game they rejected in ms form from Gary and Dave before the latter finally decided to publish it as TSR's second title) is embodied in Gary's editorials in the early Strategic Reviews.     SNIP

They also talked about D&D in some editorial columns of the General.  I'll dig through some and see if I can find some references.

[jmccann]

I have been looking through old Generals (and Dragons) from a few years before and after 1979 trying to find a column I kind of remember reading, but now I worry I might be confused. I will keep looking because I think I will recognize the column when I find it - now I wonder if it was in the General or in the Dragon. It could even have been in S&T and may be more about the relationship of AH and SPI instead of AH and TSR.

One thing that strikes me reading through these old magazines is that the General being a house organ barely acknowledges the existence of other game companies (except SPI in passing in the issues I have been looking at) unless they are buying game titles from them or have hired one of their employees, while the Dragon doesn't hesitate to mention and review games of AH, SPI, and many others. I looked at the Magic Realm issue of hoping for a design article that might acknowledge the existence of D&D but there was none in that issue. The coverage of 1979 Origins in these magazines is very different - the General mentions no games that are not by AH while the Dragon talks about TSR games as well as those of AH, Chaosium, Fantasy Games Unlimited, Game Designers Workshop (when they still made boardgames!) and Heritage as well as notes about miniature figure companies. The Dragon even has scenarios for other companies' games.

[ripx187]

Dragon set out to provide a magazine that gave readers a really good view of what was going on in the scene. As the years went by you can watch that aspect disappear. My particular favorites were positive reviews for horrible house products: The paper that The Complete Shepherd's Handbook was printed on is very nice, and the wonderful artwork done by 8-year-old Sandra Cruz is both refreshing and properly captures the true spirit of this amazing product. While the number of Sheep generator is a bit clunky, the wide variety of hooks available to PC Shepherd more than make up for it.

[Deleted]

The dearth of information about other companies in the General is DOUBLY hilarious in light of the fact that the D&D tournament at either Origins I or II, I don't remember which, drew 250 people... about a quarter of the attendees.

[jmccann]

I spent some more time this evening digging through old S&T gossip columns and the General's "AH Philosophy" columns. I found the piece I was looking for and it was discussing SPI, not TSR. Whoops. My memory has... Now what was I going to say again?

I did find an interesting Gygax/ AH connection though - Sept/ Oct 1970 General refers to the IFW Jan 1969 issue which had an article by Gygax "The Selective Offense/Defense Combat Results Table" which "inspired" the combat matrix in Kriegspiel (scare quotes because the game was widely considered to be a real clunker. I sold my copy to someone at school for $5 and they threatened to beat me up).

[dragondaddy]

Mar 1, 2017 14:44:44 GMT -5 @gronanofsimmerya said:

The dearth of information about other companies in the General is DOUBLY hilarious in light of the fact that the D&D tournament at either Origins I or II, I don't remember which, drew 250 people... about a quarter of the attendees.

I think it was Origins II. My original GM was at the time Air Force ROTC, at Colorado State University in Fort Collins. In the summer he had to do ROTC stuff, but as a cadet he could fly space available on any US Air Force transport to anywhere in the  World for like $10 ( I did this too when I was in the Army). He would attend Origins and then do his summer ROTC training, and then return to CSU in the Autumn for college. Then he would come home to Colorado Springs to be with family for the Holidays. Because he wasn't around his regular Air Force war game group he would call us up, and invite us over to try out New Games, and that is how I ended up trying D&D, because he wanted to play that in December76/January77 instead of our regular wargames. When I asked where he got D&D, he said he picked it up at a convention during the previous summer.

That would have been Origins because he (like us), was a big SPI/AH fan. 76 was also the year they did the 3rd printing of like 5,000 brown boxed sets for D&D, right?

[ripx187]

Feb 17, 2017 21:26:45 GMT -5 @gronanofsimmerya said:

Sorry, no, you are WAY off base. Not even close. AH had NOTHING to do with CHAINMAIL at all. You'd have a lot better luck trying to trace CHAINMAIL through the miniatures wargaming hobby.


Get a copy of "Playing at the World," it will answer all these sorts of questions and more.

I bought Playing at the World, and it is awesome! So much information it feels like cheating. It definitely answers the questions that I've had. Thanks for the suggestion!

[Deleted]

Glad you like it!

[Deleted]

Interestingly, my VERY favorite part of "Playing at the World" is the stuff that covers the 18th and 19th century "Kriegsspiel" and how that became a civilian game.

[ripx187]

So far I really dig the chapters discussing the networking of the players and how it was established decades before the Internet. That was always something that I couldn't figure out; I was a child in the 70's, and always had an interest in games, my friends and I collected Star Wars toys, and we'd play together, but I spent a lot of time by myself, setting up figures and then mining other games for parts, I would have the toys fight, using a spinner I had found in a submarine game that determined if a figure had hit or not. I tried desperately to get other kids to play with me, but we never got past the setup stage, and the spinner was very slow, but then again, when I started fiddling with dice to speed it up, still nobody was interested. It never really evolved past that, though as an older kid, I invented a simple system that used playing cards, at that point I kept it a secret. Finding opponents locally was impossible, so I always played solitary, just for my own amusement. I even would buy strategy boardgames, but still no opponents. I didn't find a D&D game until after high school, we still play. I can sometimes get an opponent for a game of RISK, but that is about it. War games exist in a vacuum, the few who are out there are separated to the point where there is a weird sense of shame associated with it, at least for me there was. My dad considered it playing with toys, and being strange about it. It is a lonely hobby. So, it was cool to see how people who were older and wiser than I solved the problem. It is weird how quickly you can get a good D&D game up and running, but tabletop wargaming is still incredibly difficult, even among fringe groups who you'd thing would be into that kind of thing.

Anyways, sorry for babbling, and thank you again. I am actually finding solace in this book, which I wasn't expecting. 

[Admin Pete]

Thank you for sharing that, sorry that you had such a tough time finding players. I sometimes forget that not everyone grew up with lots of younger siblings and first cousins around. Happy that you are in a gaming group now!

[robkuntz]

Mar 9, 2017 21:31:52 GMT -5 dragondaddy said:

Mar 1, 2017 14:44:44 GMT -5 @gronanofsimmerya said:

The dearth of information about other companies in the General is DOUBLY hilarious in light of the fact that the D&D tournament at either Origins I or II, I don't remember which, drew 250 people... about a quarter of the attendees.

I think it was Origins II. My original GM was at the time Air Force ROTC, at Colorado State University in Fort Collins. In the summer he had to do ROTC stuff, but as a cadet he could fly space available on any US Air Force transport to anywhere in the  World for like $10 ( I did this too when I was in the Army). He would attend Origins and then do his summer ROTC training, and then return to CSU in the Autumn for college. Then he would come home to Colorado Springs to be with family for the Holidays. Because he wasn't around his regular Air Force war game group he would call us up, and invite us over to try out New Games, and that is how I ended up trying D&D, because he wanted to play that in December76/January77 instead of our regular wargames. When I asked where he got D&D, he said he picked it up at a convention during the previous summer.

That would have been Origins because he (like us), was a big SPI/AH fan. 76 was also the year they did the 3rd printing of like 5,000 brown boxed sets for D&D, right?

Yep.  We (TSR) smashed Origins 2 with the 'Barrier Peaks tourney designed by Gary and myself.  The entire staff was at the convention via a long drive in the TSR Van...

[Deleted]

Ah, yes, the proverbial two day drive...